Replacing the New Order Mormon

[Hagoth]

Doc, that's a fascinating observarion. I think it underscores the fact that the LDS church isn't really about doctrines and beliefs nearly as much as it is about obedience and devotion. The Brethren could radically changed a core doctrine and the "good" members would immediately fall in line and change their beliefs correspondingly. All that counts is that they're followingtheprophet. Many would likely double-down on the new doctrine and desparage those who didn't change course without reservation. Someday it will be a a given that you embrace the hat and stone, while magic spectacle believers will be considered embarrassing throwbacks.

The entire membership could adapt a NOM-like attitude toward many aspects of the church as long as they remain undyingly devoted to its governing body.

ETA: sorry about the threadjack.

[Corsair]

We have shifted with the scale, placing us into a different position. I don't think that it is a bad thing. A lot of the complaints that I had as a NOM about the lack of nuance 10 years ago have actually been addressed. I'm out for different reasons now, but it does make me wonder whether the shift is helping members who are now like I was.

The difference in tone is not being particularly matched in correlated lesson manuals or greater choices in the individual lives of members. Kate Kelly raised some very interesting ideas with female ordination and the LDS church has not systematically answered her questions other than her excommunication. They could have done something interesting and transformative but the church largely remains at status quo.

The restrictions in the Word of Wisdom remain in place as largely a marketing sign of identifying a faithful Mormon rather than a true plan for healthy living. I can drink a six pack of Double Monsters but if I brew one cup of green tea my temple recommend is seriously in question. Ir's not specified if the Word of Wisdom is a policy (which could reasonably be changed) or doctrine (thus coffee is an eternally evil substance).

Personal transformation to become more like Christ consistently takes a back seat to preservation of the institutional church and obedience to prophets. Prophets must always be obeyed like they have face to face meetings with God, but also must be forgiven like they were fallen, humble sinners.

[Mad Jax]

If we're getting renamed my vote goes to "The Secret Combination."

[Grace2Daisy]

The main difference that I see is that old NOMs were trying to find a place for themselves within the church where they could serve and somehow be understood and accepted, and that they could focus on what they still found to be "true" about the church. New NOMs have more or less given up on that pipe dream and are looking for a way to survive and be happy despite the church, but they are still attached in some way to a church that they either can't leave or that won't leave them alone.

In addition to that, NOM is a wonderful landing spot for people in transition, and (possibly its most important function) as a place to help people realize that they're not crazy for no longer believing in angels with gold plates and Garden of Eden in Missouri.

Hagoth. . . . . you have painted a perfect picture of me in NOM 1.0 and NOM 2.O!

[Hagoth]

Hagoth. . . . . you have painted a perfect picture of me in NOM 1.0 and NOM 2.O!

Great to have you back, G2D!

[crossmyheart]

The main difference that I see is that old NOMs were trying to find a place for themselves within the church where they could serve and somehow be understood and accepted, and that they could focus on what they still found to be "true" about the church. New NOMs have more or less given up on that pipe dream and are looking for a way to survive and be happy despite the church, but they are still attached in some way to a church that they either can't leave or that won't leave them alone.
In addition to that, NOM is a wonderful landing spot for people in transition, and (possibly its most important function) as a place to help people realize that they're not crazy for no longer believing in angels with gold plates and Garden of Eden in Missouri.

Hagoth. . . . . you have painted a perfect picture of me in NOM 1.0 and NOM 2.O!

Me too. NOM 1.0 I was trying to stay in the boat as a stowaway... NOM 2.0 I am doggie paddling on the side of the boat trying to convince my DH to jump in- the water is fine!

[document]

I am doggie paddling on the side of the boat trying to convince my DH to jump in- the water is fine!

We had a long and hard winter this year and finally the weather is turning around. I have been sitting in my office looking at the sun and getting ready for the pool this weekend.

I just had a massive fit of jealousy with just the thought of treading water in the river.

*Sigh*

[MalcolmVillager]

I am doggie paddling on the side of the boat trying to convince my DH to jump in- the water is fine!

We had a long and hard winter this year and finally the weather is turning around. I have been sitting in my office looking at the sun and getting ready for the pool this weekend.

I just had a massive fit of jealousy with just the thought of treading water in the river.

*Sigh*

I told DW that the Lord can have our depressing, crappy, winter days but this summer we are going to hike and camp and whatever on nice Sundays. We don't get enough if them here I Eastern Idaho.

She agreed. We will see how that goes. She even recommended missing as much of June as possible because it is all about the PH in YW and she doesn't want to teach it or hear it.

She is starting to see that the water is fine.

[moksha]

Come New Order Mormons (1.0)
Who post one and all
Be nuanced as such
to answer the call
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no telling where it is landing.
For the (dis)believer now might someday win
Cause the times they are a-changing.

[document]

Moksha,

Greatest. Post. Ever.

[wtfluff]

I am doggie paddling on the side of the boat trying to convince my DH to jump in- the water is fine!

We had a long and hard winter this year and finally the weather is turning around. I have been sitting in my office looking at the sun and getting ready for the pool this weekend.

I just had a massive fit of jealousy with just the thought of treading water in the river.

*Sigh*

[GoodBoy]

I can tell you from my own experience in early transition, this board (NOM 1.0) seemed like satan's den to me. Then I progressed more and it seems mellow now.

Yep. I felt like I should spend more time over at StayLDS but always found the conversations here more real and interesting and they seemed to still be making excuses for the church over there.

The Ex-Mormon Reddit also seemed to have gone too far the other way... anything the church did was horrible, cruel, idiotic, and mean-spirited, which I also don't think is true.

[Corsair]

Yep. I felt like I should spend more time over at StayLDS but always found the conversations here more real and interesting and they seemed to still be making excuses for the church over there.

I may have to lurk over there and see how the conversations unfold.

The Ex-Mormon Reddit also seemed to have gone too far the other way... anything the church did was horrible, cruel, idiotic, and mean-spirited, which I also don't think is true.

Reddit has a lot of anger and emotion on it. A lot of teenagers and even a few currently serving missionaries show up there in their faith crisis. No doubt the vitriol is over the top. But I have seen a lot of very polite answers to believers who ask serious questions. Still, I'm pretty sure that /r/exmormon burns more bridges than it builds.

[Conman52]

This board is most certainly different than Nom 1.0 and we are not the angry exmormon crowd on reddit. We have changed and I am thankful for more members being more nuanced. I believe the future of the church is its going to continue drifting to a centrist position closer to main stream christianity as it has done for several years now. The tscc may not recognizable in 25 years !!

[Just This Guy]

I have been a NOM member for just over 10 years now.

I first discovered NOM 1.0 in October 2013, in the weeks after A lawsuit as publicly announced with my local stake leadership being accused of covering up and actively aiding in the child molestation committed by the son of the 1st counselor in the SP. I was reeling at the time. ByCommonConsent seamed like they were ignoring or whitewashing many known issues. Exmormon.org was too angry for my taste. NOM was a nice middle ground. They were not afraid to look at issues, but were reasonable. They would look at both sides and go off the evidence. As an Engineer, the evidence based look at religion was a great way to look at things. Of course, by getting to be an active member there, it also introduced me to a lot more issues that I wasn't aware of, as well as new ways of looking at things. Within a month, I was looking at the BoA, and reading that from a outsider perspective. That shattered my shelf and what was left of my testimony.

Back then, it seamed like it was trying to be a centrist view on Mormonism. Acknowledge the bad, but also the good and try to find a soft landing. I would guess at the time, NOM was ~15% TBM, ~50% people trying to make it work, and ~35% post Mormon. Fast forward a decade, and I would guess it is probably ~80% post Mormon (may or may not be attending or even members any more), ~15% people trying to make it work, and 5% other. For the most part, it is group therapy for people as they try to move past Mormonism.

[Mayan_Elephant]

I have been a NOM member for just over 10 years now.

I first discovered NOM 1.0 in October 2013, in the weeks after A lawsuit as publicly announced with my local stake leadership being accused of covering up and actively aiding in the child molestation committed by the son of the 1st counselor in the SP. I was reeling at the time. ByCommonConsent seamed like they were ignoring or whitewashing many known issues. Exmormon.org was too angry for my taste. NOM was a nice middle ground. They were not afraid to look at issues, but were reasonable. They would look at both sides and go off the evidence. As an Engineer, the evidence based look at religion was a great way to look at things. Of course, by getting to be an active member there, it also introduced me to a lot more issues that I wasn't aware of, as well as new ways of looking at things. Within a month, I was looking at the BoA, and reading that from a outsider perspective. That shattered my shelf and what was left of my testimony.

Back then, it seamed like it was trying to be a centrist view on Mormonism. Acknowledge the bad, but also the good and try to find a soft landing. I would guess at the time, NOM was ~15% TBM, ~50% people trying to make it work, and ~35% post Mormon. Fast forward a decade, and I would guess it is probably ~80% post Mormon (may or may not be attending or even members any more), ~15% people trying to make it work, and 5% other. For the most part, it is group therapy for people as they try to move past Mormonism.

I wandered in here about 20 years ago. I have been here for Dathon, Arch, Peggy, Ann, Froggie, Thayne, and now the new guard. I agree with your assessment.

I find the transition interesting. I see value in all of it. I see navigating life as an exmormon just as interesting as doing so as an active mormon or one with feet in and heart/head out. I see the challenges in all of those phases and I acknowledge that they are all real.

I suppose I have given up on moving past Mormonism, though I recognize the need for others do so. I am a resigned member. I damn sure am not going back. I simply don't feel like I need a wall around me or a divide between me and others who still attend or believe. I am fine not saying things that could be triggering for a Mormon and bowing my head while someone says the same damn stupid prayer before we eat as if it will cause the food to do us the good we need.

JTG, I like your points and your view of this. I like them a lot. Even if we apply those shared views differently, yours is a good take.

[Ghost]

Years ago, I used to strongly resist (in my mind) the oft-voiced idea that the "middle way" was inevitably temporary and that no one would continue to try to make it work in the long term. I guess I didn't want my future to be that easily predictable.

I still identify more with the NOM label than any other, though I'd never use the term with someone not already familiar because it has a strange sound. If anything, I guess I'd still say that I'm a heterodox Mormon. Which of course makes it hard to really fit in with those who are angry or indifferent and those who are still devout, but I'm used to that now after so many years.

I don't know how new people even find this place anymore, since the discussion forum format itself is at least as much a relic as the original optimistic concept of a NOM approach now seems to me. (Though I personally much prefer a site like this to social media, which most of the time seems like a cancer.)

[Red Ryder]

Years ago, I used to strongly resist (in my mind) the oft-voiced idea that the "middle way" was inevitably temporary and that no one would continue to try to make it work in the long term. I guess I didn't want my future to be that easily predictable.

I still identify more with the NOM label than any other, though I'd never use the term with someone not already familiar because it has a strange sound. If anything, I guess I'd still say that I'm a heterodox Mormon. Which of course makes it hard to really fit in with those who are angry or indifferent and those who are still devout, but I'm used to that now after so many years.

I don't know how new people even find this place anymore, since the discussion forum format itself is at least as much a relic as the original optimistic concept of a NOM approach now seems to me. (Though I personally much prefer a site like this to social media, which most of the time seems like a cancer.)

Great thoughts.

I like to use the heterodox Mormon label for a few close family and friends who find it important (to them at least) that I maintain a Mormon label.

For others, I will let them know I grew up Mormon but don’t practice anymore. That seems to generate enough sympathy or curiosity to continue a conversation.

For other situations I prefer a polytheistic explanation that suits my level of disclosure. I like Hagoth’s idea of worshipping the Sky god or worshipping under the church if the big blue dome.

The NOM label will always feel comfortable in terms of my long term participation here and the NOM 1.0 board. It feels like an old ward that has grown together over the years and celebrates when people that moved along come back for a quick update. For me NOM was never about the middle way, but rather the search for ideas and answers living with a Mormon spouse in a mixed faith marriage. Ya’ll became my sounding board. Many my internet friends while a few my real life friends that I have cherished over all these years.

As we roll into 2024, this question becomes extremely valid again. The board doesn’t advertise, new people don’t sign up very often, and conversations and posts have started to fade. I’ve had a few conversations with Corsair and Hagoth about what’s next? How long do we keep this going?

I’ve had various thoughts about trying to rebrand to the PIMO crowd who just wants to continue the same conversations in longer form. Or who are looking for like minded individuals to share their experiences and wisdom. I’ve even promoted the site on my minimal comments on the various Mormon and exmo Reddit boards. Ran into a few former Nommies along the way which is always fun.

I’ve had a few thoughts about extending an invitation to the At Last She Said it Podcast to create space here for their longer form conversations. They have made an effort to monetize a portion of their content through Substack and provided a way to chat on Fridays to discuss their episodes. I wholly agree with anyone that can monetize their content. But the long form conversation is still missing and the format is a bit wack!

Or do we let this place go the way of all the others before it and let it rest? Things to think about but for now we’ve committed to another year.

[Mayan_Elephant]

Or do we let this place go the way of all the others before it and let it rest? Things to think about but for now we’ve committed to another year.

Some things expire. Including relationships and including conversations.

There are two things I do not want for NOM, though my wishes are not demands. The first thing I do not want is extinction. I hope this forum lives on. The second thing I do not want is for this to be just like all the other exmo forums that evolve into a parallel but different ideology club.

The exmo forums that just throw darts at the church and host snark and sarcasm are cliche and not interesting. The ones that host snark and sarcasm and censor the everloving hell out of dissent are not interesting either. Nobody needs a forum for that. The podcasts and conversations about the Book of Abraham and the CES Letter? C'mon, can we get serious finally? How many times can we skim that? Besides Paul Osborne, I don't see much going on that is clever. The constant bashing of Daniel Peterson for being a career apologist with a big belly is not more interesting than the decades of rants by hobby anti-apologists with big bellies.

Asking folks to advertise here or just chime in will not do much. I recommend focusing on the quality not the quantity. If there was a Sunday breakfast rendezvous like old timers with old cars at the diner - that would be interesting. Nothing fancy. Nothing formal. Maybe one person shows up and maybe four or more. Obviously, folks are scattered all over and this won't work for everyone. But if people don't have a reason to be interested, they won't have a reason to be interesting. Sometimes it takes a face and a laugh and a beer and a handshake to change things up.

[Not Buying It]

I was active on NOM for a long, long time - under a different username for many years, and then after doxxing myself like an idiot one Halloween unmasking, in 2016 had to switch to my present username.

When I first joined NOM, the "middle way" really was the ethos. I was perhaps not as patient with that approach as I should have been, and perhaps posted some things not in keeping with that ethos. Mine was not a voice who supported that, for better or worse. But there was a time I really needed this site - I had no one else to talk to, this was pretty much it, and I will be forever grateful to a community of people I never met in person where I could process my feelings about discovering the Church wasn't what it claimed to be.

I don't know that I blame anyone at NOM for making this forum less "middle way" focused over the years - I will always maintain the Church itself makes a "middle way" an untenable option. When someone said earlier in this (very old) discussion that the forum had become more like group therapy, I think that was inevitable. Mormonism is a "my way or the highway" religion.

I don't come by much anymore - I am one of the lucky ones, a few years ago the spouse I never thought would come around listened to a YouTube personality who was saying the same thing I'd been telling her for years (I'm just glad she finally listened to somebody), and we are well and truly out. I have some survivor's guilt over that, because I know for many of you it won't work out that way.

I think there will always be a need for a place where those stuck in the Church with no hope of escape can come and find their people, a place where they can find a listening ear, a place where they can process, a place where they can find acceptance. That is what NOM was for me. I hope that is what NOM will always be for anyone who needs it like I did.