Apostolic Coup d'-etat

[consiglieri]

Ladies and gentlemen, for your listening pleasure, it is my honor to present to you the latest episode of Radio Free Mormon, which is part one in a series of two, and looks at how the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, in a breath-taking power grab, assumed complete control of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/ ... up-d-etat/

I hope you like it.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Culper Jr.]

Listened to this last night; really good!

[oliblish]

I really enjoyed this podcast.

I do have one question. According to the podcast Brigham Young changed the rules of presidential succession to be the apostle who was continuously in the quorum of the 12 for the longest.

From what I have read about John Willard Young (son of Brigham Young) it says that he was secretly ordained as an apostle when he was 11 years old but never was a member of the Q12. He would have had claim to the presidency if the rules were not changed by Lorenzo Snow. It seems that the rule in 1900 was that whoever had been ordained an Apostle the earliest would become the new President.

Can anyone explain how this all fits together. It seems to contradict. Presidential succession in the church is quite complicated is seems...

I got the information about John Willard Young from Wikpedia:

On March 31, 1900, the First Presidency—which consisted of Lorenzo Snow, George Q. Cannon, and Joseph F. Smith—changed the policy of presidential succession.[9] The new president of the church would no longer be the person who had been an ordained apostle the longest; rather, the new president of the church would be the person who had been a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles for the longest period of time.[9] Since Young had never been a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, he could not become the president of the church if Snow died. On April 5, 1900, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve unanimously approved the new policy.[10]

On October 10, 1901, Snow died. Five days later, Young arrived in Salt Lake City from New York City, possibly with the intent of assuming the presidency of the church.[11] However, due to the new policy, Joseph F. Smith was ordained the new president of the church on October 17, 1901.[11] Young returned to New York City, where he lived for the rest of his life. After he died in New York City, Young was buried at Salt Lake City Cemetery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Will ... presidency

[consiglieri]

Now THAT is a fascinating read, oliblish.

I had never heard of that one before. Thanks for posting it!

I guess once you have created fifteen apostles at the head of the church, as was done with the reorganization of the First Presidency in 1847, maybe Brigham Young didn't see any problem with secretly ordaining his 11-year old son as an apostle, even though it was publicly confirmed a decade later.

That is really crazy, isn't it? I think Brigham Young thought he was creating a dynastic succession by this means. The odds would be good that an 11-year old ordained as an apostle would outlive the others ordained much later in life to become the president of the church.

And it might have worked had John Willard Young not been such a profligate.

[oliblish]

I just noticed in the footnotes of the Wikipedia article on John Willard Young it refers to a Dialog Article from Winter of 2002 by Todd Compton titled "John Willard Young, Brigham Young, and the Development of Presidential Succession in the LDS Church".

I have not read the whole thing yet but it looks like it could be interesting...

http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-conte ... 04_125.pdf

[LostGirl]

consiglieri, do you ever publish the script for your podcasts? I ask because I tend to absorb the information better when I can read and highlight the parts that stand out to me. Thanks for your work, I have enjoyed listening to all of your podcasts.

[moksha]

That podcast was very informative. Great listening for any who are not afraid to learn more about the history of their church. Can't imagine what the original traveling quorum of the twelve would make of that altered quorum over a hundred years later voting to give each quorum member the title of prophet, seer, and revelator. I imagine once they got used to the celebrity status that came with such titles they would get over their initial shock and start to enjoy it - provided none were overly humble.

Are there any charts that show the early church quorums and organization?

[græy]

Are there any charts that show the early church quorums and organization?

I second this question. A chart showing which quorums existed when, and with what responsibility or authority would help explain this whole saga. Between multiple high councils, quorums of 12, 70, presidencies, and patriarchs, it is a lot to take in.

[Rob4Hope]

What a fascinating thread and podcast. RFM,...I loved it.

You know at this point I'm out--I haven't hidden that at all, but It has become a fascination to continue to study and learn about LDS history. Every time I turn a corner I encounter something new that I had no idea about. What you mentioned above about the changing policies concerning being a member of the Q12 is an example. Little Young kid was an apostle--and why was that?.... WHAT POSSIBLE REASON could BY have in doing that? And, where is the revelation on that specific action referenced?

And we are supposed to sustain the Q15 as prophets , seers and revelators? How is it possible when some of the things they have taught are so evil? I"m thinking about the really racist stuff by guys like John Taylor, or Mark E. Peterson?

Why does the LDS church keep giving Brigham Young a break over and over and over?...because he made mistakes, but the church is still lead by God?

BULL...

There were people who heard Brigham Young talk about spilling someones blood as a blessing to them, and they went out and did it. ONLY NOW to LDS Authorities say: "Oh, well those members were fanatical!"

BULL.........BULL BULL BULL BULL BULL BULL BULL!!!!

They DID What their LEADER TAUGHT Them to do!

[blazerb]

I am almost finished listening to the podcast. I found it interesting that the story of the earthquake in Nebraska and the Lord's voice in Brother Hyde's cabin was first told in October 1860. I would suggest that the need for a couple of miracles was occasioned by the ordination of Joseph Smith III in April of 1860 as president of the Reorganization. JSIII had a pretty strong claim to the presidency. If I remember correctly, Brigham had already said that JSIII would be president if he came west and became a good polygamist like his father. Since he did not do that, he was outside Brigham's control and thus needed to be disavowed.

[consiglieri]

consiglieri, do you ever publish the script for your podcasts? I ask because I tend to absorb the information better when I can read and highlight the parts that stand out to me. Thanks for your work, I have enjoyed listening to all of your podcasts.

I don't generally publish scripts. If you saw my notes, they are horrendous!

If somebody wanted to transcribe a podcast, tho, I would have no problem with that!

[consiglieri]

Are there any charts that show the early church quorums and organization?

I can't graph a chart here, but D. Michael Quinn has one in his Origins of Power.

It is very simple, and I plan on using the following analogy in part 2. (If you can think of a better, I am all ears!)

In a county prosecutor's office, there are two divisions. Most people think first of the criminal division that has all the deputy prosecutors that prosecute crimes, because they are generally the ones in the news.

But there is another side to the prosecutor's office--the civil side. The civil division is composed of deputy prosecutors who primarily defend the county against civil actions by other parties.

Two completely different divisions comprised of different deputy prosecutors doing very different things.

But the elected prosecutor is over both divisions.

Now, with that in mind, the church Joseph Smith organized had two divisions, as well.

The first division is the government within the organized stakes of Zion, which were in Kirtland and Missouri and finally in Nauvoo. The stake high councils had control over what transpired in the organized stakes.

The second division is the government outside the organized stakes of Zion--or in other words, the mission field. The twelve apostles were over this division, with the Seventy helping them out.

That is why the Q12 is referred to as a "traveling high council," and why they were sent on missions to England; whereas the high council is referred to as a "standing high council." It is also why Joseph Smith made it clear that the apostles have no authority over any of the stakes of Zion. If you read D&C 107 and 124 in this light, it will become apparent that this is what is going on.

The First Presidency, though a quorum "equal in power and authority" to the Q12 and the Seventy, presided over the church both in the stakes of Zion and in the mission field. (Like the elected prosecutor in a county prosecutor's office is over both the criminal division and the civil division.)

Interestingly, D&C 107 says that the stake high council is "equal in power and authority" to the Seventy, the Q12 and also to the First Presidency. But in church we seldom get to that part of D&C 107, generally stopping at the Seventy.

The Nauvoo stake president, William Marks, had a very strong position to make a bid for control of the church, at least where stakes were organized, which is what most people today generally think of as the church.

This is why Brigham Young dismantled not only the Seventy (because he perceived it as a threat, being "equal in power and authority" to the Q12), but also dismantled the Nauvoo stake high council and when he couldn't get the high council to excommunicate the stake president, made sure he was run out of town by the "whistling and whittling brigade."

Unlike the romanticized version handed down in modern day church lessons, the "whistling and whittling brigade" was not composed of young lads whittling sticks with pocket knives, but rather full grown men whittling sticks with bowie knives. The idea was that if the person they were following and whistling at didn't get out of Dodge (or Nauvoo), they would end up resembling the sticks being "whittled."

Brigham Young was intent on making sure that anybody and everybody who didn't support the Q12 leading the church did not stay in Nauvoo, and he employed the "brigade" to take care of business.

So that is my "word diagram" of the way the church was organized in Joseph Smith's day.

Brigham Young not only took over leadership of the church in the mission field from the First Presidency and Seventy, he also took over leadership in the church in the stakes of Zion from the high councils and stake presidents.

THAT is what really gets interesting.

[moksha]

I thought there were even more organized groups than that (everyone with a calling no matter how ceremonial). The Church Patriarch must have entered the diagram at some point. Anyway, my analogy for an organizational chart would be very Rube Goldbergish with solid lines, dotted line, secret trap doors to the wives and maids bedchambers, dashes to the Council of Fifty, the Nauvoo Militia, Porter Rockwell, and Joseph tied to all of it.

I suspect the Traveling Quorum succeeded because of the unifying bond of a hankering for polygamy.

[Emower]

I just noticed in the footnotes of the Wikipedia article on John Willard Young it refers to a Dialog Article from Winter of 2002 by Todd Compton titled "John Willard Young, Brigham Young, and the Development of Presidential Succession in the LDS Church".

I have not read the whole thing yet but it looks like it could be interesting...

http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-conte ... 04_125.pdf

That was a fascinating article. I dont agree with some of his conclusions about the church now having checks and balances at the top. I think we are still pretty autocratic, its just that we have 15 autocrats instead of one. And all those 15 seem to have pet projects, topics, they love to contradict each other.

[Hagoth]

Consiglieri, I won't have a chance to listen for a while but I'm really looking forward to it.

I wonder how many other power grabs of various kinds and lesser degrees there have been in the intervening years. I'm thinking of the way the autopen was used to transfer control of the organization away from Ezra Taft Benson, and how it is apparently still being used to sign all kinds of documents on behalf of Thomas Monson. It seems like the autopen may be the true mouthpiece of God. Maybe it operates something like a Ouija board?

[PalmSprings]

I just noticed in the footnotes of the Wikipedia article on John Willard Young it refers to a Dialog Article from Winter of 2002 by Todd Compton titled "John Willard Young, Brigham Young, and the Development of Presidential Succession in the LDS Church".

I have not read the whole thing yet but it looks like it could be interesting...

http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-conte ... 04_125.pdf

Holy Smokes!! The power grab doesn't surprise me at all because we've all seen this at every level of the church. But The last section "JOHN WILLARD'S FINAL YEARS: SCANDAL AND OBSCURITY," is the real zinger! We once again learn that the church will use you and once your usefulness is done, could care less about your well being. Just wow!!

[deacon blues]

Thanks for your research and perspective. The evolution of Church history is truly a tangled web. I have not trusted Joseph Smith for some time. Now I do not trust Orson Hyde either. The committees of 7 and 11 who supervised the removal of LDS from Missouri is new information to me. What is the source for that? Anyone know?