Mind Reading

[oliblish]

Recently I watched an interview with a woman who escaped from North Korea. One thing that stood out to me is when she said she actually believed that Kim Jong-un could read her mind. I thought that sounded crazy.

But then remembered that in the church we believed that our Priesthood leaders had the power of discernment which is the same thing as mind reading. Why is discernment easier to believe than mind reading? Is it because we used a different term that was tied closely to the church? I am trying to remember if I actually used to believe that.

Did any of you believe that your bishop could read your mind? Were you able to lie to him and get away with it. (I know I did). Were there any times you felt one of your leaders used discernment to read your thoughts?

[Rob4Hope]

It is a scientific fact we have mirror neurons that give empathic abilities. I have those. I have an uncanny ability to plug into people, read their feelings and even get a feel for what they may be thinking to bring about those feelings. Some people have more of those neurons than others, just like some people are taller, shorter, better at this or that genetically gifted.

I also don't quite know how the after-life works, or if there is such a thing. But there is a lot of evidence that something may happen after death, that there may be some type of essence that persists. Whether you believe that is individual. I happen to lean toward there being something after, and if there is, perhaps there is a way those who have moved on can reach back and influence somehow.

Those two things I believe have influence. Mirror neurons, and perhaps there actually being something else going on after death, and influencing the current environment.

I don't think people have mind-reading abilities.

And this is all my opinion.

[Give It Time]

It is a scientific fact we have mirror neurons that give empathic abilities. I have those. I have an uncanny ability to plug into people, read their feelings and even get a feel for what they may be thinking to bring about those feelings. Some people have more of those neurons than others, just like some people are taller, shorter, better at this or that genetically gifted.

I also don't quite know how the after-life works, or if there is such a thing. But there is a lot of evidence that something may happen after death, that there may be some type of essence that persists. Whether you believe that is individual. I happen to lean toward there being something after, and if there is, perhaps there is a way those who have moved on can reach back and influence somehow.

Those two things I believe have influence. Mirror neurons, and perhaps there actually being something else going on after death, and influencing the current environment.

I don't think people have mind-reading abilities.

And this is all my opinion.

R4H, your views are strikingly similar to mine.

I had a bishop who believed he could do this. Bear in mind, I was very TBM, at the time. He asked me an interview question. I think it was the first question on the temple recommend interview. Anyway, first question out of the gate, he asked and then he moved in closer, fixing his eyes on my eyes as if to, either discern I was telling the truth or scare me into telling the truth. I'm not sure which.

I tell you what he succeeded in doing. I wasn't sure whether to laugh or be creeped out. I was a little of both. I moved away from him. I'm sure the look on my face gave away the thought that I thought his behavior was bizarre. He backed off into "normal" mode and the rest of the interview proceeded without​ further incident. He never asked any follow up questions of me or anything. We lived in this ward a couple of more years. I think I had one or two more interviews with him. He never tried this, again.

[deacon blues]

Once on my mission, as a greenie, I believed God gave me the power to discern an investigators thoughts. Later I realized I was totally wrong. It was a good reality check for an arrogant 19 year old. The D&C tells us Joseph Smith used mind-reading to convince others (Oliver Cowdery, the Whitmers, Orson Whitney) of his claims. I think he got carried away

[Rob4Hope]

It is a scientific fact we have mirror neurons that give empathic abilities. I have those. I have an uncanny ability to plug into people, read their feelings and even get a feel for what they may be thinking to bring about those feelings. Some people have more of those neurons than others, just like some people are taller, shorter, better at this or that genetically gifted.

I also don't quite know how the after-life works, or if there is such a thing. But there is a lot of evidence that something may happen after death, that there may be some type of essence that persists. Whether you believe that is individual. I happen to lean toward there being something after, and if there is, perhaps there is a way those who have moved on can reach back and influence somehow.

Those two things I believe have influence. Mirror neurons, and perhaps there actually being something else going on after death, and influencing the current environment.

I don't think people have mind-reading abilities.

And this is all my opinion.

R4H, your views are strikingly similar to mine.

I had a bishop who believed he could do this. Bear in mind, I was very TBM, at the time. He asked me an interview question. I think it was the first question on the temple recommend interview. Anyway, first question out of the gate, he asked and then he moved in closer, fixing his eyes on my eyes as if to, either discern I was telling the truth or scare me into telling the truth. I'm not sure which.

I tell you what he succeeded in doing. I wasn't sure whether to laugh or be creeped out. I was a little of both. I moved away from him. I'm sure the look on my face gave away the thought that I thought his behavior was bizarre. He backed off into "normal" mode and the rest of the interview proceeded without​ further incident. He never asked any follow up questions of me or anything. We lived in this ward a couple of more years. I think I had one or two more interviews with him. He never tried this, again.

LDS peoeple, in general (and I can't say this of others because my experience is not sufficient), are taught to defer to authority. From a young age, I was taught that if I was lying, God new it, and eventually it would come out. I was taught to be honest, upright, but also transparent. Its a major boundary issue--I felt it was normal to go into my bishop (perhaps a complete stranger) and share the most intimate details of my life.

Is it any wonder there is MASSIVE POTENTIAL for abuse in these situations?....as little people are taught to tell the bishop everything, including how they touch themselves, what they think and do, what they have thought and done...and everything in between? That is another thread, but it certainly puts a chill down my spine just mentioning it!

Anyway, because of this lack of boundaries, it seems bishops and SP would also think their job is to discern error, lies, etc. They can take liberties with their authority, and yet not see the harm they do. How dangerous is this as well!

I'm gunna get myself right off track on this thread. I better quit now...

[Give It Time]

Well that question about not discerning the damage they do was valid.

[2bizE]

Recently I watched an interview with a woman who escaped from North Korea. One thing that stood out to me is when she said she actually believed that Kim Jong-un could read her mind. I thought that sounded crazy.

But then remembered that in the church we believed that our Priesthood leaders had the power of discernment which is the same thing as mind reading. Why is discernment easier to believe than mind reading? Is it because we used a different term that was tied closely to the church? I am trying to remember if I actually used to believe that.

Did any of you believe that your bishop could read your mind? Were you able to lie to him and get away with it. (I know I did). Were there any times you felt one of your leaders used discernment to read your thoughts?

I can read your mind Oliblish. You are a man, between the age of 40-47 years. You have been spending a lot of time recently thinking of someone named Elizabeth. You enjoy sci-fi shows and buy your gas at Chevron because of the better fuel additives.

[Not Buying It]

I used to think Bishops and stake presidents could read minds. I thought the spirit was telling them everything while I was talking to them. What they are really doing is trying to convince themselves that whatever pops into their heads is the spirit. Mark Hoffman proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that priesthood leaders have no power of discernment, and Elder Oaks made a statement after that fiasco that affirmed it.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/10/rece ... s?lang=eng

As everyone now knows, Hofmann succeeded in deceiving many: experienced Church historians, sophisticated collectors, businessmen-investors, national experts who administered a lie detector test to Hofmann, and professional document examiners, including the expert credited with breaking the Hitler diary forgery. But why, some still ask, were his deceits not detected by the several Church leaders with whom he met?
In order to perform their personal ministries, Church leaders cannot be suspicious and questioning of each of the hundreds of people they meet each year. Ministers of the gospel function best in an atmosphere of trust and love. In that kind of atmosphere, they fail to detect a few deceivers, but that is the price they pay to increase their effectiveness in counseling, comforting, and blessing the hundreds of honest and sincere people they see. It is better for a Church leader to be occasionally disappointed than to be constantly suspicious.

IMG_6437.JPG (101.12 KiB) Viewed 7645 times

[Hagoth]

I had a bishop who believed he could do this. Bear in mind, I was very TBM, at the time. He asked me an interview question. I think it was the first question on the temple recommend interview. Anyway, first question out of the gate, he asked and then he moved in closer, fixing his eyes on my eyes as if to, either discern I was telling the truth or scare me into telling the truth. I'm not sure which.

Yeah, I had one of these too. He would really pour it on for last question about whether you feel worthy to enter the temple. Even after you answered he would continue to pour on the unblinking laser stare and lean half-way across the desk and say "Are you sure?" in a way that told you he had picked up something on his radar and knew you were holding back. Creepy.

[Hagoth]

My wake-up call about the spirit of discernment came on my mission. (Sorry, I know I've told this story before)

I had a companion who was baptizing children behind their parents' back. I refused to do it so he would arrange splits (always with children or teenagers, sometimes even non-member children) and do his baptizing when I was not around. It turned out he was even baptizing kids younger than 8, Once he even tried to talk me into baptizing some kids in a bathtub against their will. "It might take both of us to hold them down, but it's for their own good." All he cared about was getting the highest baptism numbers in the mission.

Our mission president, Vaughn J. Featherstone, was a General Authority at the time who had just been released from the the Presiding Bishopric and had asked President Kimball to let him serve as a mission president. One day he was coming to do interviews and I knew it would be my opportunity to tell him what was going on and let him know I wanted no part in it. As soon as I mentioned my companion's name Elder Featherstone cut me off and said, "Elder Hagoth, your companion is one of the best missionaries we have. I want you to watch him very closely, learn from him, and do everything he tells you to do." Well that shut me up. That month we won the coveted Texas steer horns trophy for being the top baptizers in the mission. I have never felt so humiliated in my life and I kept beating myself up about not doing more to stop Elder Babybaptizer, but a General Freakin' Authority with his Holy freakin' Spirit of Discernment had told me that he was doing just what God wanted. I'm guessing that there must have been an angel with a flaming sword at the bottom of it all.

[Give It Time]

I had a bishop who believed he could do this. Bear in mind, I was very TBM, at the time. He asked me an interview question. I think it was the first question on the temple recommend interview. Anyway, first question out of the gate, he asked and then he moved in closer, fixing his eyes on my eyes as if to, either discern I was telling the truth or scare me into telling the truth. I'm not sure which.

Yeah, I had one of these too. He would really pour it on for last question about whether you feel worthy to enter the temple. Even after you answered he would continue to pour on the unblinking laser stare and lean half-way across the desk and say "Are you sure?" in a way that told you he had picked up something on his radar and knew you were holding back. Creepy.

Unblinking laser stare... What a perfect description!

[Zack Tacorin Dos]

Why is discernment easier to believe than mind reading? Is it because we used a different term that was tied closely to the church?

Indoctrination? Also, I remember the Church teaching against superstition. I like this definition of superstition from Merriam-Webster:

a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation

I didn't realize many of my religious beliefs fit this definition, and I think it's because I failed to use what I think is the best protection against superstition, critical thinking.

Did any of you believe that your bishop could read your mind? Were you able to lie to him and get away with it. (I know I did). Were there any times you felt one of your leaders used discernment to read your thoughts?

I believed in the mind-reading ability of my ecclesiastic leaders. If I remember correctly, any time I wasn't exactly forthcoming during an interview, I convinced myself it wasn't dishonesty but rather that it was me discerning that they didn't need to know whatever I held back. Yikes, my ability to rationalize scares me a little. Of course, if I really did hold back then, I'm now glad for it because I now think it was none of their business. But, the capacity to rationalize . . . seems necessary, but so risky at the same time.

[Newme]

Why is discernment easier to believe than mind reading? Is it because we used a different term that was tied closely to the church?

Yes, semantics. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
It's kind of funny when you realize this - if you can avoid getting frustrated.
IE: My husband wouldn't say amen when I prayed because it was using different words. I start with, "Dear Heavenly Father and Mother..." & close with "in the spirit of Christlike love, amen."
When I've told TBMs that Jesus seemed to have had psychic powers and could read minds, they looked at me like I was crazy - the terms they're used to are "discern, spirit" etc.

I believed in the mind-reading ability of my ecclesiastic leaders. If I remember correctly, any time I wasn't exactly forthcoming during an interview, I convinced myself it wasn't dishonesty but rather that it was me discerning that they didn't need to know whatever I held back. Yikes, my ability to rationalize scares me a little. Of course, if I really did hold back then, I'm now glad for it because I now think it was none of their business. But, the capacity to rationalize . . . seems necessary, but so risky at the same time.

Maybe even back then, you sensed that it really wasn't their business.
I held back too - not much, but some which at the time I felt was just too personal to share with a man I barely knew.

[Emower]

Recently I watched an interview with a woman who escaped from North Korea. One thing that stood out to me is when she said she actually believed that Kim Jong-un could read her mind. I thought that sounded crazy.

But then remembered that in the church we believed that our Priesthood leaders had the power of discernment which is the same thing as mind reading. Why is discernment easier to believe than mind reading? Is it because we used a different term that was tied closely to the church? I am trying to remember if I actually used to believe that.

Did any of you believe that your bishop could read your mind? Were you able to lie to him and get away with it. (I know I did). Were there any times you felt one of your leaders used discernment to read your thoughts?

I don't disagree with the discussion about the GA's not having the spirit of discernment.

I do disagree with the statement that it is the same principle of mind reading. Mind reading implies that you can do it whenever you want, to whomever you want, about whatever you want. What Mormons believe is that a third party (the Holy Ghost) will tell a leader what they need to know within their sphere of authority. I think it's quite a bit different.

[Thoughtful]

There have been times I am intuitively able to know something. I can typically tell when a man is a heavy user of pornography. I can tell when therapy clients and sometimes others are lying. I can tell when my kids are going to throw up within a few hours, even if I'm not near them.

Some of it is experience and common behaviors. Maybe some is mirror neurons. Some I think is a premonition that science can't yet explain.

I believe clairvoyance is real, but probably related to sensory experience we aren't yet able to study.

I don't believe it is handed to you automatically because of a calling.

[Rob4Hope]

My wake-up call about the spirit of discernment came on my mission. (Sorry, I know I've told this story before)

I had a companion who was baptizing children behind their parents' back. I refused to do it so he would arrange splits (always with children or teenagers, sometimes even non-member children) and do his baptizing when I was not around. It turned out he was even baptizing kids younger than 8, Once he even tried to talk me into baptizing some kids in a bathtub against their will. "It might take both of us to hold them down, but it's for their own good." All he cared about was getting the highest baptism numbers in the mission.

Our mission president, Vaughn J. Featherstone, was a General Authority at the time who had just been released from the the Presiding Bishopric and had asked President Kimball to let him serve as a mission president. One day he was coming to do interviews and I knew it would be my opportunity to tell him what was going on and let him know I wanted no part in it. As soon as I mentioned my companion's name Elder Featherstone cut me off and said, "Elder Hagoth, your companion is one of the best missionaries we have. I want you to watch him very closely, learn from him, and do everything he tells you to do." Well that shut me up. That month we won the coveted Texas steer horns trophy for being the top baptizers in the mission. I have never felt so humiliated in my life and I kept beating myself up about not doing more to stop Elder Babybaptizer, but a General Freakin' Authority with his Holy freakin' Spirit of Discernment had told me that he was doing just what God wanted. I'm guessing that there must have been an angel with a flaming sword at the bottom of it all.

Dude,...I just read this thread, and this one jumps off the page. Holy CRAP!. Talk about a smoking gun!

Featherstone was well liked in my neck of the woods,...he was like Paul Dunn for years, and didn't (at least in my knowledge) go down in flames like Dunn did. So, to hear him miss it THIS BIG is pretty surprising.

The don't have the Spirit (if there is such a thing). These guys feign their mesmerism powers, and don't realize they are carrying on magic traditions that have probably existed since JS first looked in his rock and told everyone he knew if they kept digging they would encounter a bird feather. But brother Joseph...what about the TREASURE?

[nibbler]

Recently I watched an interview with a woman who escaped from North Korea. One thing that stood out to me is when she said she actually believed that Kim Jong-un could read her mind. I thought that sounded crazy.

But then remembered that in the church we believed that our Priesthood leaders had the power of discernment which is the same thing as mind reading. Why is discernment easier to believe than mind reading? Is it because we used a different term that was tied closely to the church? I am trying to remember if I actually used to believe that.

Did any of you believe that your bishop could read your mind? Were you able to lie to him and get away with it. (I know I did). Were there any times you felt one of your leaders used discernment to read your thoughts?

I think a lot of it is based on fear. The woman that escaped from NK? She was probably afraid that her true feelings towards Kim Jong-un would land her in serious trouble... or worse. They were probably well founded fears. The fear that Kim Jong-un could read thoughts probably serves as a hedge of sorts - don't even think anything bad about the guy because he's that dangerous... and people all over are spying on their neighbors to win favor with the guy, they'll rat you out in a heartbeat.

I think the same applies to a religious setting. It's fear. Fear of a vengeful/unapproving god, fear of loss in tribal standing, etc. While not on the same level as North Korea, I think those are still well founded fears for an adherent. Don't lie to these people, god will tell them and you'll get it! Tattle on your fellow man, increase your tribal standing by putting down others. Many times leaders get info through the gossip grapevine and they'll wait to see if you'll admit or deny things that they've already been told.

Kinda sad that the same types of fear (albeit to a lesser degree) that people experience when trying to flee NK are present in the faithful. Ah, obedience through intimidation. I feel loved.

I think it also comes from the stories we have about Jesus. Jesus healed the sick, raised the dead, cast out demons, fed the 5000, turned water into wine, and discerned people's thoughts so he could get an edge over others in a debates. Funny how our local leaders don't tend to do much raising of the dead, casting out demons, feeding the 5000, certainly not turning water into wine, maybe there's a case to be made for healing the sick, but we really believed in that one about discerning people's thoughts... despite the bad track record with all the other gifts. Oh well.

I agree with other comments. I've had members in the stake presidency that liked to give people the, "I know something you're not telling me" death stare. The goal there is to create a self fulfilled prophecy of sorts. Story time... when I was a kid our mailbox was at the end of a long driveway through the woods. When my parents asked me to get the mail after dark the long walk through the woods was very dark and scary. To soothe my fears sometimes I would say stupid things like, "I know you're hiding there, I can see you, come out." even though I didn't see a thing. I was just trying to put the question as to whether or not something was actually there to rest - trying to trick the boogeyman into revealing themselves. Same deal with President DeathState. He didn't have discernment, he had intimidation and people's belief that he had discernment to coax out those confessions.

I bet all the internal wrangling over believing you'll get caught in a lie makes for lots of external tells that people pick up on.

Plus, how hard is it to read people's thoughts in certain, narrowly defined circumstances?

Woman fleeing NK:
"I'm hungry." "I'm afraid I'll be killed."

Church:
"I'm bored." "This is boring." "This sucks." "Not this again."

TR interview:
You see the way that guy blinked when I asked him about the LoC? Probably a porn user.
You see the way that guy went out of his way to not blink when I asked him about the LoC? Probably a porn user.

[blazerb]

I used to think Bishops and stake presidents could read minds. I thought the spirit was telling them everything while I was talking to them. What they are really doing is trying to convince themselves that whatever pops into their heads is the spirit. Mark Hoffman proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that priesthood leaders have no power of discernment, and Elder Oaks made a statement after that fiasco that affirmed it.

So, I once heard a faith-promoting rumor that during a temple session, the officiator was a GA. The GA stood up before the session started and said that someone in the group was unworthy to be there. The session would not begin until that person left and began the repentance process. The officiator sat down and waited. After a few minutes, a young man stood up and left the room. The session then began. I bought this, totally. Like you, I was sure that all church leaders could read minds. Then I went on my mission and found out clueless people could be given leadership callings, as well. That would be my mission president. I still kind of thought some leaders had super powers for way too long.

[Give It Time]

This thread popped up, today, and I had forgotten I'd already responded to it. I have new thoughts on this, today. I don't look at the power of discernment as an ability to read minds. My patriarchal blessing says I have this ability and I can tell you I can't read minds, never could and never thought this was what it meant. It can be paying attention to the whisperings of the spirit, but it can also be more mundane than that.

My view of the spiritual is essentially chi/qi and I do believe it exists. However the flow of energy in a room can be altered by the temperature, someone dusting or simply removing or adding an item. A person who is more plugged into a real world view will be able to definitively say what is different about a setting, what is different about the lights, sounds or the smells. A person who is more plugged into the spiritual will be more likely to just sense something has changed, but won't be able to put their finger on it. It's more complicated than that. A lot of it has to do with where I agreed with R4H, up thread. The atmosphere is vastly different at a funeral than it is at a football game. We have emotional connections to reach other, as well. However, back to the mundane. There are things outside the range of our five senses, colors in light that need the help of a crystal, drop of water or migraine to be seen. Sounds out of human hearing range, etc.

Anyway, a person will give themselves away, to an extent by what they do or say. For instance, if one were to ask the question, "why are people mean?" There are all kinds of responses:

Hurting people hurt people
Low self esteem
Not thinking
Drunk

You get the idea. I've also heard the response to that question:

"Because they (mean people) are so happy".

Now, each one of those responses tells something about the person who said it. Very practical and it's possible to discern (i.e. judge) something about that person. Now, these discernments should always be verified with further discussion and observation of the person, but it is possible to discern something about a person's character without reading their mind, but simply listening to how they answer a question.

Do bishops have training in how to do this--just as it's my understanding police are taught to notice behaviors that indicate lying--probably not.