Are Apostles "Prophets, Seers and Revelators"?

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consiglieri
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Are Apostles "Prophets, Seers and Revelators"?

Post by consiglieri » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:51 am

It has become common to sustain the apostles as "prophets, seers and revelators."

For some reason, I thought they were denominated as such in the Doctrine and Covenants.

Now, thanks to a prod from Moksha, I checked the D&C and find only Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith referred to with this appellation.
JOSEPH SMITH
Doctrine and Covenants 107:92
Behold, here is wisdom; yea, to be a seer, a revelator, a translator, and a prophet, having all the gifts of God which he bestows upon the head of the church.
HYRUM SMITH

Doctrine and Covenants 124:94,125
And from this time forth I appoint unto him that he may be a prophet, and a seer, and a revelator unto my church, as well as my servant Joseph;

Am I missing something?

All the Best!

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Corsair
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Re: Are Apostles "Prophets, Seers and Revelators"?

Post by Corsair » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:29 am

Thomas Spencer Monson was sustained as Prophet, Seer, and Revelator at the April 2008 General Conference. Dieter Uchtdorf led the sustainings in a very systematic way by "quorum". First, Monson was sustained by the remaining two members of the First Presidency. Then Elder Uchtdorf asked for the sustaining vote by the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. The Presidency of the Seventy was next followed by the quorums of the Seventy. This continued on through the general membership of the High Priests and Elders culminating when finally all the rest of the faithful Saints in attendance were asked to stand and raise their right arm to the square.

It turned out to be a little confusing to the membership at first and this was not done when Hinckley, Hunter, or Benson was sustained. At each of the half dozen steps of sustaining, Thomas Monson was referred to as Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. Every six months all fifteen apostles get sustained as Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. Your thesis is intriguing and I can't imagine having a forum where an apostle would happily explain the evidence showing that Prophet, Seer, and Revelator should necessarily be applied to them also.

I hear assurances from local leadership about this, but it's presented as testimony, not as systematic theology. This is a model for a lot of LDS doctrine. The reasoning for continued reverence for continuing revelation through a prophet is somewhat circular. We have assurances that it is true but rarely do we have a large set of documentary evidence presented.

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moksha
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Re: Are Apostles "Prophets, Seers and Revelators"?

Post by moksha » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:30 am

In a Church that prides itself on restoration, the Quorum voting themselves the title of a prophet, seer, and revelator seems wide afield from the original meaning. In the scriptures, those were not institutionalized positions, but rather was a singular rare gift given by God in times of need.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Corsair
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Re: Are Apostles "Prophets, Seers and Revelators"?

Post by Corsair » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:42 am

moksha wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:30 am
In the scriptures, those were not institutionalized positions, but rather was a singular rare gift given by God in times of need.
That sounds like the apologetic reasoning given when we express any skepticism over not hearing any prophesying, seeing, or revelating from modern LDS leaders.

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StarbucksMom
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Re: Are Apostles "Prophets, Seers and Revelators"?

Post by StarbucksMom » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:57 am

LDS "Apostles"???
No.
More like Liars, CEOs, and Manipulators.

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oliver_denom
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Re: Are Apostles "Prophets, Seers and Revelators"?

Post by oliver_denom » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:13 am

This is from B.H. Robert's history of the Church, dedication of the Kirtland Temple.
Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 2, pgs.417-18 wrote: I then made a short address, and called upon the several quorums, and all the congregation of Saints, to acknowledge the Presidency as Prophets and Seers, and uphold them by their prayers. They all covenanted to do so, by rising. I then called upon the quorums and congregation of Saints to acknowledge the Twelve Apostles, who were present, as Prophets, Seers, Revelators, and special witnesses to all the nations of the earth, holding the keys of the kingdom, to unlock it, or cause it to be done, among them, and uphold them by their prayers, which they assented to by rising.

I next called upon the quorums and congregation of Saints to acknowledge the presidents of Seventies, who act as their representatives, as Apostles and special witnesses to the nations, to assist the Twelve in opening the Gospel kingdom among all people. and to uphold them by their prayers, which they did by rising. I then called upon the quorums and congregation of Saints to acknowledge the High Council of Kirtland, in all the authority of the Melchisedek Priesthood, and uphold them by their prayers, which they assented to by rising. I then called upon the quorums and congregation of Saints to acknowledge, and uphold by their prayers, the Bishops of Kirtland and Zion, and their counselors, in all the authority of the Aaronic Priesthood, which they did by rising.

I next called upon the quorums and congregation of Saints to acknowledge the High Council of Zion, and uphold them by their prayers, in all the authority of the High Priesthood, which they did by rising. I then called upon the quorums and all the Saints to acknowledge the president of the Elders, and his counselors, and uphold them by their prayers, which they did by rising. The quorums and congregation of Saints were then called upon to acknowledge, and uphold by their prayers, the presidents and counselors, of the Priests, Teachers and Deacons, which they did by rising.

The vote was unanimous in every instance, and I prophesied to all, that inasmuch as they would uphold these men in their several stations, (alluding to the different quorums in the Church), the Lord would bless them; yea, in the name of Christ, the blessings of heaven should be theirs; and when the Lord's anointed go forth to proclaim the word, bearing [p.419] testimony to this generation, if they receive it they shall be blessed; but if not, the judgments of God will follow close upon them, until that city or that house which rejects them, shall be left desolate.
Last edited by oliver_denom on Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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consiglieri
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Re: Are Apostles "Prophets, Seers and Revelators"?

Post by consiglieri » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:14 am

Thanks, Oliver!

I just tumbled to this through googling a Wikipedia article which cited the same source.

I then checked the Joseph Smith Papers project to make sure the History accurately reflected the sketchbook on this point.

It does!

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... dedication

Thanks again!

consiglieri
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Re: Are Apostles "Prophets, Seers and Revelators"?

Post by consiglieri » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:19 am

I jumped the gun.

The Sketchbook has Joseph Smith calling the apostles "prophets and seers."

It is the History that adds "revelators" to make it "prophets, seers and revelators."

"Revelators" is not in the original.

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Re: Are Apostles "Prophets, Seers and Revelators"?

Post by oliver_denom » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:21 am

I always thought it was interesting how the definitions of these words have changed. Here's a description from Mosiah 8:
Mosiah 8:13 wrote:13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer.

14 And behold, the king of the people who are in the land of Zarahemla is the man that is commanded to do these things, and who has this high gift from God.

15 And the king said that a seer is greater than a prophet.

16 And Ammon said that a seer is a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have, except he should possess the power of God, which no man can; yet a man may have great power given him from God.

17 But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.
There is precisely a zero percent chance that any of the 15 sustained as "prophet, seer, and revelator" would claim to have any of these abilities.
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oliver_denom
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Re: Are Apostles "Prophets, Seers and Revelators"?

Post by oliver_denom » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:23 am

consiglieri wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:19 am
I jumped the gun.

The Sketchbook has Joseph Smith calling the apostles "prophets and seers."

It is the History that adds "revelators" to make it "prophets, seers and revelators."

"Revelators" is not in the original.
According to Mosiah 8, a seer is both a revelator and a prophet. The titles seem redundant.
“You want to know something? We are still in the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages--they haven't ended yet.” - Vonnegut

L'enfer, c'est les autres - JP

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oliver_denom
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Re: Are Apostles "Prophets, Seers and Revelators"?

Post by oliver_denom » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:34 am

This Dialogue article suggests that the purpose of the title is to ensure the succession process:
Dialogue, Vol.20, No.2, p.55 wrote: McKay died at age ninety-six in January 1970. Joseph Fielding Smith, the senior apostle, was ninety-three. Even the Twelve wondered if an immediate reorganization was appropriate or wise; but when the council met to consider the question, "all agreed it was right to proceed with the reorganization promptly" (Kimball and Kimball 1970, 387)--a reaffirmation of the principle of seniority. At the April 1970 general conference, Harold B. Lee, first counselor, and Spencer W. Kimball, acting president of the Twelve, both spoke on the succession process after the solemn assembly. Kimball explained:
The appointments have long been made, the authority given, the keys delivered.... No running for position, no electioneering, no stump speeches.... People talk about precedent. If it is precedent, it has become such by repetition of the revealed order from the beginning.... [A prophet] must be certain of his divine appointment, of his celestial ordination, and his authority to call to service, to ordain, to pass keys which fit eternal locks (Kimball 1970, 92-94).

Kimball's persuasive defense of apostolic succession was followed by Lee's address to the question, "How is the president of the Church chosen or elected?"
The beginning of the call of one to be President of the Church actually begins when he is called, ordained and set apart to become a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.... All members of the First Presidency and the Twelve are regularly sustained as "prophets, seers and revelators,"... This means that any one of the apostles so, chosen and ordained, could preside over the Church... on one condition, and that being that he was the senior member or the president, of that body. Occasionally the question is asked as to whether or not one other than the senior member of the Twelve could become President. Some thought on this matter would suggest that any other than the senior member could become President of the church only if the Lord reveals to that President of the Twelve that someone other than himself could be selected (Lee 1970, 28).

Lee concluded his sermon by quoting Woodruff's 1887 defense of apostolic succession and praising Joseph Fielding Smith and the significance of his call. Not since the October 1877 general conference had there been such a public explanation and defense of the principles of apostolic succession. The successions of Lee and Kimball produced no modifications of the law of succession.
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Not Buying It
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Re: Are Apostles "Prophets, Seers and Revelators"?

Post by Not Buying It » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:25 pm

Not a single one of them has ever done anything that would qualify them for any of those titles. Those titles may be conferred, but they have never been earned.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Give It Time
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Re: Are Apostles "Prophets, Seers and Revelators"?

Post by Give It Time » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:30 pm

When I was growing up, I was taught, the prophet is the PSR. Everyone else is just an apostle. Just as there was only one Jesus and all the other guys were apostles. There's variation in number of keys and their permanency, but it comes down to the church is led by the prophet and only him. That's a very general idea of what I was taught. It's the reason I never gave Mckonkie much heed. Nor do I Oaks or Bednar, etc. To me, they're apostles, general authorities, we give general advice over my specific life. I am the specific authority over my life and I listen to the principles they teach and I govern myself. That is what I was taught in my home ward, home neighborhood, SLC, heavily populated with GAs stake.

I went to the Y and found apostle worship and people giving Elder Benson's pronouncements every bit as much weight as President Kimball's. I asked them how they didn't find this confusing or contradictory. They asked me how I could not find my views blasphemous. I really felt sorry for them. I only really listened to the prophet. He usually gives a nice milk doctrine speech, so it's not anything outlandish.

Now that I'm older, I'm hearing the 15 all saying they're pretty much equal and all fifteen need to be on board with a decision before it's not reached. In one way, this postpones a future prophet overturning a present prophet, but the term "too many chefs" comes to mind.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Re: Are Apostles "Prophets, Seers and Revelators"?

Post by blazerb » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:51 pm

Not Buying It wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:25 pm
Not a single one of them has ever done anything that would qualify them for any of those titles. Those titles may be conferred, but they have never been earned.
When I was in grad school, a professor was asked about a certain group in a particular field. The professor replied that everything they did was bullsh*t. They got together, gave each other awards, and held conferences in which they presented their work. They had the appearance of academics and were able to fill up their CV's, but they were not doing anything real. I now see that the church is something like that. Leaders call other leaders. They praise each other and give themselves 6 figure salaries, but they never do anything to justify their positions. They don't confront error in the world. They tell the members how they are never enough. They don't broadcast the Lord's will. They hire public affairs specialists to find out what works with focus groups. I'm angry at myself for not seeing it earlier.

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moksha
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Re: Are Apostles "Prophets, Seers and Revelators"?

Post by moksha » Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:14 am

Corsair wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:42 am
moksha wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:30 am
In the scriptures, those were not institutionalized positions, but rather was a singular rare gift given by God in times of need.
That sounds like the apologetic reasoning given when we express any skepticism over not hearing any prophesying, seeing, or revelating from modern LDS leaders.
I doubt the apologists would ever ask the question regarding the process of being appointed to be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator by a committee.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Re: Are Apostles "Prophets, Seers and Revelators"?

Post by wtfluff » Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:28 am

oliver_denom wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:34 am
This Dialogue article suggests that the purpose of the title is to ensure the succession process:
Dialogue, Vol.20, No.2, p.55 wrote: McKay died at age ninety-six in January 1970. Joseph Fielding Smith, the senior apostle, was ninety-three. Even the Twelve wondered if an immediate reorganization was appropriate or wise; but when the council met to consider the question, "all agreed it was right to proceed with the reorganization promptly" (Kimball and Kimball 1970, 387)--a reaffirmation of the principle of seniority. At the April 1970 general conference, Harold B. Lee, first counselor, and Spencer W. Kimball, acting president of the Twelve, both spoke on the succession process after the solemn assembly. Kimball explained:
The appointments have long been made, the authority given, the keys delivered.... No running for position, no electioneering, no stump speeches.... People talk about precedent. If it is precedent, it has become such by repetition of the revealed order from the beginning.... [A prophet] must be certain of his divine appointment, of his celestial ordination, and his authority to call to service, to ordain, to pass keys which fit eternal locks (Kimball 1970, 92-94).

Kimball's persuasive defense of apostolic succession was followed by Lee's address to the question, "How is the president of the Church chosen or elected?"
The beginning of the call of one to be President of the Church actually begins when he is called, ordained and set apart to become a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.... All members of the First Presidency and the Twelve are regularly sustained as "prophets, seers and revelators,"... This means that any one of the apostles so, chosen and ordained, could preside over the Church... on one condition, and that being that he was the senior member or the president, of that body. Occasionally the question is asked as to whether or not one other than the senior member of the Twelve could become President. Some thought on this matter would suggest that any other than the senior member could become President of the church only if the Lord reveals to that President of the Twelve that someone other than himself could be selected (Lee 1970, 28).

Lee concluded his sermon by quoting Woodruff's 1887 defense of apostolic succession and praising Joseph Fielding Smith and the significance of his call. Not since the October 1877 general conference had there been such a public explanation and defense of the principles of apostolic succession. The successions of Lee and Kimball produced no modifications of the law of succession.
All of that "stuff" in that quote is nice... BUT. the Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was established in 1923. They can spew stuff about "laws of succession" and "inspiration" and "authority" all they want, but the fact of the matter is: Succession is dictated in the articles of incorporation of the Corporation™.

Prophet, Seer, Reveltor, Apostle... Those are really nothing more than corporate titles, and have nothing to do with ability of the old guy's holding the title to actually do any of those things.

Bottom line: They're the "board of directors" for a multi-billion dollar real-estate corporation. Unfortunately, those billions were willingly given to the Corporation by followers of a pyramid scheme that doesn't give anything back to those low-level "members".
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Thoughtful
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Re: Are Apostles "Prophets, Seers and Revelators"?

Post by Thoughtful » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:59 am

I was taught that the President of the church is THE "PSR."

The Q15 collectively hold all the same keys that the President holds. So the Q15 are collectively, but not individually PSR.

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Give It Time
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Re: Are Apostles "Prophets, Seers and Revelators"?

Post by Give It Time » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:56 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:59 am
I was taught that the President of the church is THE "PSR."

The Q15 collectively hold all the same keys that the President holds. So the Q15 are collectively, but not individually PSR.
Very similar to what I was taught.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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