Young Woman's Testimony Censored

[Linked]

Around age 12 is when kids begin to really care about identity, image and how people perceive them. Lots of kids at that age begin to hide things about themselves - but because they want to fit in with their peers and be accepted. Savannah did just the opposite of what would be expected. And at that age you don't harpoon your social life simply to earn points with mom and dad.

With the internet and the current highly charged debate on gender and sexuality the idea of peers and acceptance are different than they were even 20 years ago. The internet allows you to have peers outside of your immediate area, and the current public debate on gender and sexuality tends to divide people into two unattractive camps; sinners or bigots. If those Savannah considers her peers are actually people who accept homosexuality then what she did was exactly what would be expected, and it would enhance her social life. And in some ways it has; she is a celebrity in the exmo world now.

We here on NOM know that as well as anyone I would think.

That is not to say what she did was not brave. Just that there are social incentives to what she did.

[Linked]

In case my earlier missives on the idea that Savannah is merely choosing to identify as lesbian as a passing lark or fancy was insufficiently long, let me take off on Hagoth's comment with another idea. There is a common accusation among straight people that gays are merely choosing to be gay. That seems to be the foundation behind the idea that Savannah is too young, that she is choosing to be gay for some unknown reason. But consider what it would mean to choose to be gay. I know that in Ellen's famous "puppy episode" they joked about how she got prizes for joining the lesbian club. The reality was quite different. Ellen's career took a nose dive and she was unable to find work for years. Her guest star for that episode, Laura Dern, who is quite straight in real-life but played a lesbian on Ellen's show, found it hard to get work for several years. Sure, Ellen eventually found her way back and has a huge following now, but that was never a likelihood, let alone a certainty.

To choose to be gay means to be outcast, discriminated against, face a plethora of unjust laws, run a higher risk of unemployment, notably lower average lifetime income, and a paucity of role models. And that's after Obergefell made gay marriage legal throughout the land. Before then, the complications were much worse. For a kid to come out as gay frequently means being kicked out onto the streets and disowned by family, particularly in Utah.

For a Mormon youth to come out as gay means to be ostracized from the community. Often it means to be ostracized from their family. In Savannah's case that doesn't appear to be true of her immediate family but may be the case of her extended family. Cousins may be forbidden from associating with her. She faces the potential for bullying at school, from students and teachers, at church, from peers and leaders, and in her community and neighborhood. She faces the approbation of being cast as one of the greatest sinners and enemies of the church, just for who she is, not the actions she has done. In the Church today, her statement is a worse sin than the scarlet letter of Hester Prynne. She faces unending bishop's interviews should she decide to remain and severe limitations on her participation. If she decides to remain in the Church, she faces a lifetime of not only being denied marriage but any fulfilling relationship and affection.

Frankly, it's not worth the mythical toaster.

I believe Savannah when she says she is a lesbian and that she is attracted to girls and that it is permanent. But I don't know if Savannah lives in the harsh world you describe. It sounds like she has great, supportive parents and a group of friends who accept her for who she is regardless of what the church says. She has community outside of the church, so it has little power over her life. Gay marriage has been legal for a good chunk of her life, and using gay as a pejorative is no longer socially acceptable in many places. Any shunning she gets from the church or church members will be met with other people who recognize how BS that is and will support her.

At least, I hope that's the case.

[Jeffret]

I believe Savannah when she says she is a lesbian and that she is attracted to girls and that it is permanent. But I don't know if Savannah lives in the harsh world you describe. It sounds like she has great, supportive parents and a group of friends who accept her for who she is regardless of what the church says. She has community outside of the church, so it has little power over her life. Gay marriage has been legal for a good chunk of her life, and using gay as a pejorative is no longer socially acceptable in many places. Any shunning she gets from the church or church members will be met with other people who recognize how BS that is and will support her.

At least, I hope that's the case.

It does get better. And generally society has improved. But unfortunately, Savannah does pretty much live in the harsh world I describe. Now, she's lucky in that her immediate family have been very supportive. Did she know that when came out to her parents last year? Possibly but it's hard to say. I've read enough coming out accounts to know that lots of times people think their parents will be terribly upset if they come out only to find out they are totally accepting. Or the opposite is true too many times -- parents who are expected to be totally accepting turn out to be totally upset or in denial. I haven't watched / listened to any of Savannah's follow on podcasts to know how much trepidation she might have had about coming out privately.

Savannah seems to have a good support system. I saw a suggestion, IIRC from someone who would know, that she had participated in Rainbow Mutual. If so she surely has a good bunch for friends from that. But they're spread out across many schools and communities and won't provide her local support. Surely she'll stick out as different in her school and community. Certainly in her neighborhood and in her church community she will face attacks, ostracism, and shame.

The number of physical assaults on lesbians and gays has actually increased in the last few years, since marriage equality started winning and even since Obergefell. As they started living their lives more openly, they've unfortunately run into more people willing to physically attack them. Or damage / destroy their property.

In some ways the "It Gets Better" campaign has backfired. It's true that it does get better, but saying so has encouraged more kids to come out earlier and far too many of them have faced difficult circumstances. The number of kids kicked out of their homes for being gay has ballooned.

Savannah looks like she has good support from some friends and at least her immediate. This should serve her well. But, being lesbian still raises lots more difficulties than being straight. Nobody would choose that. Not even for the toaster.

[Linked]

It does get better. And generally society has improved. But unfortunately, Savannah does pretty much live in the harsh world I describe. Now, she's lucky in that her immediate family have been very supportive. Did she know that when came out to her parents last year? Possibly but it's hard to say. I've read enough coming out accounts to know that lots of times people think their parents will be terribly upset if they come out only to find out they are totally accepting. Or the opposite is true too many times -- parents who are expected to be totally accepting turn out to be totally upset or in denial. I haven't watched / listened to any of Savannah's follow on podcasts to know how much trepidation she might have had about coming out privately.

Savannah seems to have a good support system. I saw a suggestion, IIRC from someone who would know, that she had participated in Rainbow Mutual. If so she surely has a good bunch for friends from that. But they're spread out across many schools and communities and won't provide her local support. Surely she'll stick out as different in her school and community. Certainly in her neighborhood and in her church community she will face attacks, ostracism, and shame.

The number of physical assaults on lesbians and gays has actually increased in the last few years, since marriage equality started winning and even since Obergefell. As they started living their lives more openly, they've unfortunately run into more people willing to physically attack them. Or damage / destroy their property.

In some ways the "It Gets Better" campaign has backfired. It's true that it does get better, but saying so has encouraged more kids to come out earlier and far too many of them have faced difficult circumstances. The number of kids kicked out of their homes for being gay has ballooned.

Savannah looks like she has good support from some friends and at least her immediate. This should serve her well. But, being lesbian still raises lots more difficulties than being straight. Nobody would choose that. Not even for the toaster.

Thanks for the good information. I don't disagree that people don't choose their sexuality, that it is part of who they are. My point was more to highlight that the world of many gay kids growing up is not perceived as bleak. And that by not feeling that being gay ruins your life, there are less negatives to being gay. And in Savannah's case perhaps the positives of sharing who she is publicly at church outweigh the negatives. This may not be the case generally for LGBT folks, but it may be the case specifically for some, which would be awesome.

Savannah's journey is similar to many of those here on NOM who fear being authentic, but dream of doing it. Many here have thought it would be great to stand up in testimony meeting and put our new worldview out there like Savannah did (her talk was really good, not church bashing but also pushing the envelope and making people think). If I had my worldview change as an 11 year old and told my parents and they were supportive and I had some friends who were also fully supportive I would be living in a different and better world too.

[Jeffret]

Thanks for the good information. I don't disagree that people don't choose their sexuality, that it is part of who they are. My point was more to highlight that the world of many gay kids growing up is not perceived as bleak. And that by not feeling that being gay ruins your life, there are less negatives to being gay. And in Savannah's case perhaps the positives of sharing who she is publicly at church outweigh the negatives. This may not be the case generally for LGBT folks, but it may be the case specifically for some, which would be awesome.

I realized my comments may be coming off the wrong way, implying that being gay makes for a terrible life. That's certainly not the case, but it does add a lot of difficulties that straights don't face. (Or to turn it around, straights have a lot of privilege.)

I thought I'd come back on to clarify that point but you've pretty much covered it for me already.

[Not Buying It]

I am so sick to death of seeing members post things on Facebook trying to rationalize how this young girl was treated. The FAIR article and the Happiness Seekers article (http://happiness-seekers.com/2017/06/20 ... y-believe/) really set me off - the latter not only misrepresents how gays and lesbians in the Church are treated, both articles try to make it sound like no one was rude or demeaning to her when they turned her freakin' microphone off and told her to sit down. Don't try and make it sound like gays and lesbians in the Church are treated with love and respect when a video of a 12 year old girl being shut down in Testimony Meeting by her religious leaders is making the rounds. Everyone can see for themselves how they are really treated. I find it really upsetting.

Someone needs to create a meme that says "We in the LDS Church love our gay and lesbian members - but if they talk about it in Testimony Meeting we'll turn off their microphone and tell them to sit down".

[Jeffret]

The Happiness Seekers' blog post is pretty bad. Like the FAIR article it doesn't really know where it is going or what it is about. It's primary point is to reassure themselves and other members that they are good people and above criticism. I'm sure it largely satisfies that goal, but I don't think it does much for anyone else.

It talks quite a bit about love. They state, "But anyone who is aware of our doctrine, knows that we have nothing but love for members who experience same-sex attraction." And, "The video also doesn’t show that the Bishop reached out to the family after the meeting and made sure they knew that they were loved and welcome in our Church." But, this is just the love of the abuser for those they are trying to control. They love them as long as they shut up, don't disturb their carefully crafted social mores, and don't expect them to reconsider any of their beliefs. The bishop may have reached out to tell them they were loved and welcomed but actions speak much louder than words. He demonstrated quite clearly that they are welcomed only if they conform and become something different and they love them enough to silence them.

The article states, "The LDS Church remains one of the few major churches that publicly opposes the view that same-gender attraction is a sin or a choice" but this is not true. The Catholic Church has a fairly similar position: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexua ... lic_Church. Many denominations are actually LGBT-affirming, in contrast to the Church's vibrant fight against marriage equality and brash policy of discrimination: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C ... rming_LGBT

In the end, the article fails to deliver what it's title claims. They do not show how the video misrepresents what Mormons believe. The video shows quite clearly what Savannah believes, up until she is cut off. At that point it shows quite clearly what Mormon authorities believe. No other authority has corrected the record so we can be quite certain it is an accurate reflection of what the Church believes.

[Corsair]

In the end, the article fails to deliver what it's title claims. They do not show how the video misrepresents what Mormons believe. The video shows quite clearly what Savannah believes, up until she is cut off. At that point it shows quite clearly what Mormon authorities believe. No other authority has corrected the record so we can be quite certain it is an accurate reflection of what the Church believes.

I can accept that the LDS church holds their own nuanced doctrine that is different than other churches in some particular way. But I have never seen any conservative church addresses the scant, practical options that any LGBT person faces in a conservative religion. The options are:

1. Live a single, celibate life
2. Marry someone of the appropriate heteronormative gender
3. Leave the church and be an apostate

I have not seen any orthodox church spell out these options in stark detail. I encourage anyone to prove me wrong if you find somewhere these are effectively spelled out. All three options are filled with different versions of profound existential pain and disappointment.

At least the Catholics have monastic orders that probably work for some LGBT people. Mormons have only disappointment for the LGBT believer and their family. Also notably absent is any definitive doctrine or process to reliably and consistently change orientation if that were somehow available.

The message from the LDS church avoids these topics in favor of general messages about the love of God and the importance of families. Meanwhile, LGBT people have to navigate these issues largely on their own. It's just like navigating other doctrinal issues except it's they are stepping through a mine field. And the minefield is covered with cactus. And their clothes are on fire. And they are in hell.

[Jeffret]

At least the Catholics have monastic orders that probably work for some LGBT people.

Apparently they can work quite well for some LGBT people in some ways.

[Give It Time]

This is true. Crazy stuff does come out and I'm sure what she had to say surprised very few. On another note, we had a thread that had crazy testimonies on NOM 1.0. That would be fun. I just haven't heard anything crazy, lately.

That was my thread.

I remember a poster sharing the story of a woman who bore her testimony through interpretive dance. That would be awesome!

[LostMormon]

5) I can't tell if the mom is pushing her or supporting her.

Is it really our concern?

None of this is really any of our concern, but does that keep us from talking about it? I am with Korihor on this one, as her talk just seems a bit too "grown up" for a 12 year old to be giving, and the recording itself seems a bit suspicious to me. I just hope the Mother is truly supporting her daughter, and not pushing her daughter into something she isn't just to get a little internet fame.

[Jeffret]

5) I can't tell if the mom is pushing her or supporting her.

Is it really our concern?

None of this is really any of our concern, but does that keep us from talking about it? I am with Korihor on this one, as her talk just seems a bit too "grown up" for a 12 year old to be giving, and the recording itself seems a bit suspicious to me. I just hope the Mother is truly supporting her daughter, and not pushing her daughter into something she isn't just to get a little internet fame.

Why?

Can you explain why you believe so?

How does that impact our response?

[Red Ryder]

Regardless of any preparation beforehand or delivery and video motives, the church's reaction was unsurprisingly authentic.

[Jeffret]

Regardless of any preparation beforehand or delivery and video motives, the church's reaction was unsurprisingly authentic.

I believe this is one of the key points.

[moksha]

The FAIR article and the Happiness Seekers article (http://happiness-seekers.com/2017/06/20 ... y-believe/) really set me off - the latter not only misrepresents how gays and lesbians in the Church are treated, both articles try to make it sound like no one was rude or demeaning to her when they turned her freakin' microphone off and told her to sit down.

I think this applying of lipstick to the video is strictly for the benefit TBMs, trying to convince them that is not as bad as it looks. Of course, all viewers outside of the TBM-blinded see it for what it is.

[Not Buying It]

Regardless of any preparation beforehand or delivery and video motives, the church's reaction was unsurprisingly authentic.

I believe this is one of the key points.

I think it is THE key point. In my opinion, whether it was staged or how hard the mom is pushing the daughter is irrelevant - what you saw in the video is 100% authentic LDS Church response. If it was a trap, the Church walked right into it by doing what they always do. A sting operation only works when your target can be relied on to do something wrong.

I think this applying of lipstick to the video is strictly for the benefit TBMs, trying to convince them that is not as bad as it looks. Of course, all viewers outside of the TBM-blinded see it for what it is.

I agree completely.

[Jeffret]

I finally got around to listening to Savannah's interview on I Love to Look for Rainbows. (I don't listen to podcasts much.) I think we can pretty confidently answer one of the pressing questions here.

The podcast is here: http://iliketolookforrainbows.com/2017/ ... ahs-story/. A transcript is here: http://iliketolookforrainbows.com/2017/ ... ranscript/.

On the question of whether this was something Savannah's mother pushed her into, or to turn it around, whether this was Savannah's idea and something that she wanted to do, I think the best evidence is to take Savannah's word for it:

Savannah: Yeah. So, I wanted to share my testimony from the beginning of this year, and I kept asking and asking, and getting a “no”, because it would be—

Jerilyn: Who were you asking?

Savannah: Oh, my mom and dad, and they finally said yes, and we started writing my testimony, and we went through a couple of rough drafts, and by the time we finally made the perfect one

Wisely, her mom is sitting by her during the interview (not that Jerilyn represents any danger) but throughout the interview Savannah speaks from her own perspective. There is no indication whatsoever that her mom is pushing her on anything or putting words into her mouth. Savannah talks solely of what she wanted and her goals. She talks of getting permission from her parents to share her testimony like this but nothing of them pushing her into it or telling her what to say. She's generally pretty clear spoken and eloquent in her interview, being knowledgable about issues LGBTQ kids face. Savannah conveys that she gets lots of support from her mom, saying, "She’s one of the best. ... Not to be rude to anyone else who has a different mother."

One way Savannah relates that her mom is kind of controlling is that Mom won't let Savannah know what any of the haters say, at least as much as Mom is able to shield her from outside. I consider that a very wise approach for the mom of a 12 year old.

For the most part, her mom is kind of out of the picture, behind the scenes, in all of this. She does show on camera in Dehlin's interview, but she's in the background for Jerilyn's. Other photos, articles, etc., are solely focused on Savannah or merely show her mom as background. The CNN article quotes her mom about how this was Savannah's idea and she didn't feel she could stop her and then the rest is all about Savannah. If this were really about Mom trying to get some internet fame we would expect to see her trying to worm her way into the picture.

[Jeffret]

A couple of other tidbits I gleaned from Savannah's interview:

I had assumed it was Savannah's bishop who cut off her microphone, but he was out of town that day. Her stake president was there and, of course, was the one presiding that day. Savannah kind of hoped her bishop would have been there. I don't know the outcome would necessarily have been different, but she knows the bishop. The CNN article talks about an emailed statement from her bishop and quotes from it. The SP made the decision but the bishop gets to deal with it. It certainly wasn't a rogue bishop operating on his own choice, where an SP could step in and offer calming or conciliatory comments. Such comments would have to come from the Area President or above.

In the CNN article the bishop's email is quoted, "As a congregation, we continue to reach out, and do all that we can to make sure she knows that we love her and her family." Yet, in Savannah's interview,

Jerilyn: Has your bishop reached out to you at all since then?

Savannah: No, I haven’t seen him. For a really long time, actually.

Admittedly there is a difference in time. Savannah's interview with Jerilyn was posted May 29, while the CNN article was published June 20, but Savannah's testimony occurred quite a while earlier than the interview. During that time period, the bishop made no contact.

Also in the CNN article, the bishop said a "group of visitors jubilantly left the service. ... Everyone is welcome and understands the standards of decorum and behavior if they decide to participate. It is unfortunate that this group of adults chose to violate them." Remember, though, that he wasn't there. In contrast,

But Savannah's parents don't see it that way. They say they didn't witness anyone being disruptive. They also say there was no "group" present.
"Savannah invited a few close friends as allies," Heather tells CNN, responding to the statement from the local bishop. "There was no group."
The family did leave shortly after. Heather says Savannah was distraught and crying.

Also in the interview, Savannah said,

So what happened is, at school, a couple of people came up to me, and said that they supported me, which I was surprised about how many they were. And the stake president’s daughter came up to me and said she didn’t agree with his decision, and supported me.

This echoes the point that Brent made in the other thread that youth, even in the Church are, are accepting of LGBTQ people, even if the institution and its leaders are not.

[ulmite]

I'm going to chime in to give my two cents and organize my ideas about this.

1) She's really young. Granted, when I was 12 a scantily clad female could attract my attention. But she seems really young to make such a bold declaration. I will admit my naivete - but if anyone here is willing to share, at what age (generally) does someone know they are gay/straight/bi, etc?

There is a big difference here between barely 12 and going on 13. I also think having a crush on a girl in your class (seems like normal junior-high girl behavior) would be enough to make you realize. Freud broke taboo by investigating sexuality in children, and he found convincing evidence that there was something going on at least sometimes.

2) in many of the pictures, Savannah looks like a regular kid. But the interview with John Dehlin, she is dressed rather adult like. I just get the impression she was just a regular kid. Once she gave her testimony - it's like her wardrobe jumped 5 years ahead.

I think her mom made her dress nice before going and facing the Internets.

5) I can't tell if the mom is pushing her or supporting her.

I think Jeffret here has made a convincing case that her mother is supportive, not pushy.

As to whether or not it was staged to make the Church look bad, I think not at all. Filming a big moment like that in your life seems pretty normal, and Savannah probably just wanted to post it on facebook to share with her friends and distant family. The fact that "the guy who sneaks into temples" got a hold of it and gave it more exposure does not make that the original intent by a long shot.

In my experience, F&T meeting is not really sacred. You're not doing any ordinances, it is open mic for members and non-members alike, and most importantly, nobody shares anything super personal in front of the entire ward. All the really good stories are shared in much more closed circles, on a once-in-a-blue-moon HT/VT appointment, a discussion about religion/the gospel with a close friend, a youth camp, or some other small group of trusted individuals, where you are not casting your pearl before swine.

And now on to the fun stuff
I've been in a ward where a lady sung a spiritual for her testimony every month.
A protestant preacher came to my ward once, and got up, told every one to read Romans 10:10, talking about some loosely related things, and sat down. He didn't read the scripture over the pulpit, and you could hear the congregation rummaging around for their Bibles for the next 2 minutes.
A young woman (barely 18) announced to the whole ward that she was getting engaged. This was the first anyone had heard of it, including her parents!
The first counselor in my bishopric bore his testimony that Ordain Women! was inspired.

The fact that most people can't wait for something crazy to happen in F&T meeting is a pretty good indicator that something is very wrong with the way the Church runs its meetings.

[Korihor]

I listened to savannah's episode on Mormon stories. It has changed/ improved my perspective. I should have given more credit to a 12 year old.

I'm still learning