Sacrament water

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Korihor
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Sacrament water

Post by Korihor » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:29 pm

When was water officially declared as the proper liquid for the sacrament.
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2bizE
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Re: Sacrament water

Post by 2bizE » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:08 am

Well, according to FAIR, which is always correct, the FP started using water in temple sacrament meetings in 1906. It appears to be primarily driven by the temperance movement movement, which finally led to prohibition. Mormon leaders were big into abandoning alcohol, and it seemed like a good time to do so.

D/C 27 says that it doesn't matter what you use, so water became the thing to use. If only Diet Dr. pepper were around then, it could have become the liquid of choice.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormon_ordinan ... ad_of_wine
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Fifi de la Vergne
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Re: Sacrament water

Post by Fifi de la Vergne » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:52 am

I don't want to derail the thread, but this reminded me of a recent conversation I heard at work.

I work at a Jesuit university (which is a story in itself) and at a recent office gathering somehow the conversation turned to the kinds of wine used for communion. The conversation became quite lively as people talked about experiences they had as youths discovering and imbibing of the communion wine. Then they started comparing what kind of wine different churches use (various denominations were represented) and which ones have the best stuff. It was a peek into an aspect of other churches that was completely new to me, but very funny. The fact that I also found it quite jarring made me realize I still have a ways to go in shedding my mormon parochialism. :)
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Corsair
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Re: Sacrament water

Post by Corsair » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:09 am

Fifi de la Vergne wrote:I don't want to derail the thread, but this reminded me of a recent conversation I heard at work.

I work at a Jesuit university (which is a story in itself) and at a recent office gathering somehow the conversation turned to the kinds of wine used for communion. The conversation became quite lively as people talked about experiences they had as youths discovering and imbibing of the communion wine. Then they started comparing what kind of wine different churches use (various denominations were represented) and which ones have the best stuff. It was a peek into an aspect of other churches that was completely new to me, but very funny. The fact that I also found it quite jarring made me realize I still have a ways to go in shedding my mormon parochialism. :)
I applaud your interesting derailment of the conversation. Was there some type of wine or other drinkable liquid that was considered a bad idea for the sacrament? Did the Jesuits have any rules for what is allowable for the sacrament? I have a lot of respect for Jesuits and their intellectual commitment even if I philosophically disagree with many of their positions. A centuries old faith tradition must have more than a few good ideas that would support their longevity.

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Fifi de la Vergne
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Re: Sacrament water

Post by Fifi de la Vergne » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:39 am

Corsair wrote:
Fifi de la Vergne wrote:I don't want to derail the thread, but this reminded me of a recent conversation I heard at work.

I work at a Jesuit university (which is a story in itself) and at a recent office gathering somehow the conversation turned to the kinds of wine used for communion. The conversation became quite lively as people talked about experiences they had as youths discovering and imbibing of the communion wine. Then they started comparing what kind of wine different churches use (various denominations were represented) and which ones have the best stuff. It was a peek into an aspect of other churches that was completely new to me, but very funny. The fact that I also found it quite jarring made me realize I still have a ways to go in shedding my mormon parochialism. :)
I applaud your interesting derailment of the conversation. Was there some type of wine or other drinkable liquid that was considered a bad idea for the sacrament? Did the Jesuits have any rules for what is allowable for the sacrament? I have a lot of respect for Jesuits and their intellectual commitment even if I philosophically disagree with many of their positions. A centuries old faith tradition must have more than a few good ideas that would support their longevity.
Corsair, you always put me to shame by taking a more thoughtful approach to the topic at hand. :)

It was a social gathering and someone had brought a wine that someone else compared to (I think it was Manischewitz?) a wine that was popular with girls back when he was in high school and someone else said oh yeah, that's what we used at such-and-such parish when I was a kid and we got into the closet where it was kept, and then a Lutheran started sharing his experience with sneaking the communion wine. . . it was that kind of a conversation. This disaffected Mormon just sat there with big eyes -- I mean, I drink wine, but only in very specific circumstances and I still feel a bit guilty/shameful when I do. What was funny was the . . . wholesomeness . . . of a conversation about alcohol. As in, alcohol at church.

And yeah -- Catholics have their own set of problems, but I've had to go through some training about the Jesuit tradition, and there is a LOT to admire.
Joy is the emotional expression of the courageous Yes to one's own true being.

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Dravin
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Re: Sacrament water

Post by Dravin » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:08 am

2bizE wrote:Well, according to FAIR, which is always correct, the FP started using water in temple sacrament meetings in 1906. It appears to be primarily driven by the temperance movement movement, which finally led to prohibition. Mormon leaders were big into abandoning alcohol, and it seemed like a good time to do so.

D/C 27 says that it doesn't matter what you use, so water became the thing to use. If only Diet Dr. pepper were around then, it could have become the liquid of choice.
Considering how the bread is treated, often stale and the cheapest bread available, if Diet Dr. Pepper was the official choice you know you'd be forced to drink warm flat sacrament cups of Diet Dr. Thunder.
Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

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Corsair
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Re: Sacrament water

Post by Corsair » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:15 am

Dravin wrote:Considering how the bread is treated, often stale and the cheapest bread available, if Diet Dr. Pepper was the official choice you know you'd be forced to drink warm flat sacrament cups of Diet Dr. Thunder.
Adding insult to injury I anticipate that it will be the non-caffeinated version.

Korihor
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Re: Sacrament water

Post by Korihor » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:49 am

Corsair wrote:
Dravin wrote:Considering how the bread is treated, often stale and the cheapest bread available, if Diet Dr. Pepper was the official choice you know you'd be forced to drink warm flat sacrament cups of Diet Dr. Thunder.
Adding insult to injury I anticipate that it will be the non-caffeinated version.
Here's an idea for the Strengthening Church Members Committee - Since they typically have 8-12 sacrament trays, let's make 1 the Coke tray, one the Diet Coke tray, the Diet Dr Pepper tray, the water tray, the grape juice tray, the Gatorade tray, the Martinelli's tray, the V8 tray. They could install a soda fountain machine in the back wet bar where they prepare the sacrament This could really improve moral.

Regarding the bread - pumpkin bread tray, chocolate zucchini tray, potato bread tray, sourdough tray, unleavened tray, pita tray, Hawaiin King Roll Tray. Maybe a few little butter packets

Why can't they drop the video screen and put up some nice pics of Jesus during the sacrament, or anything to help distract the kids. Would some soft background music ruin the ritual of passing the white trays?

They're missing a golden opportunity.
Last edited by Korihor on Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dravin
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Re: Sacrament water

Post by Dravin » Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:51 am

Corsair wrote: Adding insult to injury I anticipate that it will be the non-caffeinated version.
Which would be a bit of a shame for them, as it might keep a few more members from nodding off during sacrament meeting if they could get a shot of caffeine.
Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

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Corsair
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Re: Sacrament water

Post by Corsair » Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:42 am

Dravin wrote:Which would be a bit of a shame for them, as it might keep a few more members from nodding off during sacrament meeting if they could get a shot of caffeine.
In other words, if they would bring an espresso machine into the LDS church it would go a long way. Forbidding coffee has such a silly history in the LDS church.
Korihor wrote:Here's an idea for the Strengthening Church Members Committee - Since they typically have 8-12 sacrament trays, let's make 1 the Coke tray, one the Diet Coke tray, the Diet Dr Pepper tray, the water tray, the grape juice tray, the Gatorade tray, the Martinelli's tray, the V8 tray. They could install a soda fountain machine in the back wet bar where they prepare the sacrament This could really improve moral.
As humorous as this is, it points to a narrow parochialism embedded in the desire to have all LDS wards function just like the wards in suburban Provo. The only hymns allowed are from a Northern European lineage which feel a bit out of place at an African ward that are forbidden to use native instruments. The desire of the Q15 to keep the doctrine pure is apparently bolstered by an attempt to keep the culture pure also. They grasp so tightly and are still living under the shadow of Boyd Packer's "The Unwritten Order of Things". I'm not claiming the anything and everything could change. It's that the bland Utah culture is paraded as the one, true way masking the general feeling that boredom is a reasonable, if not desirable, outcome in the LDS church. Allowing friendly experimentation with local variety would lend a lot of strength to the church.

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shadow
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Re: Sacrament water

Post by shadow » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:40 pm

Dravin wrote:
Corsair wrote: Adding insult to injury I anticipate that it will be the non-caffeinated version.
Which would be a bit of a shame for them, as it might keep a few more members from nodding off during sacrament meeting if they could get a shot of caffeine.
Korihor has that sacrament drowsiness problem figured out...
Korihor wrote:Since they typically have 8-12 sacrament trays, let's make 1 the Coke tray
Wait, I didn't misunderstand what kind of coke tray it is, did I?
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MoPag
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Re: Sacrament water

Post by MoPag » Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:29 pm

When I was little, I always dreamed of them changing it to cherry Kool-Aid and the marshmallow pieces from Lucky Charms. Not the cereal pieces, it had to be just the marshmallow pieces.
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believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Jinx
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Re: Sacrament water

Post by Jinx » Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:50 pm

Dang, dropping the video screen and having music is a really good idea. So much better than listening to screaming children.
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