Attorney Friend Leaves Church--Shelf Nuked

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consiglieri
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Attorney Friend Leaves Church--Shelf Nuked

Post by consiglieri » Wed May 31, 2017 7:37 am

My attorney-Mormon friend just left the LDS Church.

We have spoken occasionally over the past year about issues related to Mormonism. He is very well informed and has definitely put in the effort to learn about his faith.

Almost nothing I said to him was news, but he would laugh at it while laughing at the church to which he has belonged since he was a kid.

Only recently he told me that he knew he was laughing at this stuff (I think it was the “Wrong Roads” podcast we were discussing) but he knew there a time was coming when he would actually have to deal with this stuff rather than just laughing at it. When we spoke, he estimated that would be several years down the road.

Looks like several years came faster than he thought.

Many things have bothered him over the years. He has loaded his shelf pretty high. It appears that one of the things he didn’t like was polygamy and 14-year old girls. For some reason, it bothered him that not only did Joseph Smith marry 14-year olds, but that this practice extended up through Lorenzo Snow.

He was in a church class a few weeks back and the subject of Lorenzo Snow going down to St. George to preach tithing came up; and that Lorenzo Snow went down there with his wife or something, like it was a strong nuclear family; and the only thing my friend could think was wondering whether he went down there with his the girl he married when she was 14.

I didn’t know about this until this morning, though, when I called him back after receiving a text from him Saturday.

“We need to talk sometime. I’m on date night tonight, but I read the Robert Ritner response to the church essay on the Book of Abraham and my shelf was nuked.”

I texted him back immediately, “I am here for you. Let me know when is a good time. Everything will be ok. Different. But ok.”

He texted back, “That warms my heart. Thanks.”

So this morning (Tuesday) I called him and we talked for about a half hour. He read the Ritner article Thursday and found that the Book of Abraham is a complete “fraud,” as he put it. He learned about the Kirtland Egyptian Papers and how the Book of Abraham is quite apparently an attempted translation from the papyri fragments that the church possesses. He found out that John Gee and the essay are all wet when they try to argue that the Book of Abraham could be from a different part of the scroll that wasn’t recovered.

He then got upset that the church doesn’t say this, but instead tries to talk all around the issue so the member doesn’t know. It wasn’t until he read the Ritner piece that he was aware of this issue. Of course, the essay doesn’t really talk about the KEP much!

My friend is/was the elders’ quorum president, and he didn’t go to church Sunday and sent his bishop an email explaining that he is resigning his position and won’t be coming to church anymore. He sent a one-sentence email to his stake president, as well, who is a new stake president whom he doesn’t know very well, as the SP was just called, though he lives in his ward.

This is likely to raise a host of issues, as my friend’s parents and in-laws (and wife and four kids) are all members. He thinks his siblings will be okay with it. His kids hate church already. His wife is being pretty good about it so far.

I spent most of the time listening.

One of his main problems is that the church will not allow somebody like him “space” to hold the views he holds (about homosexuality, etc.) and still be accepted as a full member of the church.

He likened it to a box that he was shut in and he was allowed no further growth. He felt some time ago that he had “plateaued” and that there was no further spiritual growth for him in the LDS church.

At the end of our conversation, I told him I wanted him to know two things: 1. He is doing the right thing for himself. He will find there is a big, beautiful world out there and that he will be able to grow exponentially all of a sudden. 2. I am there for him, and will be happy to listen more to anything he has to say and, if he is interested, I can share some of my stories that have led me to where I am in my life.

He hasn’t jettisoned Jesus, but wants to take his testimony of Jesus to maybe another church and see what happens. He doesn’t know where this will lead, but feels very much at peace with what he has done. He has never felt so right about doing anything in his life.

This is exactly what is happening all over this church. The very best and the very brightest Mormons are leaving. This is just one more snapshot to add to the scrapbook.

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Fifi de la Vergne
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Re: Attorney Friend Leaves Church--Shelf Nuked

Post by Fifi de la Vergne » Wed May 31, 2017 8:32 am

It's so interesting to hear people's stories; thanks for posting this, Consiglieri.

I'm not familiar with the response to the Book of Abraham essay you referenced. Could you provide a link?
Joy is the emotional expression of the courageous Yes to one's own true being.

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Corsair
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Re: Attorney Friend Leaves Church--Shelf Nuked

Post by Corsair » Wed May 31, 2017 10:10 am

This is a fascinating story. It seems like it was a slow burn until something reached an unexpectedly powerful flash point. Does your friend have any idea what he will do with his life now? Will his wife and children follow him or even tolerate his exit? It's not like we haven't seen this kind of drama play out hundreds of times. My ongoing concern is for how people develop a new moral foundation in their life simply for their own mental health.

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Silver Girl
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Re: Attorney Friend Leaves Church--Shelf Nuked

Post by Silver Girl » Wed May 31, 2017 10:53 am

Thanks for sharing this - it sounds like his journey was taken thoughtfully and prayerfully. Truth cannot be ignored. I'm glad you are there for him, because (as we all know) it's a painful thing when the shelf explodes from under us. He will benefit greatly from having you to turn to through this.
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Red Ryder
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Re: Attorney Friend Leaves Church--Shelf Nuked

Post by Red Ryder » Wed May 31, 2017 11:04 am

Plateau describes it perfectly.

Three inches high and a mile wide. Ironically the inverse also describes the doctrine. Three inches deep and a mile wide.

If the best and brightest (and educated/compensated) members are leaving, where does this leave the church in 10 years?

Consig, maybe you could do a podcast on the dilution of Mormonism and entertain the idea that the church will eventually have to change to a universalist approach to remain relevant and survive in a secular world. The days of exclusivity and fundamentalism are gone.

Welcome to the new century and Information Age!!
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“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

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Emower
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Re: Attorney Friend Leaves Church--Shelf Nuked

Post by Emower » Wed May 31, 2017 1:19 pm

I know now that people leave the church for smart reasons. When I was a kid the story was spun such that people only left due to sin and laziness. That view is untenable now, and it makes me happy that people have a hard time laying that claim these days.

consiglieri
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Re: Attorney Friend Leaves Church--Shelf Nuked

Post by consiglieri » Wed May 31, 2017 1:48 pm

If you listen to Bill Reel's most recent podcast, he talks about being at church a couple of weeks ago and the teacher asking the class why it is so many young people are leaving.

The answer comes back, "Because they are listening to alternate voices trying to deceive them about Mormonism."

That's when Bill went postal.

Gatorbait
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Re: Attorney Friend Leaves Church--Shelf Nuked

Post by Gatorbait » Wed May 31, 2017 2:37 pm

Now comes the difficult part for your friend. We know it all too well.

1. Family talks about you in hushed tones. They are sad you lost your way.

2. You find out about baby blessing, baptisms and the like after the fact. No point having you there if you can't participate.

3. Your neighbors are unable to recognize you at ball games, the store, or on walks. They look past you as if not seeing you.

4. The bishop makes a last ditch effort to bring you back. He may visit, or call, or text.

5. Your kids and wife (I'm assuming he's male) wonder where they go from here. You wonder yourself. Do you keep wearing underwear that someone says he need to wear? How about your wife?

Hope your friend has a lot of patience and is ready to shed tears of grief. Not easy being an TBM then giving Momonism the old heave ho. I wish him well.
"Let no man count himself righteous who permits a wrong he could avert". N.N. Riddell

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2bizE
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Re: Attorney Friend Leaves Church--Shelf Nuked

Post by 2bizE » Wed May 31, 2017 2:47 pm

Sounds like he can decide and move fast...unlike me.
~2bizE

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: Attorney Friend Leaves Church--Shelf Nuked

Post by MalcolmVillager » Wed May 31, 2017 8:39 pm

Same story, a little twist.

All too common. Will they ever do anything? I think not!

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Just This Guy
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Re: Attorney Friend Leaves Church--Shelf Nuked

Post by Just This Guy » Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:11 am

consiglieri wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 7:37 am
He likened it to a box that he was shut in and he was allowed no further growth. He felt some time ago that he had “plateaued” and that there was no further spiritual growth for him in the LDS church.

Interesting way of putting it. I never thought about it in those terms but that is very accurate. For me, I think I plateaued on my mission. The lack of spiritual education was part of what lead me to my inactivity years later. There simply wasn't anything new or interesting to learn in the church.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Raylan Givens
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Re: Attorney Friend Leaves Church--Shelf Nuked

Post by Raylan Givens » Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:54 am

The full fellowship and stagnation is making it difficult to stay in.

My BP likes to meet every few weeks, I have no interest of late. He is nice, but his constantly telling me he doesn't want me to "lose my faith" is growing old, as my DW says, that boat left long ago. As long as I stay in, I will not be a whole member.

Doing some exploring will do him some good.
"Ah, you know, I think you use the Bible to do whatever the hell you like" - Raylan Givens

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Nonny
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Re: Attorney Friend Leaves Church--Shelf Nuked

Post by Nonny » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:50 pm

I am familiar with this box of which your friend speaks. I'm sorry for the heartache he is about to go through. He is lucky to have an intelligent, well- read and good listener friend like you consiglieri. We should all have such a friend. Or maybe be such a friend.

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Hagoth
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Re: Attorney Friend Leaves Church--Shelf Nuked

Post by Hagoth » Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:30 am

consiglieri wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 1:48 pm
If you listen to Bill Reel's most recent podcast, he talks about being at church a couple of weeks ago and the teacher asking the class why it is so many young people are leaving.

The answer comes back, "Because they are listening to alternate voices trying to deceive them about Mormonism."

That's when Bill went postal.
Consiglieri, which episode was that? I don't catch many of them and I would love to listen to this one.

Thanks so much for sharing this story with us. I consider the BoA to be as close to a smoking gun as you could ask for. If you really take all of the problems into account all at the same time and try to unify the various apologetics there is absolutely no satisfactorily spin it. How people like John Gee can maintain belief in it is beyond me. All I can say is that they must have drawn a line in the sand and refused to step over it at any cost.

All the best to your friend and his family!
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

consiglieri
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Re: Attorney Friend Leaves Church--Shelf Nuked

Post by consiglieri » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:20 am

It is up as a premium episode right now on the main web page.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/

Not to put in too much of a plug, but this episode alone is worth the price of a year's subscription of $25.00.

And no, I am making no money off any of it!

:cry:

On the other hand, to put in a most definite plug, here is a link to RFM's newest blog that just went public yesterday.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/ ... rder-foul/

:mrgreen:

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MoPag
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Re: Attorney Friend Leaves Church--Shelf Nuked

Post by MoPag » Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:44 pm

consiglieri wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 7:37 am

At the end of our conversation, I told him I wanted him to know two things: 1. He is doing the right thing for himself. He will find there is a big, beautiful world out there and that he will be able to grow exponentially all of a sudden. 2. I am there for him, and will be happy to listen more to anything he has to say and, if he is interested, I can share some of my stories that have led me to where I am in my life.
You are such a good friend. Do you think your friend would like to join our ward family?
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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