For A New Name. A Fresh Look At 28

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
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Give It Time
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For A New Name. A Fresh Look At 28

Post by Give It Time » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:57 pm

I have to apologise. I just looked at the lesson title, knew the gist of the story and the slant the church would give it and based my pleas on that.

I've been reading the lesson closely, because I'm thinking of attending the lesson in my ward and throwing in a comment, if the discussion goes too far in the repentance/chastise direction. I'm reading closely, because I don't want my comments to derail the lesson.

As far as the historical aspect, I'd suggest just relating the facts without affixing innocence or guilt. The members already believe Joseph was unjustly jailed. You can leave out words like "innocent" and "unjust" and I don't think anyone will notice. Many of the people will be asleep, anyway. I can see why you would want to take a different approach, but I am truly aiming for a healing lesson in my comments. To that end, I would keep the history to the barest possible minimum. If someone calls you out on that, you may have discovered a kindred spirit.

I remember reading the story of Joseph's imprisonment when I was hurting. It gave me absolutely zero solace. I didn't want my father to suffer the punishments listed in those passages. I didn't want the rewards. All I wanted was my mother back. I wanted my parents to love each other. I wanted an eternal family. I wanted my marriage to be happy. That's what I wanted. You can keep all the other crap, not to sound ungrateful.

Now that some time has passed, I'm pretty appalled at what I read in 121. This is clear spiritual abuse. I can't imagine, nor would I worship the God communing with Joseph in these passages. I don't know what kind of disorder Joseph had, as manifest by these passages and how they were exacerbated by the stress of the situation and the dungeon-nature of his conditions, but wow! I'm not even. I won't go there. I'll just shut up and try to be compassionate.

I tried to find even one verse that might be truly non-toxically comforting and couldn't.

I will keep going through the lesson and what I can find, but this lesson is just...just...no words.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Give It Time
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Re: For A New Name. A Fresh Look At 28

Post by Give It Time » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:50 pm

I had to see to a matter, here, but I'm back.

The very last part of 122:7 and all of verse 8 are usable.

I don't like 121:7, because that verse, to me, is more about being passive than solving the problem, but there are people who could take comfort from that verse and I'll concede that.

Verse 121:8, just doesn't sound like the Savior.

Verses 121:9-10 are nice, but verse 11, turns them into spiritual abuse, so be sure to stop there, if you can.

As far as pointing out Liberty Jail being a center of instruction, I know someone who used to thrive on being a martyr. He loved it when things didn't go his way. There's leverage there. So, my comment to that instruction is to use your agancy. I know the instruction is written as a command, so I'll give my feedback in command form: use your agency.

The question asking how 121 and 122 have blessed member's lives. I'd suggest calling a couple of people a few days in advance, assign this question to them to answer. After that, open up the discussion.

I have no objection to the Neil Maxwell segment.

The Hebrews and Peter verses are nice. This is a marvelous opportunity to speak about grace. One thought I've been entertaining about grace lately is when one suffers innocently for another's misuse of agency (Elizabeth Smart it's a good example, here), then her innocent suffering is the "work" that make faith live. I know of no quote. As far as I know, that's my original thought. Just because no GA has said it, doesn't mean it's blasphemy. Would anyone dare to suggest that young Ms. Smart or anyone in her family had any "work" to do before they merited the Savior's healing balm? I doubt it.

Also the hymn, "How Gentle God's Commands" came to my mind as I was reading the Peter verses. Especially the part of "I'll drop my burdens at His feet and bear a song away". If the rest of the hymn or that verse fits, that might be nice to add.


Okay, I don't like 127:2, but I like the spirit of it. You could quote segments of it and tell the class, the Lord will help you say to your troubles, just as He did with Joseph, "bring it"!

I'm going to post this before I lose it.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Give It Time
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Re: For A New Name. A Fresh Look At 28

Post by Give It Time » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:21 pm

I don't like the church's approach about testing and proving. I've come to not like it at all, but they are trying to get us to take our trials, learn from them (if there's something to be learned, there may not be) and take that pain and do something good with it. For example, my therapist was molested as a child. She doesn't consider it of good. She doesn't consider it good, but she did make good come from it.

This would be an appropriate point to get off the God caused this bandwagon. We knew we were coming to a place where people would not use their agency for good. Good doesn't interfere with others' agency.

However, the church will only let you stretch the box so far. To that end, I suggest keeping 98:12 and 136:31. Toss the others. Their just redundant and these, verses, to me still get the idea across, but brings in less toxic dogma.

Please, in the name of all that is holy, do not teach about adversity that we invite. Members get thousands, literally thousands, of opportunities to hear that. Let this one lesson be an oasis of comfort for the people who suffer, because sometimes life is just cruddy. In fact. If someone brings it up and really, really wants to discuss ask them and all like minded people to go discuss it in the hall. That's my suggestion. Yes, it's valid. Yes, it's doctrine, but so is the idea that people can innocently suffer and the Saints just aren't really brilliant at sensitivity. Here's an opportunity for them to practice.

D&C 122:7 is over-dramatic, but it's well known and call be true if that is a person's choice.

I don't like narcissistic verses like 121:8. Perhaps some story about someone getting a peaceful happy ending instead of that verse.

The next bullet point is a pearl of great price, yeah, verily. I'd keep it.

The verse 2 Nephi 2:11 is good, too. You could throw in some Chinese wisdom here, too. The you/yang symbol has a little bit of the opposite color in the main color. In a great adversity, there is a little bit of good and vice versa.

One of my favorite stories and has been for a few years. Start it at the subheading "Gracefully Dealing With The UPS And Downs Of Life"

https://books.google.com/books?id=id_Hb ... se&f=false

Posting so it doesn't get lost.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Give It Time
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Re: For A New Name. A Fresh Look At 28

Post by Give It Time » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:02 pm

The verses at the end of the bullet point about innocent suffering are actually victim blaming. Many people suffer at the hands of people who want to oppress and control and these are exactly the excuses they use. These verses are dangerous and I wouldn't use them.

The scriptures under the first bullet point under the fourth teaching point about the Lord's counsel to those who experience adversity. I would choose D & C 124:8 and leave the rest, because they're redundant and 124:8 puts forth the healthiest view. Also, I take some issue about being patient in suffering. There are times when people are in bad situations and they really need to take action to get out.


Giving thanks in moments of adversity is one of the most important things you can do. Elizabeth Smart credits it as an important coping tool in the situation and in healing. Too bad the verse for it isn't better. If there were a better one, I'd suggest switching it, but I don't know of one. This information can carry down into the trials embittering a person, too.

I don't like the care for the soul and not the body. I don't believe in letting solvable problems fester and continue to fester and work their toxic cursings so a person can sit on their thumbs and do nothing to solve their own problems and excuse themselves from helping people in need in this life. That's just me, though.

Same goes for the next verses.

I think the bullet point about giving and receiving help is an important one.


The part about the despairing is good, I guess. It's just that I put my trust in God for a long time. He let me down. My personal view is God needs to prove himself trustworthy. My personal ax. It will be fine for your lesson, though. There's comfort in most cases, there.

Most of the stuff under the promises for those who remain faithful, I found beautiful, healing and empowering. I didn't like the more narcissistic verses and I wonder just what kind of members the church is trying to create. They wrote the manual and chose the verses.

I'm not a huge fan of the final two GA quotes but one of the things many people who have gone through industrial strength crap have reported learning is an increased sense of compassion. Neither GA explicitly says that, but the conversation could be segued that way.

What I would add is compassion, aka charity is the true love of Christ. I recently had a conversation with a Buddhist monk and he said something for the ages. He said, "we all are born with the seed of compassion, we need to give it a regular boost". Amen.

Adversity, for those who suffer it and those who succor it is an opportunity for us to boost that seed of compassion and by boosting that compassion, we become more like Christ.

That's it. I hope you don't mind my being so thorough. This review was just as much for me as it was for you. Overall, the best stuff appears to be at the end. You could quite possibly just skip the first part and start at the end.

I didn't take time to proofread. I hope everything's clear. These are just my suggestions. I'm sorry my responses on your thread weren't more thought out.

Good luck. This lesson does have the potential to be a really beautiful lesson. Just have to dig through lots of mud and, remember, lotuses grow in mud (another analogy for adversity).
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Give It Time
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Re: For A New Name. A Fresh Look At 28

Post by Give It Time » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:10 pm

Final thing, for now.

Look.

I think it's great the church is becoming more transparent with it's history and publishing materials to that end. I'm grateful for the effort with the Daughters In My Kingdom book, but there is a demographic that is disaffecting and our needs are sorely underserved and ignored. That demographic I hope the LGBTQA demographic didn't mind my sharing, but I'm speaking of abuse victims and I don't think anyone will disagree with me about those of us who are not strictly hetero have received a lot of abuse.

As I was writing my comments, I thought many times there need to be supplemental materials for how to succor and support those who are healing. For this particular lesson, that is far more important than the history. At the very least, have lessons such as this reviewed by a board of mental health professionals and do not over rule them.

Pipe dream.


Oh, and I'll be skipping the lesson.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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moksha
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Re: For A New Name. A Fresh Look At 28

Post by moksha » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:04 am

Give It Time, I am curious about 121:29
29 All thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, shall be revealed and set forth upon all who have endured valiantly for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
In its full sense, it should have included "Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominations, Principalities, Powers, and Virtues". I can understand why Joseph would skip the Virtues, but why ignore the Seraphim and Cherubim?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Give It Time
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Re: For A New Name. A Fresh Look At 28

Post by Give It Time » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:15 pm

moksha wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:04 am
Give It Time, I am curious about 121:29
29 All thrones and dominions, principalities and powers, shall be revealed and set forth upon all who have endured valiantly for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
In its full sense, it should have included "Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominations, Principalities, Powers, and Virtues". I can understand why Joseph would skip the Virtues, but why ignore the Seraphim and Cherubim?
They were out eating their Mormonized fries.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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