Another shot at Runnels CES letter

[document]

I've glanced through it, and self-righteously said to myself: "I already know all of this. Nothing to see here. Move along..."

It was very much the same for me. I know of the letter and know generically what the contents are (because everyone talks of it so much), but it doesn't really interest me as an ex-Mormon. While I certainly have beefs with Mormon history and doctrine, it hasn't interested me to do any further research in those fields. I studied Mormonism for 5 years as a believer, 1 hour a day. I studied Mormonism for 2 years during my faith crisis, as much as 3 hours a day. I studied Mormonism for 3 years during my disaffection, somewhere around 1 hour a day. Eventually, I just lost interest.

Now I'm more interested in the culture of Mormonism because that has the most profound effect upon my life. My family is LDS and the culture has shaped who I am. Dissecting that is teaching me more about myself.

I'm sure that if the CES letter had been released during my 2 year faith crisis or even the disaffection period, I would have read it and enjoyed it. It's funny how life is.

[RubinHighlander]

Everyone wants to be the one that put the critics in their place in a definitive manner. Think of the bump in community standing.

Yup, this! I think it's a very common theme that TBMs want to be part of the dramatic last days gospel defender soldier heroes. It's the reason last days drama is still very much alive at the local level in spite of the COB backing off the topic. Poor TBMs have to have something to keep them feeling super special, besides the undies, no coffee and 10% income fees for temple access. Apologists like Mike Ash fall into this category and they encourage others to do the same on social media. It wreaks of desperation.

[moksha]

Link Fairy to the rescue....

Hey, don't ask. Don't tell.

Dustin and Brittany most likely are trying their hand at an apologetic career. It might work for them. It could be like Fox News - tell members what they want to hear and don't worry whether it is true or not. If people want to believe they will glom onto it.

[Thoughtful]

I feel a need to respond briefly to the claims in this article. Nothing is new here for this audience. I am mostly writing this for me, since I am not in a place where I can share these thoughts with my family and member friends. I am thinking of this post as "5 lies told by an anti-anti-Mormon."

Lie #1
In this section, the author mischaracterizes trinitarianism and the Mormon view. There is a huge difference between a book that sometimes talks as if Jesus and God the Father were separate and a book that always (maybe "almost always") talks as if they are separate. That theological gulf is just ignored here. Also, the Zoramites were not trinitarian.

Lie #2
The author acts like Joseph never could have heard of places in Canada. It's Canada. It's close by, not like the capital of the Comoros Islands.

Lie #3
The author acts like early anti-Mormons were the only ones trying to convince people that Joseph had sex with women other than Emma. This ignores the facts that Mormon leaders were trying to convince people that Joseph had sex with women other than Emma. The author also uses the phrase "in an era before birth control." There has never been an era before birth control. Maybe it was in an era before effective birth control. That's a different topic. I once did a basic calculation of the probability that Joseph having no children or few children with women other than Emma. It is not likely, but it is also far from impossible.

Lie #4
The author fails to discuss that Joseph Fielding Smith thought that the differences between the earliest account (maybe 1832, maybe later) were big enough that he had to hide it.

Lie #5
The author fails to deal with the statistical measures that have been put forward showing unusual numbers of parallels. I am not an expert in statistics, but I am a knowledgeable layperson. It seems difficult to just brush those away quantitatively. Also, the FAIR article indicates to me that the Late War is a definite candidate for source material for the BoM. I think plagiarism cases have been won on less evidence.

Their #3 contradicts even the lds.org essay.

[Hagoth]

[I've glanced through it, and self-righteously said to myself: "I already know all of this. Nothing to see here. Move along..."


It is pretty hilarious that they consider Jeremy "The One Mighty And Strong 'Anti-Mormon'."

I read it but there was nothing I wasn't already aware of. I found his FAIR rebuttal much more interesting, particularly his charts about how much of his letter FAIR didn't disagree with.

Another observation: considering that it's a bunch of lies, a lot of people seem to be taking the CES letter pretty seriously.

[NOMelgänger]

I read the first 20 or so pages tonight. I hadn't heard about any of the books Smith plagiarized until just now. I thought I was done with all this before, now I'm getting incredibly angry at what Smith did and what he must have thought of his followers. I feel like such a dupe.

[Emower]

I read the first 20 or so pages tonight. I hadn't heard about any of the books Smith plagiarized until just now. I thought I was done with all this before, now I'm getting incredibly angry at what Smith did and what he must have thought of his followers. I feel like such a dupe.

There are soooo many things that you will continue to discover and learn about. Some of it will affect you, some of it will not be a big deal. What affects you will also change over time. We are all dupes at some point. Dont beat yourself up about it.

[Hagoth]

INFLUENTIAL ANTI-MORMON CAUGHT SPREADING MISINFORMATION ABOUT LDS CHURCH

The title should be enough to tell anyone with an ounce of critical thinking skills that what follows will not be a fair and balanced review. Ad-hominim attack is a favored LDS apologist tactic and it immediately invalidates whatever point they're trying to make.

My prediction is that Brother Phelps will either suffer a great deal of cognitive dissonance for the rest of his life or, I hope, he will eventually join us here. We look forward to getting to know you, Dustin!