The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

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Rob4Hope
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The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

Post by Rob4Hope » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:48 pm

Had a moment of reflection over the weekend. I was invited and participated in a Passover Feast given by a Jewish congregation. The food was delicious, the ceremony right out of antiquity, but something happened at the end: the guest speaker told how her contributions to the cause--her donations to the movement they were part of--had brought blessings. I wasn't surprised, but really did see similarities with the testimony meetings I am so familiar with. In this Jewish gathering, the woman told of how her donation was given in place of medical type treatment, and 2 weeks later the mamagram was completely clear--it was GOD's blessing that caused it to happen--or so the story went.

Same story, same line, different religion. But that is NOT what this post is about....but it was at this moment I had the following thought....

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Why it is, with so many resources and "intellectual power" at their reserve (BYU, graduates all over the country, some of the best writers and staff available)...why is it the church will not be forthcoming and tell the truth.

Its simple--the truth is not on their side. If they were to be honest, it would uproot the whole cart. They must prey like a parasite on the fears and gullibility of their congregations--because if they didn't, they would shrivel and die.

But, I also learned that its not just the LDS faith that must do this--there are many out there.

Frankly, I like this Jewish group (though I have no intention of converting). I like them because they are open with their donations. They explained right there what that money would be going for--among other things. That open-ness is kindof.....rare in these here parts...

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Hagoth
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Re: The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

Post by Hagoth » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:09 am

Great topic, Rob4hope,

The unpleasant relationship the church has with the truth is so bizarre and complex that it's almost comical. First of all, the truth will make you free, right? The problem here, of course, is that this statement is true; once you learn the truth about the church it will make you free - from the control of the church. That's a huge backfire.

The internet has really put the church in a tight squeeze because they lost all control of information about themselves. The old Boyd K. Packer approach of only telling faith-promoting stories because not all truth is useful could no longer be maintained. The next step was inoculation. but that has its own sticking points. For one thing, we're supposed to praise the church for releasing the essays because now they're REALLY telling the truth - which is a tacit admission that they weren't telling the truth before. Oops. But then they make it worse for themselves by constructing those essays around the very methodology that they attribute to Satan, that of only telling some of the truth to make your lie sound more convincing.

In the end, the truth itself turns out to be the the biggest enemy of the institution whose only value is its claim of being the only true church. Isn't that ironic?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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redjay
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Re: The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

Post by redjay » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:10 am

Power.

They will not risk relinquishing power.

Once you realise that it's at best an inspired mythology - there is little reason to give 10% gross and engage in the busy work.

Money will go down. Leader worship will evaporate and the boys at the top will be known as the ones who lost the ship - no leader will want that to happen on their watch.
At the halfway home. I'm a full-grown man. But I'm not afraid to cry.

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Silver Girl
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Re: The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

Post by Silver Girl » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:06 pm

Excellent OP. If the church had not feared the truth, it likely would not have killed off people who speak it. Unfortunately, history is now laden with the casualties of its attacks.
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achilles
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Re: The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

Post by achilles » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:48 am

You know, with the exception of folks like BKP (who clearly knew the "truth" and consciously taught that it wasn't "useful", using his influence to hide it), I think most of the leaders are still in shock about the dirty laundry that has been made manifest since the coming of the Information Age. These folks came of age in the 50s and 60s (!) I think many of them are just running down the clock. They don't want to really know this stuff, and understanding it's implications make the changes in the approach of the Church. It's amazing the things the human mind can do to maintain its fragile worldview.
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deacon blues
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Re: The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

Post by deacon blues » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:29 am

Silver Girl wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:06 pm
Excellent OP. If the church had not feared the truth, it likely would not have killed off people who speak it. Unfortunately, history is now laden with the casualties of its attacks.
Are you speaking metaphorically or literally?
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Re: The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

Post by Corsair » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:31 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:29 am
Silver Girl wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:06 pm
Excellent OP. If the church had not feared the truth, it likely would not have killed off people who speak it. Unfortunately, history is now laden with the casualties of its attacks.
Are you speaking metaphorically or literally?
Those rabble rousers spouting off uncomfortable history suffered literal spiritual death as a result of their apostasy. They no longer have the privilege of wearing garments and paying tithing! Some may now be further burdened with the habit of morning coffee. You have been warned.

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Rob4Hope
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Re: The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

Post by Rob4Hope » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:54 pm

achilles wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:48 am
You know, with the exception of folks like BKP (who clearly knew the "truth" and consciously taught that it wasn't "useful", using his influence to hide it), I think most of the leaders are still in shock about the dirty laundry that has been made manifest since the coming of the Information Age. These folks came of age in the 50s and 60s (!) I think many of them are just running down the clock. They don't want to really know this stuff, and understanding it's implications make the changes in the approach of the Church. It's amazing the things the human mind can do to maintain its fragile
I think this is probably as close to the truth as it gets. Speaking for my whole TBM life (which was quite long),...I got lazy mentally and spiritually: I had all the answers, so why dig deeper? This complacency settles in. And, I don't care who you are; when you get older and a little portly around the mid section--your mind and your ability to REALLY DIG into facts starts to wane. These guys who "rule and reign on high" come from that same place: they don't want to spend hours reading and studying--they have other things to do, like bare testimony of what "they know is true"--but have never really studied except the party line.

I agree with this quote above--I don't think they "really" want to know.

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deacon blues
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Re: The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

Post by deacon blues » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:02 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:29 am
Silver Girl wrote:
Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:06 pm
Excellent OP. If the church had not feared the truth, it likely would not have killed off people who speak it. Unfortunately, history is now laden with the casualties of its attacks.
Are you speaking metaphorically or literally?
I will add that although they may be relatively rare, there are cases where the LDS church contributed to the death of people: Kip Eliason, Lincoln Parkin, Harry Fischer, I'm sure there are many others. I feel I had a minor spiritual rebirth when my shelf broke. I call it minor, because it wasn't as dramatic as when I recovered from my first, worst depression. But I am convinced the church harms people, and one of the ways they do is by withholding truth.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Hagoth
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Re: The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

Post by Hagoth » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:45 pm

achilles wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:48 am
I think many of them are just running down the clock.
Absolutely. I also think they suffer from not-on-my-watch syndrome. They have dedicated their lives to the church and they have huge extended families that benefit enormously from their association with royalty and are soooo proud of Grandpa ProphetSeerAndRevelator. I suppose most people in that situation would just ride it out rather than being the spoil sport that let everyone down by bursting their bubbles? And then there are the nondisclosure agreements. What are the real-world consequences of pulling the cork off the genie's bottle?

And that's just if they came to the conclusion that it's all a bunch of hocus pocus. Anyone in that situation would also be highly motivated to keep the wool pulled over their own eyes for as long as possible. If cognitive dissonance is traumatizing for us normal folks imagine what it feels like to be the emperor realizing mid-parade that your goodies are dangling for all to see!
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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moksha
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Re: The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

Post by moksha » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:17 pm

I think the biggest fear is leaked financial records.
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Rob4Hope
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Re: The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

Post by Rob4Hope » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:25 pm

I can't believe how wishy-washy the idea of "TRUTH" has become.

What is "TRUTH"?....that is, centuries later, still a very good question.

I like the sciences because no matter how you stack it.... 1 + 1 = 2. Period.

Enter apologetics, and they smear the line, fudging this, convoluting that, until pretty soon you have no idea what you are even talking about. What is sad, is in order to protect against the "TRUTH",...they change the very meanings involved.

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Re: The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

Post by Vlad the Emailer » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:27 am

Rob4Hope wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:25 pm
What is sad, is in order to protect against the "TRUTH",...they change the very meanings involved.
Exactly. That's why I think the perfect analogy for TSCC is Bill, "it depends on what the definition of is is" Clinton. I am no longer a right winger, but I still consider Bill to be a complete scoundrel. The angry scowl he would get on his face while lying through his teeth was enough to make even a seasoned BSer like Jeff Holland proud!
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Re: The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

Post by LaMachina » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:55 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:25 pm
I can't believe how wishy-washy the idea of "TRUTH" has become.

What is "TRUTH"?....that is, centuries later, still a very good question.

I like the sciences because no matter how you stack it.... 1 + 1 = 2. Period.

Enter apologetics, and they smear the line, fudging this, convoluting that, until pretty soon you have no idea what you are even talking about. What is sad, is in order to protect against the "TRUTH",...they change the very meanings involved.
I very much agree with this. Science has performed admirably at uncovering truth. Apologetics takes liberties that change and distort meaning. However, I believe the reason they find such success with this is because truth is actually really hard to nail down. It requires nuance and complexity when people prefer 1+1=2 answers.

For example, I'm currently reading a book about bodies and health and the author delves into gut health and probiotics. There is a current trend to consume probiotics that is based on science but is so lacking in complex understanding and nuance that most of the health trend is not helping our microbiomes in any way. He says it's akin to saying "I wasn't feeling well so I took some drugs. I hear drugs are good right?"

I think it's too simple to say the church fears truth. As you say, conforming truth to fit into your worldview is too easy. I think they absolutely fear how people are changing worldviews, their changing epistemology and their rejection of authority claims.

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Re: The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

Post by 2bizE » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:41 am

I don't even know what truth is anymore. I doubt the church does either. The gospel used to be truth, now I see it differently. It is no longer truth for me, but is still truth for many people. I often wonder if what I currently believe is even truth. Maybe I am just as deceived with my current worldview as TBM are about the LDS truth. Both fact and truth are not always fact and truth. They change. Pluto used to be a full planet. Now it is not. JS was a prophet according to my ethnocentric viewpoint. Now he is not. The church certainly fears the truth, because it is ever changing. The church wants it's members to never progress in truth.
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Rob4Hope
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Re: The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

Post by Rob4Hope » Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:02 pm

2bizE wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:41 am
The church wants it's members to never progress in truth.
I believe this is a very honest astute answer. The church would of course deny this--but it is the way it really is.

The church wants the power to decide truth--what it is, what is looks like, how it is taught and interpreted, and how it is maintained. What is hilariously ironic is that deciding what the truth is is called propaganda, and the use of propaganda to control is actually what the LDS church says Satan's plans was--becoming a law unto himself.

How can the church do what it claims Satan does, and yet have that be acceptable because it somehow has a higher moral ground? Satan taught that the ends justify the means--I will save everyone by taking their agency away. And the church comes along and, guys like BKP say: "All truth is not useful..." (so lets control what we teach, deceiving and lieing along the way, because after all, the ends justify the means...

Hunh?

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Hagoth
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Re: The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

Post by Hagoth » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:14 pm

If you don't have evidence to support your claims it's really just another opinion.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Re: The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

Post by Corsair » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:35 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:14 pm
If you don't have evidence to support your claims it's really just another opinion.
This is why the LDS church relies on the witness of the spirit. I asked an apologist friend of mine what would happen if an honest investigator prayed about which Joseph Smith founded church he should join based on a basic testimony of the Book of Mormon. Could this platonic investigator be led to join the FLDS? CoC? AuB? Some other plural marriage based church? My apologist friend was quite confident that this investigator would inevitably be led to join the church led by Thomas Monson. The spirit would not possibly lead someone into a polygamous church (unlike in the 19th century).

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Re: The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

Post by Newme » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:36 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:48 pm
But, I also learned that its not just the LDS faith that must do this--there are many out there.
Yes, there are many out there who "can't handle the truth." It hurts their precious beliefs. Many would rather kiss a--- than seek or defend truth.

The other day I was thinking what an attractive man is to me now as far as character qualities - and it would be someone who cares more about truth than pleasing others.
2bizE wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:41 am
The church wants it's members to never progress in truth.
In that sense, the church is damning people - preventing them from moving on.
Church is in a way, "Hell's assisted living" - a place of lies and shifting blame.
So sad - so much needless suffering financially and psychologically - and yet some seem trapped - like an addiction they can't kick.

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Re: The biggest fear the LDS church has is TRUTH

Post by LaMachina » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:49 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:14 pm
If you don't have evidence to support your claims it's really just another opinion.
This is why I harp on epistemology. We are talking about a community that insists feelings ARE evidence and claims that anyone can discover this evidence if they just seek it out honestly.

The church is definitely uncomfortable with some of it's ugly historical truths. I'd argue, while not the right thing to do, it is pretty understandable. Anyone who has filled out a resume or gone on a first date understands how it can be. Sometimes the line gets fuzzy. I had on my resume that I'm fluent in a language but not why. I found including a mention of a LDS mission was not pertinent and would lead to questions I'd rather not get into cuz it's a little embarrassing now. Pretty innocuous omission. I had an employee who mentioned service rendered but it was only after we had worked together for a while that she admitted it was court appointed service for a crime she had committed in her youth. A little less innocent but we laughed about it. I'm sure we all know stories where similar things are not a laughing matter.

I have huge issues with Packer's "not all truth is useful" stance but his claim is, perhaps ironically, not untrue? I think I find the new openness much more disturbing or at least how some people react to it. I'm sure we've all seen it; people defending a 40 year old man marrying a 14 year old, claiming seer stones are like I-phones, even occasionally mildly defending the indefensible like the Mountain Meadows Massacre?? People in general find it way too easy to incorporate something into their worldview even if, or perhaps BECAUSE, it makes them uncomfortable.

What I find funny about all this is the "other side", whatever it happens to be, says exactly the same thing. Apostates or competing religions or atheists/agnostics can't handle the truth, they are lying to themselves because the truth makes them uncomfortable, they are propagandists, they are fools, they have not looked closely enough at the facts.

Personally, I think the only way through this is to get people to talk about WHY they believe what they believe. It certainly won't get through to everyone but in my personal experience it has been the only method that has taken the edge off and has caused people to stop and think about what they claim as truth for a minute.

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