Polygamy Essay

[Thoughtful]

The essay claims polygamy increased birth rates. I've heard that census records prove that 1- reduced number of children per woman except first wife, and 2- lots of unmarried men, meaning there wasn't actually a surplus of women due to mob violence and trail deaths.

Can someone provide a link to substantiate either of these things? Preferably not from an "anti" source.

TIA!

[Corsair]

I beg your forgiveness if I point you at this essay: “Go west young man” and sex ratios. It is absolutely a pro-LDS source at FairMormon. But I have not gone through it critically.

Perhaps one way to anecdotally examine polygamous birth rates would be to count up the number of children born to Brigham Young. Wikipedia states that by the time of his death, Young had 56 children by 16 of his wives; 46 of his children reached adulthood. This leaves out details of what Brigham was, uh, "doing" with the other 40 wives. D&C 132:63 does include this instruction about plural wives:

...they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.

Brigham should have had in excess of 200 children if he was both "multiplying" and "replenishing" with all 56 wives.

I seem to recall U.S. census data from the 1800s showing that more men than women existed in the Utah territory but I can't find that at the moment. Those numbers would be worth tracking down.

[ulmite]

The fairmormon source essentially tries desperately to prove that there WAS a shortage of men, when there was not.
It's main argument is that there were 9 men between the ages of 20 and 34 for every 10 women between 15 and 29. And that polygamy was necessary so that every mormon woman would be married to a mormon man, because if not, all those miners and cowboys wandering around on the frontier would snap them up, and create *gasp* interfaith marriages, a.k.a. a disaster.
To criticize only the numbers, marriage at 15 is stretching it by a lot, and if you don't skew the numbers by that 5-year slot, you actually get more guys than gals.
However, the data does show that polygamy does a good job of getting all the women married, while not affecting the men : while 7% of US women died as old maids, only 1% of mormon women never married. (8% for men no matter where)

[alas]

The fairmormon source essentially tries desperately to prove that there WAS a shortage of men, when there was not.
It's main argument is that there were 9 men between the ages of 20 and 34 for every 10 women between 15 and 29. And that polygamy was necessary so that every mormon woman would be married to a mormon man, because if not, all those miners and cowboys wandering around on the frontier would snap them up, and create *gasp* interfaith marriages, a.k.a. a disaster.
To criticize only the numbers, marriage at 15 is stretching it by a lot, and if you don't skew the numbers by that 5-year slot, you actually get more guys than gals.
However, the data does show that polygamy does a good job of getting all the women married, while not affecting the men : while 7% of US women died as old maids, only 1% of mormon women never married. (8% for men no matter where)

If only 1% of Mormon women never married, that is a lot of lesbians forced into a marriage they didn't want. Not to mention the 15 year olds forced into a marriage they didn't want. Do you suppose a 15 year old would find a 40-60 year old even more repulsive than the lesbian found men to be? That 8% of men never marry because that is just about the percentage of gays in every population.

And I can't believe that polygamy has no affect on the men, because when one man marries himself 59 women, that is 58 less women for other men to marry. After so many years of polygamy, the culture either has to have several wars to kill off the extra men, or they have to kick them out of the polygamist group and then you have the FLDS problem of dumping extra young men on the larger culture. All cultures that had polygamy had very high rates of inter tribal warfare. The blue tribe attacks the red tribe, killing 14 men on each side, and grabbing 14 marrying age women for wives for the Warriors---those that survived. They also grab any loot they can carry. Now the red tribe is short some women, so they attack the blue tribe, this time killing ....so it goes, back and forth, every year killing off extra men and carrying back eligible wives. It acts as population control, because each woman has fewer children and extra men are killed in battle. If the population gets too big for the land available, just have a few more wars and marry more women. It worked as a form of birth control. Too bad if you were one of the men killed in battle.

So, if early Utah had only 8% of men who didn't marry, it was because men were leaving the state to find themselves a wife, and either bringing her back to Utah, or staying where he found his wife. I suspect quite a few men just left the church and left the state to find a wife. I had great uncles who left the state at about 20-29 and were never heard from again, and if I have more than one in my family group sheets, then it was probably pretty common.

[ulmite]

You misunderstand the 15 year-old figure : the guy writing on fairmormon just took that with no reason other than to "prove" his point.
Also, if you check the census data, there is no big difference between the Utah sex ratio and the USA sex ratio, which seems to prove that men leaving Utah to find a wife was not a massive trend. Of course polygamy had a lot of consequences, just not massive demographic shifts.

[Thoughtful]

Thanks, keep the replies coming!

My hunch though, is that what the essay means is that there were more births per man in a polygamous arrangement. Even if the total birth rate was reduced. Brigham never would have had 56 children with only one woman.

As per usual, male leadership are the only individuals who matter.

[moksha]

There was also the concern about
passing on quality genetic material.
Not all offspring can hit 'High C'.

[Hagoth]

The Nauvoo Polygamy essay says:

Years later in Utah, participants in Nauvoo plural marriage discussed their motives for entering into the practice. God declared in the Book of Mormon that monogamy was the standard; at times, however, He commanded plural marriage so His people could “raise up seed unto [Him].”44 Plural marriage did result in an increased number of children born to believing parents.

Followed by a reference to footnote 45.

It is when you check the footnote that you see how disingenuous this statement really is. Footnote 45 says "On the question of children, see note 6 of “Plural Marriage and Families in Early Utah.” That essay informs us that: “Studies have shown that monogamous women bore more children per wife than did polygamous wives except the first.” In other words, the entire premise given for polygamy as a way to grow the church is false and this essay uses a “carefully worded denial” to circumvent that inconvenient fact. I see this as intentionally misleading. It is true that polygamous MEN have more children, but that is the exact opposite of the reason for polygamy that we were all taught.

So as far as I can tell, all of this is an intentional lie which is wrapped up in a lot of goose-chasing intended to misdirect you from the truth. Way to go, one and only true church.

[2bizE]

If you look at polygamy as a means to raise a lot of children, then statistically it fails. If you look at it as a means for men to have variety in their sexual experience then it hits a home run. Instead of a bat, JS used a flaming sword, which is much better at hitting curve balls.

[Rob4Hope]

The Nauvoo Polygamy essay says:

Years later in Utah, participants in Nauvoo plural marriage discussed their motives for entering into the practice. God declared in the Book of Mormon that monogamy was the standard; at times, however, He commanded plural marriage so His people could “raise up seed unto [Him].”44 Plural marriage did result in an increased number of children born to believing parents.

Followed by a reference to footnote 45.

It is when you check the footnote that you see how disingenuous this statement really is. Footnote 45 says "On the question of children, see note 6 of “Plural Marriage and Families in Early Utah.” That essay informs us that: “Studies have shown that monogamous women bore more children per wife than did polygamous wives except the first.” In other words, the entire premise given for polygamy as a way to grow the church is false and this essay uses a “carefully worded denial” to circumvent that inconvenient fact. I see this as intentionally misleading. It is true that polygamous MEN have more children, but that is the exact opposite of the reason for polygamy that we were all taught.

So as far as I can tell, all of this is an intentional lie which is wrapped up in a lot of goose-chasing intended to misdirect you from the truth. Way to go, one and only true church.

I see this as well. The premise for the practice was given in the BofM--to "raise up seed". But it didn't increase children; it lowered them per wife. So, it fails that. One argument I read is that the women were told that such-and-such brother would take them to the CK...and had they not been given that chance, they would have been left out. This completely ignores the number of faithful men who WERE eligible and ABLE to, as far as the doctrine was concerned, take their wife to the CK.

I am reminded of Zina Huntington and the horrible example her husband became--who remained faithful and served many missions his whole life.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints lies. They lie to protect the reputation of the former leaders...and that reputation is intentionally misleading people to not brand those men tramps, liars, and adulterers.

[Thoughtful]

The Nauvoo Polygamy essay says:

Years later in Utah, participants in Nauvoo plural marriage discussed their motives for entering into the practice. God declared in the Book of Mormon that monogamy was the standard; at times, however, He commanded plural marriage so His people could “raise up seed unto [Him].”44 Plural marriage did result in an increased number of children born to believing parents.

Followed by a reference to footnote 45.

It is when you check the footnote that you see how disingenuous this statement really is. Footnote 45 says "On the question of children, see note 6 of “Plural Marriage and Families in Early Utah.” That essay informs us that: “Studies have shown that monogamous women bore more children per wife than did polygamous wives except the first.” In other words, the entire premise given for polygamy as a way to grow the church is false and this essay uses a “carefully worded denial” to circumvent that inconvenient fact. I see this as intentionally misleading. It is true that polygamous MEN have more children, but that is the exact opposite of the reason for polygamy that we were all taught.

So as far as I can tell, all of this is an intentional lie which is wrapped up in a lot of goose-chasing intended to misdirect you from the truth. Way to go, one and only true church.

I see this as well. The premise for the practice was given in the BofM--to "raise up seed". But it didn't increase children; it lowered them per wife. So, it fails that. One argument I read is that the women were told that such-and-such brother would take them to the CK...and had they not been given that chance, they would have been left out. This completely ignores the number of faithful men who WERE eligible and ABLE to, as far as the doctrine was concerned, take their wife to the CK.

I am reminded of Zina Huntington and the horrible example her husband became--who remained faithful and served many missions his whole life.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints lies. They lie to protect the reputation of the former leaders...and that reputation is intentionally misleading people to not brand those men tramps, liars, and adulterers.

This is what I'm getting at. "Raising seed" to a particular male bloodline, not raising seed as in increasing population. If you look at the temple ceremony, then... who is the Lord we are raising seed unto? The man?

[Rob4Hope]

Wooooooh.....yowzers! OK...I am picking up what your laying down here,...and this is a whole NEW slant I had never considered.

Blood Lines. That is Thule stuff man...that is what NAZI people use to believe. Its Occult man.....

You all making that connection? I know JS was heavily into some weird crap,...but we going there with this?

[Thoughtful]

Wooooooh.....yowzers! OK...I am picking up what your laying down here,...and this is a whole NEW slant I had never considered.

Blood Lines. That is Thule stuff man...that is what NAZI people use to believe. Its Occult man.....

You all making that connection? I know JS was heavily into some weird crap,...but we going there with this?

Crazy, eh?

Family history work is all tracing bloodlines. My MIL was taught that a woman should only do her husband's genealogy. Hers doesn't really matter, as she "belongs" to his line now.


In the temple, wife covenants to hearken to husband *as* he hearkens to God. Does that mean *the same way that* he hearkens to God? As subject to deity?

He brings her through the veil, standing in place of "the Lord".... and then his plural marriages are all to raise seed unto "the Lord". But the only increase in "seed" is his own.

BY taught that women could trade up to higher priesthood. A divorced but sealed woman remarries... their offspring are sealed to her ex- husband -God.

[Rob4Hope]

Wooooooh.....yowzers! OK...I am picking up what your laying down here,...and this is a whole NEW slant I had never considered.

Blood Lines. That is Thule stuff man...that is what NAZI people use to believe. Its Occult man.....

You all making that connection? I know JS was heavily into some weird crap,...but we going there with this?

Crazy, eh?

Family history work is all tracing bloodlines. My MIL was taught that a woman should only do her husband's genealogy. Hers doesn't really matter, as she "belongs" to his line now.


In the temple, wife covenants to hearken to husband *as* he hearkens to God. Does that mean *the same way that* he hearkens to God? As subject to deity?

He brings her through the veil, standing in place of "the Lord".... and then his plural marriages are all to raise seed unto "the Lord". But the only increase in "seed" is his own.

BY taught that women could trade up to higher priesthood. A divorced but sealed woman remarries... their offspring are sealed to her ex- husband -God.

Thule stuff is wicked man. The NAZI used it as a justification to genocide people. And there are ideas of ruling bloodlines now that are esoteric and, if real, scary as hell man.

I didn't know until I read Quinn's book that the "binding" of the Lord had its roots in treasure seeking demonic spirit incantations,...but we are going down a creepy pathway here....

Yowzers!

[Hagoth]

Yeah, I think there's something to this. It's about building dynasties that push elite men higher up the celestial hierarchy. Which prophet was it that bragged about having massive numbers of wives that we're sealed to him postumously? He was making himself a more highly elevated god-king. All of this wacky stuff seems to dovetail pretty well with the endowment.

[Corsair]

Yeah, I think there's something to this. It's about building dynasties that push elite men higher up the celestial hierarchy. Which prophet was it that bragged about having massive numbers of wives that we're sealed to him postumously? He was making himself a more highly elevated god-king. All of this wacky stuff seems to dovetail pretty well with the endowment.

I have a multi-great uncle named Sullivan who was born in the late 1800s and had his own idea for building a dynasty. Apparently my mother met when she was a child. He was raised in Utah in the 1800s but his father was not LDS. Sullivan was twelve years old when he was ordained to the Melchizidek priesthood. His devout mother wanted to do sealings on her own ancestors so she somehow got permission to have her deacon aged son given the higher priesthood so he could be a proxy husband in the temple.

After being raised with frequent temple visits, Uncle Sullivan made it a point to seal every available deceased single woman to him in an effort to bring the blessings of the temple to as many women as possible. That sentence sounds way creepier than was intended. Other family members thought he was a little bit nuts, but largely harmless.