Replacing the New Order Mormon

[document]

I've been listening (as have many) to the archives of Mormon Expression. I listened through them all before, many of them as they were being released. There are three fascinating early episodes on what it means to be Mormon, chapel vs. Internet Mormons, and New Order Mormons that spawned considerable thought in me.

When I started doubting in earnest in 2008, I felt alone. The only answer that the church gave was absolute orthodoxy. When I spoke to my bishop about my more cafeteria approach, I was silenced and pushed to the side. People I knew thought that what I was saying was dangerous and that I was skirting on the edge of apostasy. I was in this "no-man's" land for about three years.

I wanted to remain Mormon because I saw real good in the church, my family was LDS, and this was my culture. I didn't believe in everything the church taught, but I believed enough to keep me in, although I did grind occasionally against strict orthodox "all true" and black-white thinking. I was a nuanced Mormon. I discovered this website in 2011 and it was an amazing experience because here were a bunch of Mormons, most still in to some extent that had more nuanced views.

When I was running today, I was listening to Tom defend the church in a very 2009 NOM fashion. He even said something like, "If you have to label me, I guess New Order Mormon? But I prefer to be called a Mormon". His, at the time, was an uncommon way to vocalize beliefs in the Mormon church. At the time, what I heard at church and from my friends was more a Mike Tannehill rather than a NOM point of view.

That seems to be changing. My friends and family in the way that they speak of the church, would 9 years ago be considered "fringe" or "NOM". But they are becoming more mainstream. It seems to me that there are less and less Mike Tannehills in the world of Mormonism. My friends and family are full on believers, but with the essays and increased levels of inoculation, it has forced many members to become more nuanced.

The church has shifted significantly in the past 10 years, although it happened so gradually I didn't notice until I listened to old Mormon Expression podcasts. They haven't changed their "one true" stance, but it went from "Rocks in a hat are anti-Mormon lies" to "Seer stones are real and isn't it wonderful?", they went from "Joseph was near perfect" to "Give Joseph a break". I've even had formerly super-orthodox Mormon friends go from "The church is perfect" to saying things like, "The church isn't perfect, but it is great for my life".

So, my question is. What is NOM? I think we have shifted to a "less angry than ex-Mormon transition board" more than anything. The original vision from LDSMan I think is gone. We are a collection of non-believers (give or take a few) that have family still in. The shifting of orthodoxy to NOM from the church has given a place to some people like me 10 years ago. That shift, I think, has eliminated the need for NOM as it was and become something further, but still not vitriolic.

What do you think?

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

I can tell you from my own experience in early transition, this board (NOM 1.0) seemed like satan's den to me. Then I progressed more and it seems mellow now.

[Hagoth]

There has definitely been a change from the NOM that LDSMan created to the NOM 2.0 of today. The main difference that I see is that old NOMs were trying to find a place for themselves within the church where they could serve and somehow be understood and accepted, and that they could focus on what they still found to be "true" about the church. New NOMs have more or less given up on that pipe dream and are looking for a way to survive and be happy despite the church, but they are still attached in some way to a church that they either can't leave or that won't leave them alone.

In addition to that, NOM is a wonderful landing spot for people in transition, and (possibly its most important function) as a place to help people realize that they're not crazy for no longer believing in angels with gold plates and Garden of Eden in Missouri.

[Bloodhound98]

NOM is a great site. I have been perusing several sites and NOM has the best non-angry members! I always find myself coming back here. The community here is great!

[deacon blues]

Like Doc, I felt alone after my shelf broke for about two years. NOM 1.0 was a great help and support. The church may be slooowly evolving away from the Joseph Fielding Smith/Boyd Packer worldview of my youth. My NOM daughter seems to be finding some support, mainly from her husband, perhaps my grand kids will see a more accommodating church in the future.Currently, It largely depends on leadership roulette at the local level.

[LaMachina]

I think we have shifted to a "less angry than ex-Mormon transition board" more than anything.

Yep, I agree, that's what we are now.

I've also noticed the softening trend of some of my more believing friends and family. Also, the individuals I know who are still hardcore tend to keep it to themselves more often as they know they will get push back.

That said, and this is just my personal feeling and is not a condemnation of this place at all, I find the occasional "Mormons are such morons" thread or comment frustrating. I know this is a place to vent and I get it, I just find that notion unfair.

Initially I viewed the middle way as me staying in somehow. I now view it as trying to understand that while the church does not work for me anymore it still works quite well for some. I try and call people on what I feel is bullcrap but I try to do it from that understanding and not from a "burn it all down!!" perspective. I understand others may not feel that way.

And that's probably why I still hang around. This place, while definitely more on the ex-believer side, tends to be less hostile than other boards.

[Not Buying It]

C'mon, really though, just how viable was the "middle way" vision NOM originally held anyway? I kind of think it was doomed from the start. The Church doesn't accept that kind of member even exists, and when it does encounter them doesn't know what to do with them. It's an "all or nothing" Church. There is no "middle way" really.

My sense is most people here are out mentally but forced by family considerations to attend physically. "Fake it until something changes" is a far more apt description than trying to walk a "middle way" for most of us. I don't think most of us really want to attend Church the way the "middle way" sort of member would, most of us who attend aren't attending because we want to.

Or am I reading everyone else here wrong?

[Mormorrisey]

I think the shifts in how NOMs are viewed in the larger church depends on where you live, leadership roulette, and a host of other factors. But I also think that the church around us has changed too - while some areas have more patience for progressive, NOMish voices, many other wards have doubled down (take a look at Misbehaved Woman's introductory post for a great example of a doubled down RS lesson!!) on the "Satan has a hold on your hearts, just listen to prophets" mantra that annoys most of us here. Unfortunately, apart from a few Silver Fox examples, I'm starting to think that the doubling down is going to be the preferred method going forward.

How we view ourselves, well, that's another matter. I lurked here for months because I wasn't quite sure how the mission statement of the old NOM board fit me - I surely wasn't trying to make it work for me, I hated Mormon culture, and was a typical attending apostate who tried not to make waves with a believing family. That was it. Yet I found the diversity of voices here wonderful. However, I think from what I've said above, that the church is in the midst of a doubling down on belief period, that the NOM as initially conceived is a vanishing breed. It's the church itself that will not allow for a middle way, not those who choose that path. In that way, I must concur with Not Buying It on this point, and perhaps that is why NOM 2.0 is so different from its predecessor.

[LaMachina]

C'mon, really though, just how viable was the "middle way" vision NOM originally held anyway? I kind of think it was doomed from the start. The Church doesn't accept that kind of member even exists, and when it does encounter them doesn't know what to do with them. It's an "all or nothing" Church. There is no "middle way" really.

Totally anecdotal but I know SO many who could be described as NOM but might be called Jack mormons by others. Not the majority but a goodly number. When we or others stopped attending a common response from them was -Why are you making a big deal out of this? That's not important.

Most of that was in response to historical issues. They agreed it was unsavory but found the benefits worth sticking around for.

The LDS church is probably far more "all or nothing" than many faiths and certainly insists on orthopraxy more than others but I find there are plenty of cafeteria types. I guess it remains to be seen who wins out, the double downers or the reformers. I admit that based on who's in line for leadership and the number of sane, good people leaving, the immediate future doesn't look promising.

[Red Ryder]

NOM has morphed into nothing more than group therapy. Essentially, a replacement for something evidently lost or lacking in the church.

My therapist thinks I should quit and fill the headspace with something more productive.

[document]

My therapist thinks I should quit and fill the headspace with something more productive.

I like having you around, so I'm going to try to discredit your therapist.

They probably are looking at porn. Don't trust them.

[Korihor]

I admit, I have cheated on y'all and posted on other boards.

NOM has morphed into nothing more than group therapy. Essentially, a replacement for something evidently lost or lacking in the church.

My therapist thinks I should quit and fill the headspace with something more productive.

RR might I suggest https://www.thumpertalk.com/
It is very desirable and delicious to the taste. (I lick the screen at some of the pics, don't judge me)

Yes, the NOM is changing breed. The middle way is a temporary place. Just like we are begging for the church to change, we shouldn't be surprised when we change. Respectively, we should expect the ideals of a board such as NOM to change over time.

[Lithium Sunset]

NOM has morphed into nothing more than group therapy. Essentially, a replacement for something evidently lost or lacking in the church.

My therapist thinks I should quit and fill the headspace with something more productive.

A therapy/support group.
Well.. therapists are not always right but you know what they say, balance in everything. I do think your stories are irreplaceable so we would all be missing out tremendously if you abandoned NOM completely. But it's not about us, it's about what you need. If you think she is correct then you know what you need to do.

As far as replacing the New Order Mormon,

I hate labels... haven't we all had enough of those. Label free... that is the way to go. If you want to be here, be here. If you don't, then don't. I was grateful to find this place when I hit information overload and I have stayed here because I find value in what is said and in the people behind the computer. Plus it is a safe place to come when I am feeling discouraged about my TBM family and friends.
I love being presented with different view points... so refreshing. I accept that people are on different journeys and different places in their journey and I support them. I may not have much to add as far as intelligent insight but I sure do enjoy reading it. We were suckered and that we have in common. And when others say that this is a less harsh board I take that as people here are fundamentally kind and caring, like me.

[20/20hind]

The next policy to come out in November 2017 will be...children of nom parent's cannot be baptized into the church until the age of 18. And only after they disavow their parent's nomness.

Over all i think you are correct. I joined the original board in 2011 also. There is a different vibe for this one.

Change is good. But also difficult for some people.

Nom totally worked out for John Dehlin. He ended up on the lds most wanted list for excommunication.

[Emower]

Initially when I joined I thought "hey, here's a group of people who can help me stick with it mentally, and provide support that can allow me to make a difference in my faith, the people around me, and make a difference in the church as a whole." I moved past that stage pretty dadgummed fast.
I think NOM is whatever anyone needs it to be at the time. You need therapy? We got it. You need to vent? We will vent with you. If you need uplifting in your faith we can do that as well. It's a community. Yes, I think we can expect change, but not change in one direction. We can change forward, back, to the side, up, down, and all in between. Kind of like life.

[Rob4Hope]

I admit, I have cheated on y'all and posted on other boards.

NOM has morphed into nothing more than group therapy. Essentially, a replacement for something evidently lost or lacking in the church.

My therapist thinks I should quit and fill the headspace with something more productive.

RR might I suggest https://www.thumpertalk.com/
It is very desirable and delicious to the taste. (I lick the screen at some of the pics, don't judge me)

Gawd...I laughed so hard when I read this!

Now seriously, I like this NOM site...and I still consider myself a new comer. Don't you all be leaving now...some of us need you to stick around....

[Hagoth]

My therapist thinks I should quit and fill the headspace with something more productive.

NOM is my therapist. I have learned more about how to cope with life issues from the amazing people here than just about anywhere else. The think I really like about NOM is that I can use it with so much flexibility. It makes no demands of me. When something is really causing me heartache/burn I can unload here. When I find interesting things I can share them here. If I want to read moving stories about people's lives, or learn from the successes and failures of others, I can do that here. When everything is running smoothly and I'm busy with other things I can step away for a while. NOM doesn't put pressure on me to be a NOM, it only accepts me for who I am.

[deacon blues]

My therapist thinks I should quit and fill the headspace with something more productive.

NOM is my therapist. I have learned more about how to cope with life issues from the amazing people here than just about anywhere else. The think I really like about NOM is that I can use it with so much flexibility. It makes no demands of me. When something is really causing me heartache/burn I can unload here. When I find interesting things I can share them here. If I want to read moving stories about people's lives, or learn from the successes and failures of others, I can do that here. When everything is running smoothly and I'm busy with other things I can step away for a while. NOM doesn't put pressure on me to be a NOM, it only accepts me for who I am.

Amen. This is a place where I can say what I think. Thanks for all the accepting people here.

[blazerb]

I don’t post much here, but I like having this community available. Maybe we are a “less angry than ex-Mormon transition board,” but that’s not all bad. I think the Church is becoming more nuanced, but it will take a while before questioners are truly welcome. I don’t live in an area with many members. Without this board, I have two choices in my group of friends. I can be with the true believers who accept no criticism of the Church or its leaders. This is the group I can find at meetings each week. On the other hand, I can be with people who have virtually no exposure to Mormonism and cannot understand why I would be so compelled to participate in something that I don’t believe in. On this board, I can find some who understand at least a little of my dilemma while I continue to make needed changes in my life. I like this site.

P.S. I agree with Not Buying It that the middle way was never viable. I think that extends to the Church as a whole. I would predict that either it will become a small group of true believers that refuse to examine the actual record or it will have a much smaller set of beliefs and a mission very different from the one laid out by previous leaders.

[document]

It's been fascinating reading the responses. I realized that the title didn't quite accurately say what I was trying to say. My post was not an intent to criticize the NOM board (I love it, hence why I'm here) or even to question why it is here.

A former bishop told me once that he was considered a far-right republican in his hometown in Connecticut. He was a true-blue Mormon and a red republican in a mostly liberal town. He then took a nuke job out west and started working in a highly conservative area. When he came here his political views had not changed but everyone in his new town thought of him as a left-centrist. The scale had shifted. Because his political views didn't change, his place on the scale shifted.

I guess my original post was trying to point out that the scale had significantly shifted over the last ten or so years. Here was the original scale:

Code: Select all

-x---------------------------------x--------------------------------------------x-
TBM                               NOM                                         EXMO

It's now shifted to more of a:

Code: Select all

-x---------------------------x------------------------------x------------------x-
FM                          TBM                            NOM               EXMO

(FM = Fundamentalist member)

The TBM of 10 years ago is closer to a die-hard today. The NOM of 10 years ago is closer to a TBM today. The only one that I see that hasn't changed at all is the ex-Mormon.

We've noticed this trend, the church softens their position and always have moving towards a more centrist position. They are baby steps, but it is difficult, especially in hearing these old ME podcasts, to not notice the monumental shift in nuanced understanding of history in doctrine from both the institution and the member over the last ten years.

We have shifted with the scale, placing us into a different position. I don't think that it is a bad thing. A lot of the complaints that I had as a NOM about the lack of nuance 10 years ago have actually been addressed. I'm out for different reasons now, but it does make me wonder whether the shift is helping members who are now like I was.