Getting the name of God and Christ wrong

[el-asherah]

I'm new to this board, I thought it might be a good idea to expression one of the key items that was on my shelf.

Getting the name of deity right in Mormonism is a big deal.

Mormons go to great lengths to point out the name of the church has Christ name in it, so it be must be his church, and the temple tells us the correct name of God.

Name of God
The Masons at the time of Joseph Smith believed they had lost the true name of God, so Joseph Smith reveals the Masonic True Name of God in the following Q&A revelation.
A Sample of pure Language given by Joseph the Seer
http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... rch-1832/1 
Q What is the name of God in pure Language A Awmen.
Q The meaning of the pure word A[w]men A It is the being which made all things in all its parts.

Awmen really? really? That is the best he can do? When do Mormons every refer to God as Awmen? This is just plain weird.

The name of God per the LDS temple endowment is suppose to be Elohim.

But Elohim is the name of the Canaanite pantheon of Gods (think Old Testament Baal and Asherah) , see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim#Canaanite_religion
The whole history of ancient Israel is trying to stamp out the Canaanite idol cults of the Elohim and replace it with Yahweh, the Moabite God that Moses discovers on Sinai. This process over hundreds of centuries was done by redefining what the word meant.

Mormons really have no clue what the name of God is. Elohim is flat out wrong and comes from ancient Canaanite idol cults that predate Israel.

Name of Christ
So what is the actual true name of Christ? the name given to Mary by the angel (and corrected by Joseph Smith in the Inspired Translation of the Bible), JESUS!

WRONG

The correct name is Yehoshua (Aramaic), which is often shortened to Yeshua.
The best English translation we have today for the name of Christ Yeshua is JOSHUA.
So how did we get Jesus and how did all of Christianity get it wrong? The name was corrupted as it was translated over the centuries from Aramaic, to Greek, to Latin, to German, to English. The biggest corruption occurred going into Greek. Yeshua ends with “a” which is feminine in Greek, can't have the Son of God be feminine so the suffix was changed to “s” (as in masculine Zeus), in Greek the name became Iesous.

The real name of Christ may seem pedantic to some, but it was a big deal on my shelf since the name has been clearly corrupted, and the Church claims to have continuing revelation, and claims the Bible was not translated correctly. But the church can't get the name of Christ or God right either.

I know a name is just a label so we all know what each other is talking about. Since Christianity gets the name of Jesus wrong, Mormons just followed suit so everyone is speaking the same language. However, at a minimum one would expect Jesus used in external messaging and Joshua in internal messaging within the church (this never happens).

External and internal messaging

• The apostles were a special witness of Christ. This was changed to a special witness of the NAME of Christ. When was the last time the apostles have witnessed to the NAME of Christ? Never, I doubt they know the real name of Christ.
  The name of the Church is wrong, it should be Church of Yeshua (Joshua) Mashiach (Messiah) of Latter Day Saints.
  BoM is wrong, in that early references made to Jesus are anachronistic, centuries before the corruption from Yeshua to Jesus occurred. In 3rd Nephi, Christ refers to himself as Jesus, long before the name corruptions could have occurred, again anachronistic.
  BoM is another Testament of Josuhua
  Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible (JST), every reference to Jesus is wrong

Internal Messaging

• Every prayer in General Conference and church - and I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ, who? I say these things in the name of Joshua
  D&C revelations are wrong, Christ speaking in the FIRST PERSON says his name is Jesus. Why would Christ not know what is own name is? Or reveal his real name to insiders within the church?
  Every single journal entry from every early church leader never mentions Christs real name of Joshua.

Seems to me Mormons should drop the pretense that they are right about knowing the name of God or Christ, or have the correct name in the name of the church, or the apostles are special witnesses to his name. It is very clear that the JST Bible, BoM, D&C are not translated correctly wrt to the name of God or Christ.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Don't forget the whole confusion over Jehovah being referred to as the father up until the 20th century when Talmage untangled that mess and the first presidency had to roll out a declaration on the Godhead. Good times.

[MoPag]

Interesting stuff! Welcome to the board!

[el-asherah]

Don't forget the whole confusion over Jehovah being referred to as the father up until the 20th century when Talmage untangled that mess and the first presidency had to roll out a declaration on the Godhead. Good times.

Thanks for reminding me of the whole Godhead mess. Years ago I worked this out, maybe someone can correct my understanding of this mess.

Evolution of the Godhead

Early Joseph Smith and BoM, early versions of the first vision,book of commandments, Modalism or Sabellianism

God=Jehovah=Jesus=Father=Son=Holy Ghost= Creator of the world
Michael=Adam?
Elohim not referred to?
Awmen not referred to?

Joseph Smith Lectures on Faith,

God=Jehovah=Father=Holy Ghost (spirit of God) = Creator of the world
Jesus=Son
Michael=Adam?
Elohim not referred to?
Awmen not referred to?

Later Joseph Smith, final version of the first vision, later D&C

God=Jehovah=Awmen=Father= Creator of the world
Jesus=Son
Holy Ghost
Michael=Adam
Elohim not referred to?

Brigham Young , Adam God, first written temple endowment with Elohim and Jehovah-Michael

Elohim= God's God
Jehovah=Michael=Adam=Father = God = Creator of the world
Jesus=son of Jehovah-Michael
Holy Ghost
Awmen drops out of usage?

Talmage (1912), modern view to get rid of Adam God - Jesus becomes the god of the old testament and this earth, final temple endowment with Elohim and Jehovah-Jesus

Elohim=Father= God
Jehovah=Jesus=Son= Creator of the world
Holy Ghost
Michael=Adam
Awmen drops out of usage?

[Hagoth]

And to further complicate matters, Joseph used both Jehovah and Elohim to refer to the same person. He also made it very clear that he did not associate Jehovah with Jesus. In a prayer in 1842 he said, "O thou... eternal, omnipotent, omniscient , and omnipresent Jehovah - God - Thou Elohim, that sittest, as saith the Psalmist, "enthroned in heaven," look down upon Thy servant Joseph at this time; and let faith on the name of Thy son Jesus Christ... be conferred upon him." (History of the Church, 5:127)

Of course, Yahweh and Elohim are the two names of God used by the J and E sources of the Old Testament and were never intended to refer to separate individuals. The association of Jesus with Jehovah didn't start creeping into Mormon theology until 1885. (Harrell, This is My Doctrine: 175)

[el-asherah]

And to further complicate matters, Joseph used both Jehovah and Elohim to refer to the same person. He also made it very clear that he did not associate Jehovah with Jesus. In a prayer in 1842 he said, "O thou... eternal, omnipotent, omniscient , and omnipresent Jehovah - God - Thou Elohim, that sittest, as saith the Psalmist, "enthroned in heaven," look down upon Thy servant Joseph at this time; and let faith on the name of Thy son Jesus Christ... be conferred upon him." (History of the Church, 5:127)

Of course, Yahweh and Elohim are the two names of God used by the J and E sources of the Old Testament and were never intended to refer to separate individuals. The association of Jesus with Jehovah didn't start creeping into Mormon theology until 1885. (Harrell, This is My Doctrine: 175)

Thanks that was a quote I wasn't familiar with, of course this quote contradicts todays view. Updated my list

Later Joseph Smith, final version of the first vision, later D&C

God=Elohim=Jehovah=Awmen=Father= Creator of the world
Jesus=Son
Holy Ghost
Michael=Adam

Agreed about the J and E sources being one about God in the Old Testament. However, from what I understand (pre-Israel, before Genesis had ever been written ) Yahweh was a Moabite God (Moses's God) and Elohim was the Canaanite pantheon of Gods, they were very different Gods. The history of ancient Israel is the struggle of replacing the Elohim of the Canaanites by morphing or making Elohim become the same God as Yahweh, so they eventually become one God. Getting rid of one God in favor of another God involved redefining what the name of the bad God meant. My understanding is that the J sources and E sources had similar stories (creation, flood, etc) from the Moabites (J source) about their God Yahweh and the Canaanites (E source) about their Elohim Gods, when the sources where blended together they eventually became the same God as viewed by the Jews.

[blazerb]

Brigham Young , Adam God, first written temple endowment with Elohim and Jehovah-Michael

Elohim= God's God
Jehovah=Michael=Adam=Father = God = Creator of the world
Jesus=son of Jehovah-Michael
Holy Ghost
Awmen drops out of usage?

I am not terribly knowledgeable on the topic, so please correct me. I thought the Adam-God doctrine asserted that Jehovah is the god of Michael and Elohim is the god of Jehovah. I remember seeing a good article on the doctrine. I think it was in Dialogue. I'll see if I can find it. I don't remember this very well.

[el-asherah]

I am not terribly knowledgeable on the topic, so please correct me. I thought the Adam-God doctrine asserted that Jehovah is the god of Michael and Elohim is the god of Jehovah. I remember seeing a good article on the doctrine. I think it was in Dialogue. I'll see if I can find it. I don't remember this very well.

Oh please find the Adam-God article if you can! If you remember it correctly who is the Creater of the earth? and who is Jesus the son of?

[blazerb]

The article is found in Dialogue, volume 15, number 1, Spring 1982. It is by David Buerger. You can download a copy from https://www.dialoguejournal.com/archive/.

Here is the quote I was looking for:

Speaking to the School of the Prophets, he [Brigham Young] explained that "Elohim, Yahova & Michael, were father, Son, and grandson.They made this Earth & Michael became Adam."

He also quotes Brigham Young saying that Adam/Michael is the father of Jesus.

[alas]

And to further complicate matters, Joseph used both Jehovah and Elohim to refer to the same person. He also made it very clear that he did not associate Jehovah with Jesus. In a prayer in 1842 he said, "O thou... eternal, omnipotent, omniscient , and omnipresent Jehovah - God - Thou Elohim, that sittest, as saith the Psalmist, "enthroned in heaven," look down upon Thy servant Joseph at this time; and let faith on the name of Thy son Jesus Christ... be conferred upon him." (History of the Church, 5:127)

Of course, Yahweh and Elohim are the two names of God used by the J and E sources of the Old Testament and were never intended to refer to separate individuals. The association of Jesus with Jehovah didn't start creeping into Mormon theology until 1885. (Harrell, This is My Doctrine: 175)

Thanks that was a quote I wasn't familiar with, of course this quote contradicts todays view. Updated my list

Later Joseph Smith, final version of the first vision, later D&C

God=Elohim=Jehovah=Awmen=Father= Creator of the world
Jesus=Son
Holy Ghost
Michael=Adam

Agreed about the J and E sources being one about God in the Old Testament. However, from what I understand (pre-Israel, before Genesis had ever been written ) Yahweh was a Moabite God (Moses's God) and Elohim was the Canaanite pantheon of Gods, they were very different Gods. The history of ancient Israel is the struggle of replacing the Elohim of the Canaanites by morphing or making Elohim become the same God as Yahweh, so they eventually become one God. Getting rid of one God in favor of another God involved redefining what the name of the bad God meant. My understanding is that the J sources and E sources had similar stories (creation, flood, etc) from the Moabites (J source) about their God Yahweh and the Canaanites (E source) about their Elohim Gods, when the sources where blended together they eventually became the same God as viewed by the Jews.

The J source and the E source have different creation stories, one in Genesis chapter 1 and the other in chapter 2. If you read them, you can see two different creation myths. The second myth is actually Babalonian in origin but was adapted to fit. And the J source also had a pantheon of gods. As late as Solomon, Jahweh was married to Asherah. There are inscriptions found by archeologists stating as much. So, I think rather than Jahweh being the Moabite God, and the only God, it was the Jahweh/Asherah pantheon that is named as Eloheim in chapter 2 of Genesis. But the Babalonion myth was just adapted after the exile to Babalon, and then stuck in the Bible amid the older myths.

But all that isn't to say the Moses didn't adopt a Moabite version of God, but he would have replaced that God for the God of Abraham, who we don't have a specific name for, other than "God" or in the Isrealites language "El". So, if "God" appeared to Moses and said "my name is Jahweh" who is to say if that was the same God as appeared to Abraham?

And so much of what really went on is lost as religion was mixed with other religions and evolved, and changed from pantheon to one God. But apparently there was no big exodus, so was there even a Moses, or was that a story invented long after the Isrealites were in Israel? I saw one Biblical documentary that theorized that the "exodus" was a small party of slaves who told a story that became myth and got bigger and bigger as it was retold. And then was adopted as the "story of us" as part of the identity of Israel.

I have been fascinated with the fragments that we have in the Bible such as the similarities in the stories of Herculies and Samson, whose name literally means son of the sun god.

[el-asherah]

The article is found in Dialogue, volume 15, number 1, Spring 1982. It is by David Buerger. You can download a copy from https://www.dialoguejournal.com/archive/.

Here is the quote I was looking for:

Speaking to the School of the Prophets, he [Brigham Young] explained that "Elohim, Yahova & Michael, were father, Son, and grandson.They made this Earth & Michael became Adam."

He also quotes Brigham Young saying that Adam/Michael is the father of Jesus.

Thanks so much for digging this up. Off to read the article about Adam God. This stuff is fascinating to me. Updating my list

Brigham Young , Adam God, first written temple endowment with Elohim and Jehovah, Michael

Elohim= God of Jehovah
Jehovah = God of Michael
Michael=Adam=Father of Jesus = God of this world
Jesus=son of Michael
Holy Ghost
Awmen drops out of usage?

[RubinHighlander]

I've also wondered about all that pure Adamic language BS because when I went through the temple in the 80's it was Pay Lay Ale - Oh God, hear the words of my mouth. Just seems like more mumbo jumbo Smith fiction that was designed to make him look like he had super god knowledge that nobody else had. It's the same crap that L. Ron H. pulls on the Scientologist; just make up another language of non-sense words and claim it came from alien ghosts.

[Hagoth]

But apparently there was no big exodus, so was there even a Moses, or was that a story invented long after the Isrealites were in Israel? I saw one Biblical documentary that theorized that the "exodus" was a small party of slaves who told a story that became myth and got bigger and bigger as it was retold. And then was adopted as the "story of us" as part of the identity of Israel.

That's how I understand it. The entire region from Greece to the borders of Egypt appears to have collapsed around 1300-1200 BC with a cascading series of invasions by a confederation of renegade groups called the Sea Peoples who started in the Agean and moved down the Levantine coast, picking up recruits and sacking population centers all the way to Egypt. They were a big problem for Ramses II, Merneptah and Ramses III. During that time there appear to have been be a number of small, oppressed groups that decided to pack up and get the hell outta Dodge. The Israelites story is probably inspired by one of those. They would have found the Canaan/Palestine region in political chaos with opportunities for a new group to take root in a way that might not have been possible before the collapse.

[Hagoth]

I've also wondered about all that pure Adamic language BS because when I went through the temple in the 80's it was Pay Lay Ale - Oh God, hear the words of my mouth. Just seems like more mumbo jumbo Smith fiction that was designed to make him look like he had super god knowledge that nobody else had. It's the same crap that L. Ron H. pulls on the Scientologist; just make up another language of non-sense words and claim it came from alien ghosts.

Yeah. The short Adamic dictionary we got from Joseph is pretty suspect:

God: Awmen
Man: Son Awmen
Angels: Angls-men

Really? In the pure Adamic Language the word for "son" is the same as the English word? The word "angls" has the same meaning as the English word "angels"? Joseph may have gotten this idea from anglo-centric authors that believed that every good thing comes from England. I'm not sure about this, but I believe it was George Oliver who claimed that English is a direct derivative of the Adamic tongue and that Egyptian Heiroglyphics were the Egyptians' attempt to put it in writing. So there is the link that unites the Adamic language with reformed Egyptian and with Joseph's GAEL, which is a dictionary of the Egyptian language that includes some of the same words that Joseph identified as purely Adamic.

[el-asherah]

The J source and the E source have different creation stories, one in Genesis chapter 1 and the other in chapter 2. If you read them, you can see two different creation myths. The second myth is actually Babalonian in origin but was adapted to fit. And the J source also had a pantheon of gods. As late as Solomon, Jahweh was married to Asherah. There are inscriptions found by archeologists stating as much. So, I think rather than Jahweh being the Moabite God, and the only God, it was the Jahweh/Asherah pantheon that is named as Eloheim in chapter 2 of Genesis. But the Babalonion myth was just adapted after the exile to Babalon, and then stuck in the Bible amid the older myths.

But all that isn't to say the Moses didn't adopt a Moabite version of God, but he would have replaced that God for the God of Abraham, who we don't have a specific name for, other than "God" or in the Isrealites language "El". So, if "God" appeared to Moses and said "my name is Jahweh" who is to say if that was the same God as appeared to Abraham?

And so much of what really went on is lost as religion was mixed with other religions and evolved, and changed from pantheon to one God. But apparently there was no big exodus, so was there even a Moses, or was that a story invented long after the Isrealites were in Israel? I saw one Biblical documentary that theorized that the "exodus" was a small party of slaves who told a story that became myth and got bigger and bigger as it was retold. And then was adopted as the "story of us" as part of the identity of Israel.

I have been fascinated with the fragments that we have in the Bible such as the similarities in the stories of Herculies and Samson, whose name literally means son of the sun god.

Thanks for the clarification, the evolution of the Jewish religion is such a muddled mess.

I previously used the term Moabite Yahweh, should have been Midianite (brain freeze)

Despite the muddy mess it is clear that the term Elohim is Canaanite and predates Israel and the term Yahweh (Midianite) also predates Israel and Moses. The fact that as late as Solomon (1000BC) , Yahweh had a consort Asherah (who is part of the Canaanite pantheon) indicates the messy transition to replace the Canaanite pantheon with the one God Yahweh, i.e. the transition at the time of Solomon is not yet completed, a work in progress, so there are elements of both. There are countless verses in the Old Testament where the priests are doing their best to stamp out the gods of the Canaanite Elohim pantheon such as Baal, and Asherah.

Looks like you are right about the 2nd E source coming out of the Babylon conquest, which indicates by 600 BC the transition to a Jewish concept of Elohim from the Canaanite Elohim is largely completed as seen in the E source. With the J source being the older source?

I'm not so sure about Jahweh/Asherah being implied by the term Elohim, by 600BC wasn't Asherah largely stamped out, and Elohim had just came to mean a generic term for the one God to the Jews when they came out of Babylon and Genesis 2 was written?

The whole issue of was there really a Moses is also fascinating, and a whole topic for another post.

[ulmite]

Interesting to track the etymology of our Modern English's Jesus, but beyond the linguistics why should I care? Does God need a first name? Jesus has got Messiah, Christ, Emmanuel as titles, as well as ones we recognize more as titles because they got translated as opposed to transliterated.
Using the "native's" term for God for your own God is a time-honored tradition ever since Ammon told King Lamoni and his dad about the Great Spirit.

[el-asherah]

Interesting to track the etymology of our Modern English's Jesus, but beyond the linguistics why should I care? Does God need a first name? Jesus has got Messiah, Christ, Emmanuel as titles, as well as ones we recognize more as titles because they got translated as opposed to transliterated.
Using the "native's" term for God for your own God is a time-honored tradition ever since Ammon told King Lamoni and his dad about the Great Spirit.

For you, you probably shouldn't care. I posted the post becomes it matter to me.

For me it is not a matter of the natives using their own term for Christ, which I'm fine with. It is a matter of the church claiming Christ himself (not the natives) is speaking in the FIRST PERSON in the D&C revelations to an internal audience and getting his own name wrong.

The only way to reconcile this is Christ is really not speaking in the FIRST PERSON but the revelation was interpreted and filtered through the cultural lens of the natives (Joseph Smith) and hence is a THIRD PERSON account. But since the Church claims it is a FIRST PERSON account, that is a fraudulent representation of the revelations.

[moksha]

Here is some scholarly-type information on those names from "so-called" Gentiles and Jews:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

[alas]

The J source and the E source have different creation stories, one in Genesis chapter 1 and the other in chapter 2. If you read them, you can see two different creation myths. The second myth is actually Babalonian in origin but was adapted to fit. And the J source also had a pantheon of gods. As late as Solomon, Jahweh was married to Asherah. There are inscriptions found by archeologists stating as much. So, I think rather than Jahweh being the Moabite God, and the only God, it was the Jahweh/Asherah pantheon that is named as Eloheim in chapter 2 of Genesis. But the Babalonion myth was just adapted after the exile to Babalon, and then stuck in the Bible amid the older myths.

But all that isn't to say the Moses didn't adopt a Moabite version of God, but he would have replaced that God for the God of Abraham, who we don't have a specific name for, other than "God" or in the Isrealites language "El". So, if "God" appeared to Moses and said "my name is Jahweh" who is to say if that was the same God as appeared to Abraham?

And so much of what really went on is lost as religion was mixed with other religions and evolved, and changed from pantheon to one God. But apparently there was no big exodus, so was there even a Moses, or was that a story invented long after the Isrealites were in Israel? I saw one Biblical documentary that theorized that the "exodus" was a small party of slaves who told a story that became myth and got bigger and bigger as it was retold. And then was adopted as the "story of us" as part of the identity of Israel.

I have been fascinated with the fragments that we have in the Bible such as the similarities in the stories of Herculies and Samson, whose name literally means son of the sun god.

Thanks for the clarification, the evolution of the Jewish religion is such a muddled mess.

I previously used the term Moabite Yahweh, should have been Midianite (brain freeze)

Despite the muddy mess it is clear that the term Elohim is Canaanite and predates Israel and the term Yahweh (Midianite) also predates Israel and Moses. The fact that as late as Solomon (1000BC) , Yahweh had a consort Asherah (who is part of the Canaanite pantheon) indicates the messy transition to replace the Canaanite pantheon with the one God Yahweh, i.e. the transition at the time of Solomon is not yet completed, a work in progress, so there are elements of both. There are countless verses in the Old Testament where the priests are doing their best to stamp out the gods of the Canaanite Elohim pantheon such as Baal, and Asherah.

Looks like you are right about the 2nd E source coming out of the Babylon conquest, which indicates by 600 BC the transition to a Jewish concept of Elohim from the Canaanite Elohim is largely completed as seen in the E source. With the J source being the older source?

I'm not so sure about Jahweh/Asherah being implied by the term Elohim, by 600BC wasn't Asherah largely stamped out, and Elohim had just came to mean a generic term for the one God to the Jews when they came out of Babylon and Genesis 2 was written?

The whole issue of was there really a Moses is also fascinating, and a whole topic for another post.

I agree that by the end of the exile, the Israelites were monotheists. And I am also not sure that the Jahweh/Asherah pantheon was what was meant by Elohim. But what I am saying is that Jahweh and Ashera were husband and wife, so whatever pantheon Elohim was the name for would have been Jahweh if it was Ashera. I suspect the original story may have originally meant the Babalonian pantheon, and they substituted in their own gods as they adapted the story and translated it into their language. So, they adopted the story before they had transitioned to monotheism and by the time they placed it into their scriptures, they were monotheists and didn't stop to think that the word was plural or assumed it meant the one God and his angels.

My study actually has a gap here, explaining exactly which Gods were named what, in which culture. The cultures mixed and apopted stories from each other, and they probably all have the same root anyway. But the creator God, and the goddess of wisdom and the goddess of fertility are the three Gods that show up in the Eden story. You have to know the symbols of each to recognize them. The goddess of Wisdom is Athena/Sophia/Isis/Wisdom and her symbol is the snake. Asherah's symbol is a grove, not just the fig leaf, so I am unsure if Ashera is meant or if it was a fertility goddess by another name whose symbol was the fig leaf. And the Creator/Father God is the one who doesn't want them to eat of the fruit of knowledge, but of course Wisdom does, so we have a squabble between the two gods.

And it has been twenty years since I read about this stuff, so it is quite possible that more recent research has changed some of it.

But the ancient gods are the same, they are just known by different names in the different cultures. So, perhaps the Bible is right and the God of Abraham appeared to Moses and just gave his name in the language of Moses, rather than the language of Abraham. After all, the Moslems worship the God of Abraham and call him Allah.

Or maybe it is all made up, so none of it matters.

And I like your proof the Joseph didn't really speak to Christ or he would have corrected his prophet on his name in his own language.

[Mad Jax]

This might provide some brain fodder if anybody is interested. Lot's of overlap with the culture of Ugarit and "proto-Israel."

http://religion.oxfordre.com/view/10.10 ... 40378-e-90