Young Woman's Testimony Censored

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Jeffret
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Re: Young Woman's Testimony Censored

Post by Jeffret » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:40 pm

Korihor wrote:
Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:47 pm
That's what scares me, kids go through an array of trends/preferences/desires at this age. It's hard to know what will stick.
Perhaps Savannah is bi. Maybe she's a 3 on the Kinsey scale. Or even just a 4 or a 5, mostly homosexual but somewhat heterosexual. It's possible.

But, given that Savannah can clearly identify herself, I think it's extremely likely she's right.

There really isn't any evidence that sexual orientation ever changes. Or that someone figures out they are gay and then later decides they were straight all along. In spite of the best attempts of many, many people. Exodus International was the largest ex-gay organization, attempting to help gays overcome themselves. In 2013 they closed down because they couldn't find any successes. Their president, Alan Chambers, commented that in years of working with the organization and others he was not aware of anyone who had changed their orientation.

I don't think we have to worry for Savannah that this is a passing phase or that she doesn't know who she is.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Not Buying It
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Re: Young Woman's Testimony Censored

Post by Not Buying It » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:45 pm

FAIR has set the record straight on this incident. I think I will go throw up:

https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2017/06 ... -year-olds
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Jeffret
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Re: Young Woman's Testimony Censored

Post by Jeffret » Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:54 am

It's hard to tell just what Scott Gordon at FAIR is trying to say about the situation other than the Church must be protected, Savannah is bad, and it is all because of mean anti-Mormons.

It's also pretty hard to tell who he thinks his audience is. His first section is "Understanding LDS Church Meetings". Clearly, FAIR's audience is composed almost entirely of believing members, with the rest composed of former believers like us who end up there as part of the broad conversation. It's not like there is going to be anyone reading who doesn't understand LDS Church meetings. I think his intention with that section is to set down how he thinks meetings are supposed to go and rally believers around the idea that Savannah was misbehaving and deserved what she got. That's probably the best explanation for what is kind of an odd section, though he could be thinking he's reaching a broad audience who doesn't know anything. (Such as perhaps what he thinks of former Mormons.)

One of his footnotes states, "Recording our worship service in the chapel is against church policy. But, being guests, they likely didn’t know that, or didn’t care." Here he tries to suggest that Savannah's guests were not church members who didn't know anything about what was happening. This was almost certainly not the case. I don't know that any details have been shared about her guests, but by far the most likely explanation is that they were members, well familiar with expected behavior. However, my guess is that far more church meetings get recorded than Scott Gordon wants to admit. He wants it to be a significant part of why Savannah is wrong but I suspect it is pretty common place. I'm an old fuddy-duddy who doesn't even own a smart phone, but from I see in the news, recording video surreptitiously seems to be a pretty common practice. I'm guessing that's particularly true among the youth, who were likely heavily represented in those friends Savannah invited as guests.
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And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Hagoth
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Re: Young Woman's Testimony Censored

Post by Hagoth » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:28 am

Jeffret wrote:
Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:40 pm
I don't think we have to worry for Savannah that this is a passing phase or that she doesn't know who she is.
Hey, welcome back Jeffret!

Around age 12 is when kids begin to really care about identity, image and how people perceive them. Lots of kids at that age begin to hide things about themselves - but because they want to fit in with their peers and be accepted. Savannah did just the opposite of what would be expected. And at that age you don't harpoon your social life simply to earn points with mom and dad.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: Young Woman's Testimony Censored

Post by moksha » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:06 am

Jeffret, welcome to NOM 2.0.

Further reading from CNN - http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/19/us/coming ... index.html

Savannah interviewed on Mormon Stories with John Dehlin - https://www.facebook.com/mormonstories/ ... 650264301/

From the UK - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... s-gay.html

Seems this story is widespread, but one place you will not read about it is in the Deseret News.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Jeffret
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Re: Young Woman's Testimony Censored

Post by Jeffret » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:19 am

Thanks for the welcome!


In case my earlier missives on the idea that Savannah is merely choosing to identify as lesbian as a passing lark or fancy was insufficiently long, let me take off on Hagoth's comment with another idea. There is a common accusation among straight people that gays are merely choosing to be gay. That seems to be the foundation behind the idea that Savannah is too young, that she is choosing to be gay for some unknown reason. But consider what it would mean to choose to be gay. I know that in Ellen's famous "puppy episode" they joked about how she got prizes for joining the lesbian club. The reality was quite different. Ellen's career took a nose dive and she was unable to find work for years. Her guest star for that episode, Laura Dern, who is quite straight in real-life but played a lesbian on Ellen's show, found it hard to get work for several years. Sure, Ellen eventually found her way back and has a huge following now, but that was never a likelihood, let alone a certainty.

To choose to be gay means to be outcast, discriminated against, face a plethora of unjust laws, run a higher risk of unemployment, notably lower average lifetime income, and a paucity of role models. And that's after Obergefell made gay marriage legal throughout the land. Before then, the complications were much worse. For a kid to come out as gay frequently means being kicked out onto the streets and disowned by family, particularly in Utah.

For a Mormon youth to come out as gay means to be ostracized from the community. Often it means to be ostracized from their family. In Savannah's case that doesn't appear to be true of her immediate family but may be the case of her extended family. Cousins may be forbidden from associating with her. She faces the potential for bullying at school, from students and teachers, at church, from peers and leaders, and in her community and neighborhood. She faces the approbation of being cast as one of the greatest sinners and enemies of the church, just for who she is, not the actions she has done. In the Church today, her statement is a worse sin than the scarlet letter of Hester Prynne. She faces unending bishop's interviews should she decide to remain and severe limitations on her participation. If she decides to remain in the Church, she faces a lifetime of not only being denied marriage but any fulfilling relationship and affection.

Frankly, it's not worth the mythical toaster.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Jeffret
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Re: Young Woman's Testimony Censored

Post by Jeffret » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:27 am

moksha wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:54 pm
Given the past postings of the person recording this video, it seemed like a set up to provoke a robotic response from any presiding TBM, and the forthcoming robotic response illustrated the gulf between the ideal as taught by Jesus and the reality of our Church.
Unless some information has come out that I haven't heard, we actually know precious little about who recorded the video. We know who it wasn't but little about who it was. We know it wasn't Savannah or her parents. We know it wasn't Mike Norton.

We know that it was recorded by one of Savannah's friends and later provided to her family. I believe the most likely situation is that the person who recorded it was a lesbian (or possibly gay) youth. It could have been some other friend or relative but if that were the case I think we would have heard more about the recorder. Given that Savannah planned on bearing her testimony and asking her ward for love and support, I think it highly likely that she asked some of her rainbow friends to attend and support her. Many of the youth today are constantly using their cell phones and making recordings. It's speculation, but I think it fits the profile the best.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Jeffret
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Re: Young Woman's Testimony Censored

Post by Jeffret » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:29 am

moksha wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:06 am
Jeffret, welcome to NOM 2.0.
I think this has to be at least 3.0 or 4.0. The old Aimoo board would have to be the 1.0 version.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Brent
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Re: Young Woman's Testimony Censored

Post by Brent » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:39 am

1. Post to Facebook
2. Be prepared for a potential sh*t storm
3. Remember folks with strong opinions will state them
4. Ignore them
5. Focus on those who don't react. The ones who are still struggling to decide how to react.
6. Go about your life as an example.

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Jeffret
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Re: Young Woman's Testimony Censored

Post by Jeffret » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:44 am

Actually I got barely one response (and positive at that) when I posted about Savannah on Facebook.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Brent
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Re: Young Woman's Testimony Censored

Post by Brent » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:34 am

That's because...well...how do you smack talk it? She's a sweet kid.




Welcome to the problem the church faces. Imagine if every gay member got up during F&T, came out, and said, "God made me this way." It's a rift that the church would have to deal with. (ala priesthood ban)

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Red Ryder
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Re: Young Woman's Testimony Censored

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:44 am

Welcome back Jeffret!

I appreciate your efforts at teaching and the thoughtful responses layered with kindness. Over the years I've pondered many of your posts and want to say you have a special knack for delivering thoughtful responses that have helped me overcome stereotypical mormon thinking errors.
Jeffret wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:19 am
To choose to be gay means to be outcast, discriminated against, face a plethora of unjust laws, run a higher risk of unemployment, notably lower average lifetime income, and a paucity of role models. And that's after Obergefell made gay marriage legal throughout the land. Before then, the complications were much worse. For a kid to come out as gay frequently means being kicked out onto the streets and disowned by family, particularly in Utah.
...
Frankly, it's not worth the mythical toaster.
I agree. Why would anyone choose these repercussions? One of the ways I've turned my thinking around in regards to young kids coming out was to ask myself "when did I choose to be straight?" I don't recall making a conscious choice and can't imagine any gay person would do the same.
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Re: Young Woman's Testimony Censored

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:49 am

Jeffret wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:29 am
moksha wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:06 am
Jeffret, welcome to NOM 2.0.
I think this has to be at least 3.0 or 4.0. The old Aimoo board would have to be the 1.0 version.
You're right! I think of it as NOM 2.0 in regards to the name but the DAMU 5.0 umbrella.

Did Aimoo morph into FLAK, then View From the Foyer, then New Order Mormon? Where's the board genealogist when we need them? Oh the memories...
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

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Re: Young Woman's Testimony Censored

Post by Just This Guy » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:49 am

Brent wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:39 am
1. Post to Facebook
2. Be prepared for a potential sh*t storm
3. Remember folks with strong opinions will state them
4. Block them so you never have to deal with them again.
5. Focus on those who don't react. The ones who are still struggling to decide how to react.
6. Go about your life as an example.
Fixed it for ya! :lol:
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Jeffret
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Re: Young Woman's Testimony Censored

Post by Jeffret » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:17 pm

When LDSman first launched the NOM forum it ran on the Aimoo message board platform. At that time he promoted the NOM philosophy and the forum on a number of existing forums including RfM. After a while there was a bit of a skirmish on the board between those who wanted to freely criticize the Church and those who wanted to pursue LDSman's Middle Way approach. At that point the FLAK (Further Light and Knowledge) forum was created. It was kind of the jack-Mormon brother to NOM as it was the place for unfettered criticism of the Church. Defending the Church really wasn't allowed there. When stuff was too critical of the Church for NOM's style people would suggest they take that conversation to FLAK. There was a lot of cross-over of the membership between the two forums, though there were some that would only ever participate in one or the other. At some point Cherry was created as yet another forum for some of the FLAK folks to say whatever they wanted in a very free-wheeling style.

At some point, Aimoo just became too annoying and difficult to use so solistics (I think I have the name right) migrated NOM and FLAK onto servers that he set up and hosted. After he passed, I'm not sure how many people ownership passed through until it reached Thayne. In the last days of the forum under Thayne he lost interest and wasn't doing enough to maintain it. He tried shutting some pieces off, but I suspect he wasn't fully aware of the ways that solistics set it up and ended up worsening it in several ways. Notably, he turned off a piece that enabled it to send emails, which hastened the already obvious end.

FLAK was strong for a number of years, but then interest and participation waned and it died after. Eventually it just disappeared. FLAK itself was like a reincarnation of an earlier forum, The View From the Foyer, after that was shut down. I forget how all the sequence goes. I think I might know who could tell part of that story.

Unless I'm missing any incarnations, I think we could say:
1.0: Aimoo
2.0: phpBB under solistics's configuration
3.0: this new phpBB implementation

Of course we could also break it down further by who owned it or provided primary management at various times but I never knew or tracked it to that level.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Jeffret
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Re: Young Woman's Testimony Censored

Post by Jeffret » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:19 pm

I've never actually blocked anyone on Facebook. There are a few people I've told it to show less from, mostly because they shared a huge number of things I'm not that interested in. I suspect that a number of people block me, presumably because I'm too scary. I know some have unfriended me, primarily as far as I can tell because I encourage being nice to LGBT folks or supporting women's rights.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Jeffret
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Re: Young Woman's Testimony Censored

Post by Jeffret » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:23 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:44 am
I agree. Why would anyone choose these repercussions? One of the ways I've turned my thinking around in regards to young kids coming out was to ask myself "when did I choose to be straight?" I don't recall making a conscious choice and can't imagine any gay person would do the same.
Yeah, I've considered that one myself many times or suggested to others that they try answering it. I never made the choice to be straight, but I clearly always was. I figure gays have got to be pretty much the same, only different. At least that's what they say if you bother to listen to them.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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moksha
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Re: Young Woman's Testimony Censored

Post by moksha » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:35 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:27 am
Unless some information has come out that I haven't heard, we actually know precious little about who recorded the video. We know who it wasn't but little about who it was. We know it wasn't Savannah or her parents. We know it wasn't Mike Norton.
Good point. Back when this video surfaced, it seemed like it might have been recorded by NewNameNoah. That assumption was not correct. A certain 'Great and Specious' apologetic board latched onto that as part of the expected ad hominem to discredit the testimony. I am glad it was unfounded. Seems that young Savannah was not anticipating a robotic response from any gentlemen presiding over the F&T meeting at all. Sounds like she wanted to share an idea she came up with back in January. That makes her rebuff all the sadder.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Red Ryder
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Re: Young Woman's Testimony Censored

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:33 pm

Jeffret,

If there's anyway you know how to contact Thayne, let him know we would love to get a copy of the old board data and incorporate here. There's so much history and wonderful posts, stories, and information that hopefully isn't lost forever.

Sorry for the thread jack.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Jeffret
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Re: Young Woman's Testimony Censored

Post by Jeffret » Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:51 pm

I never really knew Thayne much on a personal basis. The only way I had to contact him was via the old board and that didn't work well in the last year it was up.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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