"Gimme your wife" test of Heber Kimball

[moksha]

This isn't just your typical "a prophet walks into Nauvoo" story. Apparently, this actually happened.

Joseph Smith told Heber Kimball to bring him his wife. Heber goes home and tells his wife Vilate that big benefits will accrue in heaven if Joseph can have her. Three days later the Kimball's arrive at Joseph's home ready to conduct the transaction. Joseph realizing that Emma would catch on to what he was doing tells the Kimball's he was only testing them - sort of like God did with Abraham. Awhile later outside the hearing distance of Emma, Joseph asks for the Kimball's young teenage daughter Helen. The Kimball's trade her in exchange for Celestial visas for themselves and all future Kimballs.

1. Was this a good trade bargain?

2. Was this one of the grossest abuses of ecclesiastical power ever?

3. Anything else you would like to add?

[Palerider]

I've read this account before.

The abuse of Biblical principle is used fairly frequently by Joseph and later church leadership. But if you call them on it they get quite indignant with self-righteousness. Look at you in horror like how could you suggest such a thing or quesion their irreproachable integrity.

Think about the principle of something so sacred it isn't intended for public consumption. Twist that one a little and you have a poor excuse for not showing anyone the golden plates.

Come up with a reasonable, common sense request and your clear thinking will be twisted into a lack of faith.

Poor Heber. It's one thing to give your soul to God. It's quite another to sell it for a phony ticket to heaven.

[Rob4Hope]

This isn't just your typical "a prophet walks into Nauvoo" story. Apparently, this actually happened.

Joseph Smith told Heber Kimball to bring him his wife. Heber goes home and tells his wife Vilate that big benefits will accrue in heaven if Joseph can have her. Three days later the Kimball's arrive at Joseph's home ready to conduct the transaction. Joseph realizing that Emma would catch on to what he was doing tells the Kimball's he was only testing them - sort of like God did with Abraham. Awhile later outside the hearing distance of Emma, Joseph asks for the Kimball's young teenage daughter Helen. The Kimball's trade her in exchange for Celestial visas for themselves and all future Kimballs.

1. Was this a good trade bargain?

2. Was this one of the grossest abuses of ecclesiastical power ever?

3. Anything else you would like to add?

I remember hearing this story told by Truman Madsen during one of his Joseph Smith the Prophet tape series. I always thought that Heber was asked to take another wife. That is how I interpreted what Truman taught. I was SHOCKED when I heard the rest of the story--or the REAL story as the case may be. It had nothing to do with Heber begin asked to take another wife,...it was Heber being asked for HIS WIFE!

This is utterly crazy. This is utterly CRAZY! And this is what God gave as a test...through Joseph?

Joseph Smith was a criminal.

[LaMachina]

1. Was this a good trade bargain?

For who exactly?
For Joseph? Yeah probably. It seems whether your trading horses, NBA prospects, or *cough* women (just saying that makes me a ill but, "presentism", right?? ) there seems to be an economic rule of thumb that younger is better. And taller. You can't teach height.

For Heber and Vilate? Win-win!! Guaranteed celestial reward and your daughter marries Mormon royalty? Who says no to that?

For Helen? Uh...not so great. But there is biblical precedence for trading daughters in for far, far worse. I'm looking at you Lot...only righteous man, my ass.

2. Was this one of the grossest abuses of ecclesiastical power ever?

Yep

3. Anything else you would like to add?

Joseph deserves all the vitriol he gets for these types of scenarios but I gotta be honest, I am blown away by the people who agree to this stuff. These weren't necessarily dumb, ignorant people. Heber apparently agonized for 3 days over this, "fasting and praying", and after that he decides - "ok Joseph, here's my wife." Who does this?? When does the victim become complicit? I don't know but it boggles the mind.

[Rebel]

I can't imagine actually doing this !!!!!!!!!!!! Poor Heber ...... I'm sure Joseph is getting his payback probably a little warm where he is at !!!! just goes to show what a criminal he really was , but then again he said he had done more for mankind than Jesus Christ himself !!!!!

[deacon blues]

I remember hearing the first part of the Heber C. Kimball story in 9th grade Seminary- from good old Bro. Taylor. He said it was an example of an "Abrahamic sacrifice" that we probably would all have to make at some time in our lives, to prove our loyalty and obedience. But- he neglected to tell the rest of the story: about 14 year old Helen. I didn't learn that until 7 years ago, when my shelf was shattered. I've since wondered whether Bro. Taylor left out the last part because he didn't know about it, or because he thought it was a truth that wasn't useful.

[Thoughtful]

Helen's writings are absolutely heartbreaking. This was a crime against her. I hate that the church constantly downplays her age, pretending she was 15. I heard someone say, in the Year of Polygamy podcast even that she was "one of 2 15 year olds." No no no. She was 14. She was a child. I have worked with children this age and could manipulate them in all kinds of ways if I wanted to. So wrong. This was child exploitation.

I also hate that the church says it was a legal thing, but Joseph was already married so it was still illegal. IT's downright sneaky.

[2bizE]

I think we should have a contest to see how many people can get a friend to give his/her spouse to them. Then we can share stories.

[Emower]

When does the victim become complicit? I don't know but it boggles the mind.

This is something I have thought a lot about. At some point, whether you feel strongly about a religion or not, whether or not you think God may be talking to you, there seems to be some boundaries that anyone with an ounce of decency wouldn't cross. Selling your child to a prophet as a wife regardless of the temporal/spiritual nature of the union seems to be one of those boundaries. But in Mormon history there are so many people who just dance right over some of those boundaries with a smile on their face.

I am watching the TV series Lost on Netflix right now. The line between Good Guy and Bad Guy is really muddled in that show. One minute the Good Guy is doing all kinds of Good Guy stuff, the next minute they are doing horrible Bad Guy stuff. Its the same for church leaders past and present. At what point are they bad guys?

[Rob4Hope]

I remember hearing the first part of the Heber C. Kimball story in 9th grade Seminary- from good old Bro. Taylor. He said it was an example of an "Abrahamic sacrifice" that we probably would all have to make at some time in our lives, to prove our loyalty and obedience. But- he neglected to tell the rest of the story: about 14 year old Helen. I didn't learn that until 7 years ago, when my shelf was shattered. I've since wondered whether Bro. Taylor left out the last part because he didn't know about it, or because he thought it was a truth that wasn't useful.

Mate....did you hear in the 9th grade JS asked for Heber's wife? Or did you get some other version about him taking another wife or something?

I am curious about the details,...because I was taught something completely different. Polyandry was NOT part of what I was taught, or even discussed at all....

[Corsair]

I remember hearing the first part of the Heber C. Kimball story in 9th grade Seminary- from good old Bro. Taylor. He said it was an example of an "Abrahamic sacrifice" that we probably would all have to make at some time in our lives, to prove our loyalty and obedience. But- he neglected to tell the rest of the story: about 14 year old Helen. I didn't learn that until 7 years ago, when my shelf was shattered. I've since wondered whether Bro. Taylor left out the last part because he didn't know about it, or because he thought it was a truth that wasn't useful.

Mate....did you hear in the 9th grade JS asked for Heber's wife? Or did you get some other version about him taking another wife or something?

I am curious about the details,...because I was taught something completely different. Polyandry was NOT part of what I was taught, or even discussed at all....

My near fundamentalist seminary teacher did present this incident as a sacred Abrahamic sacrifice. But he did not mention Helen Mar Kimball being involved. Perhaps she was skipped since it would have made the Freshman girls in the room a bit more uncomfortable than the Correlation Committee would appreciate.

[Vlad the Emailer]

Poor Heber?

I don't think so.

Vilate didn't like polygamy (Helen said her mother had already seen the misery it brought, or some words to that effect) and almost any decent father would not only not want to share his wife, but certainly would not give up his "ewe lamb" of a 14 year old daughter to marriage to anyone, let alone an oft married man 2-3 times her age. In other words, these "tests" should have been enough to send the entire Kimball crew packing. But it wasn't like that. Why? I think because Heber was not one of the victims, he was one of the beneficiaries. My sad suspicion is that poor Vilate and Helen were the sacrifice ole Heber was willing to make for his place in the polygamy hot tub.

[Rob4Hope]

Poor Heber?

I don't think so.

Vilate didn't like polygamy (Helen said her mother had already seen the misery it brought, or some words to that effect) and almost any decent father would not only not want to share his wife, but certainly would not give up his "ewe lamb" of a 14 year old daughter to marriage to anyone, let alone an oft married man 2-3 times her age. In other words, these "tests" should have been enough to send the entire Kimball crew packing. But it wasn't like that. Why? I think because Heber was not one of the victims, he was one of the beneficiaries. My sad suspicion is that poor Vilate and Helen were the sacrifice ole Heber was willing to make for his place in the polygamy hot tub.

There is a type of "weakness" manifested through this whole deal I believe. These people had devoted their lives to Mormonism. They had endured some persecutions (so they claim--brought on by the wickedness of others), they had served missions, and so forth. All of the sudden their prophet is saying: "Hey, God has given your wife to me. Turn her over!"...and they are like WTF!?

Did Heber show more ability by going through with it, and then sacrificing Helen?...or was it actually an act of cowardice, being unwilling to face up and say: "Hey may, I made a mistake. JS is a fallen [or false] prophet!"

Which is it? The LDS narrative tries to paint Heber as a TRUE saint--faithful to all of God's word, as delivered by JS. But, in hind site and with what we know now, is this actually the case?....or was Heber a coward?

I say it takes a LOT OF GUTS to say: "Hey man,...NO MORE. You will not act like you speak for GOD and say such things!"

I know it takes guts because I've had to cross this plain myself--and it has cost me DEARLY! It was the end of my marriage, crushed my family, the complete upheaval of my social network, and even costed thousands and tens [perhaps hundreds] of thousands of dollars. It hurt man,...it HURT!

I DON'T CARE. "You will not act like you speak for GOD and say such things!"

And if GOD really commanded JS to take other men's wives and this was a test?...then I joined the wrong side. Satan should have BEEN the ruler (but or course, that is likely another giant fable).

[Hagoth]

Poor Heber?

I don't think so...

My sad suspicion is that poor Vilate and Helen were the sacrifice ole Heber was willing to make for his place in the polygamy hot tub.

Exactly. Heber also had a secret wife before Vilate grudgingly gave him permission to join the Joseph club, and he went on to become one of the most vile practicians or polygamy. Check his quotes. He gave us the endearing comment about wives having similar value to cattle. No sympathy from me for Heber. Tons of sympathy for his poor wife and daughter.

[Rob4Hope]

Poor Heber?

I don't think so...

My sad suspicion is that poor Vilate and Helen were the sacrifice ole Heber was willing to make for his place in the polygamy hot tub.

Exactly. Heber also had a secret wife before Vilate grudgingly gave him permission to join the Joseph club, and he went on to become one of the most vile practicians or polygamy. Check his quotes. He gave us the endearing comment about wives having similar value to cattle. No sympathy from me for Heber. Tons of sympathy for his poor wife and daughter.

Speaking to a group of departing missionaries... "Brethren, I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake." - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Lion of the Lord, New York, 1969, pp.129-30.

Oh...how I love this honest man. Can you imagine being a woman who is NOT married, and being passed over because you were--as Heber said--an ugly one?

GAWD!!!! How far can you degrade someone!...and a whole group of someones?!!!!

[Hermey]

Poor Heber?

I don't think so...

My sad suspicion is that poor Vilate and Helen were the sacrifice ole Heber was willing to make for his place in the polygamy hot tub.

Exactly. Heber also had a secret wife before Vilate grudgingly gave him permission to join the Joseph club, and he went on to become one of the most vile practicians or polygamy. Check his quotes. He gave us the endearing comment about wives having similar value to cattle. No sympathy from me for Heber. Tons of sympathy for his poor wife and daughter.

You both nailed it. Thanks for saving me the time to type that up.

[deacon blues]

I remember hearing the first part of the Heber C. Kimball story in 9th grade Seminary- from good old Bro. Taylor. He said it was an example of an "Abrahamic sacrifice" that we probably would all have to make at some time in our lives, to prove our loyalty and obedience. But- he neglected to tell the rest of the story: about 14 year old Helen. I didn't learn that until 7 years ago, when my shelf was shattered. I've since wondered whether Bro. Taylor left out the last part because he didn't know about it, or because he thought it was a truth that wasn't useful.

Mate....did you hear in the 9th grade JS asked for Heber's wife? Or did you get some other version about him taking another wife or something?

I am curious about the details,...because I was taught something completely different. Polyandry was NOT part of what I was taught, or even discussed at all....

My near fundamentalist seminary teacher did present this incident as a sacred Abrahamic sacrifice. But he did not mention Helen Mar Kimball being involved. Perhaps she was skipped since it would have made the Freshman girls in the room a bit more uncomfortable than the Correlation Committee would appreciate.

My Seminary teacher told us Joseph asked Heber for his wife, Vilate. When Heber returned and placed Vilate's hand in Joseph's, the story continued that Joseph embraced Heber and explained that it was just a test.

[deacon blues]

Mate....did you hear in the 9th grade JS asked for Heber's wife? Or did you get some other version about him taking another wife or something?

I am curious about the details,...because I was taught something completely different. Polyandry was NOT part of what I was taught, or even discussed at all....

My near fundamentalist seminary teacher did present this incident as a sacred Abrahamic sacrifice. But he did not mention Helen Mar Kimball being involved. Perhaps she was skipped since it would have made the Freshman girls in the room a bit more uncomfortable than the Correlation Committee would appreciate.

My Seminary teacher (most likely a different guy than Corsair's teacher) told us Joseph asked Heber for his wife, Vilate. When Heber returned and placed Vilate's hand in Joseph's, the story continued that Joseph embraced Heber and explained that it was just a test.

[Rob4Hope]

Mate....did you hear in the 9th grade JS asked for Heber's wife? Or did you get some other version about him taking another wife or something?

I am curious about the details,...because I was taught something completely different. Polyandry was NOT part of what I was taught, or even discussed at all....

My near fundamentalist seminary teacher did present this incident as a sacred Abrahamic sacrifice. But he did not mention Helen Mar Kimball being involved. Perhaps she was skipped since it would have made the Freshman girls in the room a bit more uncomfortable than the Correlation Committee would appreciate.

My Seminary teacher told us Joseph asked Heber for his wife, Vilate. When Heber returned and placed Vilate's hand in Joseph's, the story continued that Joseph embraced Heber and explained that it was just a test.

The moral of this story to me is: God will break his own commandments, tell you to do horrible evil things,...as a test. If this is true (and I don't believe it is) God is a EFFING CREEP!

What a load of ROT!

Its like how low can you go!?.....its like taking your little brother and forcing him to the point if eating a spider (for example). He is in tears and in horrible fear,...and you say: "You have to do this of God will damn you to hell! YOU HAVE NO CHOICE!"....and your little brother in pure agony and trauma begins to do it. You then smile, laugh a little..."Oh, I was just testing you..." hehehehe,..oh what fun....ahahahahaha....oh how nice god is...

What a load of horse shit ROT!

[moksha]

The Joseph Smith Polyandry Story