Noah had technology

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
Thoughtful
Posts: 1113
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:54 pm

Noah had technology

Post by Thoughtful » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:08 pm

According to my child's seminary teacher.

He had all kinds of technology, because revelation.

I said, "yeah no he didn't" and we had a great conversation about how 1- there's no evidence of a flood, let alone tech, and things tend to stay in the earth record as artifacts. And 2-technology changes intelligence, by opening up new ways to think. Discusses an article about the invention of window glass changed day to day and religious life, and consequently, intellectual thought, and compared it to the invention of screen technology and how that has changed society in the last 40 years. The point I was trying to make was that Noah having tech would not have been inconsequential for thought.

Then kid puts two and two together and says why were the Jaredites worried about windows, since they weren't invented. So we talked about anachronisms. Kid figures that JS was recording meaning (i.e. brother of Jared was brainstorming, and JS recorded the gist of that by using ideas of how he might brainstorm the problem).

But this might be conflict coming between me and Spouseman because Spouseman is already feeling like the kids aren't going to stick with it and he's gonna be a lone man in the church.

User avatar
Palerider
Posts: 1847
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:44 am

Re: Noah had technology

Post by Palerider » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:32 pm

Sometimes it's good just to ask for a reference on that kind of stuff.

Like, "Oh yeah? Your seminary teacher told you that? Ask him where he found that in the scriptures or which GA conference talk told him that, cause your Mom\Dad wants to read it."

Then see what happens...
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

User avatar
Snowdrop
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:13 pm

Re: Noah had technology

Post by Snowdrop » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:46 am

My BIL is convinced that the ark was filled with DNA samples and the technology to grow animals from said samples. Yikes.
I don't believe we were born to be sheep in a flock
To pantomime prayers with the hands of a clock
- Paul Simon

Spicy McHaggis
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Noah had technology

Post by Spicy McHaggis » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:32 am

Snowdrop wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:46 am
My BIL is convinced that the ark was filled with DNA samples and the technology to grow animals from said samples. Yikes.
That's every bit as plausible as the original ark story: millions of species of animals, reptiles & insects on a wooden boat built by one guy and maybe two of his kids without power tools or a dry dock.

User avatar
deacon blues
Posts: 1319
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 am

Re: Noah had technology

Post by deacon blues » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:07 am

The problem to me is, teachers explaining Noah in weird unbelievable ways is approved; teachers explaining evolution in reasonable ways is discouraged- overtly and covertly. Kudos to your kid for thinking about windows.😀
God is Love. God is Truth

User avatar
Brent
Posts: 456
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:39 am

Re: Noah had technology

Post by Brent » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:28 pm

Of course he had tech! Rocks and sticks and stuff...

Thoughtful
Posts: 1113
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:54 pm

Re: Noah had technology

Post by Thoughtful » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:31 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:07 am
The problem to me is, teachers explaining Noah in weird unbelievable ways is approved; teachers explaining evolution in reasonable ways is discouraged- overtly and covertly. Kudos to your kid for thinking about windows.😀
This kid's shelf was rocked hard when YM leaders insisted evolution isn't real. Kid has a very scientific mind, so...

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 3267
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: Noah had technology

Post by moksha » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:58 pm

Was the seminary teacher referring to the crystalline nanotechnology of Noah's seer stone? The steam powered trains for transporting lumber and running the saw mills? The hydraulic lifts for the animals? The B-52 transport planes for bringing the African, Australian, North and South American, Arctic and Antarctic flora and fauna to the ark? The 80-ton metal presses and acetylene welding torches for fashioning the holding cages? The huge refrigeration facilities for food preservation? Of course, they had technology. Technology up the ying yang. Otherwise trying to pull off such an operation without this technology would make the Noah rescue and survival project seem like a fairy tale. Seminary teachers are not dodos, they know these sort of things.

Image
Noah's Ark at sea
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 4655
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Noah had technology

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:03 am

Hugh Nibley did a similar thing when he tried to patch up the innate silliness of the Jaredite story by claiming that they had air compressors and other technology.

I remember when I was a kid struggling with the Santa Clause story and I tried to salvage it by convincing myself that he used a sub-orbital sleigh with a pressurized cockpit and rocket engines. Same thing.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
Emower
Posts: 1037
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:35 pm
Location: Carson City

Re: Noah had technology

Post by Emower » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:52 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:03 am
Hugh Nibley did a similar thing when he tried to patch up the innate silliness of the Jaredite story by claiming that they had air compressors and other technology.
What!? Dont tell me he went that crazy?
My dad loves Nibley. I thought he was going to slap me when I told him that I didnt give a hill of beans for Nibleys stuff.

User avatar
deacon blues
Posts: 1319
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 am

Re: Noah had technology

Post by deacon blues » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:44 am

Thoughtful wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:31 pm
deacon blues wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:07 am
The problem to me is, teachers explaining Noah in weird unbelievable ways is approved; teachers explaining evolution in reasonable ways is discouraged- overtly and covertly. Kudos to your kid for thinking about windows.😀
This kid's shelf was rocked hard when YM leaders insisted evolution isn't real. Kid has a very scientific mind, so...
Yep. Me too. ;)
God is Love. God is Truth

User avatar
LSOF
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:16 pm
Location: Mare Tranquilitatis
Contact:

Re: Noah had technology

Post by LSOF » Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:36 pm

There has been some speculation on the technological advancement of the Patriarchs, particularly of Noah. The Faithful Origins and Ontology League offers the following opinion:

The Faithful Origins and Ontology League holds that every word of Scripture and latter-day revelation is literally true. All life must therefore have perished in the Deluge (Gen. vii: 21-23). To repopulate the Earth, Noah must have gathered animals sufficient, and food wherewithal to feed them all. However, they could not have fit in an ark of the dimensions given in Gen vi: 14-16. How then did this happen?

Our Mare Fecunditatis chapter has given us access to the archives of the Lunar Society of Friends. In them are documented multiple visits by so-called "Time Lords" and "Time Ladies" with "TARDISes", including one during the 24th century B.C. when the Deluge occurred. One of them, called "the Saviour", came down unto Noah to warn him of the plan of another Time Lord, called "the Master", (aliases "the LORD", "Lordgod", "Jehovah") to flood the Earth. The Saviour lent Noah a TARDIS, which he installed into his ark and into which he sent all the animals and food. The abilities of a TARDIS to compress large interior spaces into a small volume, as well as to sequester mass, are well-documented. Thus, it is evident that Noah must have used a TARDIS which could easily accommodate the animals &c. while allowing his ark to remain seaworthy through all the tempests unto which God subjected the Earth. For the wickedness of mankind, this was excised from the Bible by its compilers. It is not necessary for the Bible to contain all truth in order for it to contain only truth.

The official finding of the Faithful Origins and Ontology League is that Noah employed a TARDIS installed on his ark for the purpose of preserving life during the Deluge.
"I appreciate your flesh needs to martyr me." Parture

"There is no contradiction between faith and science --- true science." Dr Zaius

Pastor, Lunar Society of Friends; CEO, Faithful Origins and Ontology League

User avatar
Corsair
Posts: 2931
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: Noah had technology

Post by Corsair » Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:14 pm

LSOF wrote:
Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:36 pm
The official finding of the Faithful Origins and Ontology League is that Noah employed a TARDIS installed on his ark for the purpose of preserving life during the Deluge.
Was it the new woman Doctor or just one of the British guys? In any case, alien technology is just as plausible as the literal story in Genesis 8.

Besides, the faithful timeline puts the flood at 2400 BC. It remains curious that Sumer (3500 BC - 2100 BC), the Egyptian Old Kingdom (2686 BC - 2181 BC), Norte Chico (Peru 3500 C - 1800 BC), Minoan Crete (2600 BC - 1100 BC), and a dozen other ancient civilizations curiously existed before and after this time but failed to record the baptism of Earth.

User avatar
LSOF
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:16 pm
Location: Mare Tranquilitatis
Contact:

Re: Noah had technology

Post by LSOF » Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:51 pm

Corsair wrote:
Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:14 pm
LSOF wrote:
Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:36 pm
The official finding of the Faithful Origins and Ontology League is that Noah employed a TARDIS installed on his ark for the purpose of preserving life during the Deluge.
Was it the new woman Doctor or just one of the British guys?
Neither. It was a non-binary incarnation, the forty-fifth, who called themselves "the Saviour".

Regarding the civilizations that allegedly survived the Deluge: The Faithful Origins and Ontology League has no settled opinion on the matter. There are two main camps: those who believe that other Time Lords deployed TARDISes to save these other civilizations, and those that believe that these civilizations floated to the top of the flood-waters intact, and re-settled in their former places afterwards. There is a fringe that claims that these civilizations never existed, but they are scorned by both main camps.
"I appreciate your flesh needs to martyr me." Parture

"There is no contradiction between faith and science --- true science." Dr Zaius

Pastor, Lunar Society of Friends; CEO, Faithful Origins and Ontology League

User avatar
SunbeltRed
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:26 pm

Re: Noah had technology

Post by SunbeltRed » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:59 pm

LSOF wrote:
Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:36 pm
There has been some speculation on the technological advancement of the Patriarchs, particularly of Noah. The Faithful Origins and Ontology League offers the following opinion:

The Faithful Origins and Ontology League holds that every word of Scripture and latter-day revelation is literally true. All life must therefore have perished in the Deluge (Gen. vii: 21-23). To repopulate the Earth, Noah must have gathered animals sufficient, and food wherewithal to feed them all. However, they could not have fit in an ark of the dimensions given in Gen vi: 14-16. How then did this happen?

Our Mare Fecunditatis chapter has given us access to the archives of the Lunar Society of Friends. In them are documented multiple visits by so-called "Time Lords" and "Time Ladies" with "TARDISes", including one during the 24th century B.C. when the Deluge occurred. One of them, called "the Saviour", came down unto Noah to warn him of the plan of another Time Lord, called "the Master", (aliases "the LORD", "Lordgod", "Jehovah") to flood the Earth. The Saviour lent Noah a TARDIS, which he installed into his ark and into which he sent all the animals and food. The abilities of a TARDIS to compress large interior spaces into a small volume, as well as to sequester mass, are well-documented. Thus, it is evident that Noah must have used a TARDIS which could easily accommodate the animals &c. while allowing his ark to remain seaworthy through all the tempests unto which God subjected the Earth. For the wickedness of mankind, this was excised from the Bible by its compilers. It is not necessary for the Bible to contain all truth in order for it to contain only truth.

The official finding of the Faithful Origins and Ontology League is that Noah employed a TARDIS installed on his ark for the purpose of preserving life during the Deluge.

Huh, this actually kind of makes sense from a magical Mormon God perspective. I kid, I kid, the whole Noah thing is bonkers.

User avatar
Just This Guy
Posts: 1117
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:30 pm
Location: Almost Heaven

Re: Noah had technology

Post by Just This Guy » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:25 pm

I find it funny how many people don't fully read the Noah Story and see just how improbable it is. Most people it was two of each animal , one male and one female. Nope! It is 7 of each clean beast. So your cattle, goats, donkeys, dear, and many of the other larger animals, you have over three times as many of them. Of course, this is even worse in that what constitutes a "clean" vs "unclean" would not be revealed for several hundred more years when Moses comes into the story.

Now we can start applying math to story story and it gets really laughable.

It says that it covered all the earth with 22 feet above the height mountain in 40 days. So that would be 22 feet above Mt. Everest that is 29, feet above sea level. That would mean you have 29 FEET PER HOUR of rain fall, or a half a foot a minute. No to mention the force that rain would put on the arc. That would be as much pressure as a military deep dive submarine experiences using high strength steel and other exotic alloys. You won't get that strength with gopher wood, whatever that is.

People have done calculations about how many animals would need to be carried, how much feed is needed,
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 4655
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Noah had technology

Post by Hagoth » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:43 am

And then there's the kangaroo/penguin problem.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 3267
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: Noah had technology

Post by moksha » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:56 am

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:43 am
And then there's the kangaroo/penguin problem.
Penguins can swim, but those kangaroos might have trouble unless they inflated their pouches with air.

Here is a challenge for any pocket calculator wizards: How many gallons of water (or metric units) would be required to raise the water level of a planet 24,000 miles in circumference a height of 29,048 feet or 8854 meters? Was the previous calculation correct in the amount of rainfall needed for this volume of water during the 960-hour rain duration? Bonus question: What tensile strength was needed by the materials used in the Ark to withstand this deluge? Double bonus question: Where did the water go afterward?

How did the various animal, insect, and plants get to the Ark and return to their original destination? Remember, in your answer you do not have to specify an exacting timeline for the reintroduction of these animals, insects, and plants to their native habitats, nor the exact number of zoo keepers, entomologists, botanists, or transport crew involved. Praise be to Noah for not dispatching polar bears to Antarctica.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
LSOF
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:16 pm
Location: Mare Tranquilitatis
Contact:

Re: Noah had technology

Post by LSOF » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:29 pm

The circumference of the Earth is very nearly 40 000 km. The Earth is very nearly spherical, so that gives a radius of 6 360 km, therefore a volume of 1.077 x 10^12 km^3. A sphere that would cover all the land on Earth would have a radius of 6 370 km, therefore a volume of 1.083 x 10^12 km^3. A Deluge would be comprised of filling the space between the smaller and larger spheres with water --- 6 x 10^9 km^3 of water. That is 6 x 10^18 m^3, or 6 x 10^21 L (or for those stuck in mediaeval times that must still use gallons, 1.58 x 10^21 gal).

1 L of water has a mass of approximately 1 kg. Therefore, 6 x 10^21 L of water would have a mass of 6 x 10^21 kg, or about one thousandth of the mass of the entire Earth. That water would exert a pressure of 10 km H2O, 968 atm, or 98.1 MPa (or for those stuck in mediaeval times that must still use those antiquated units, 14223 lb / in^2). Determining the effects of such colossal pressure on plant matter and soil is left as an exercise for the reader, as is determining where this water came from and whither it went.

N.B.: I was somewhat cavalier with significant digits here, but I generally rounded to three, except in the case of the volumes, where I rounded to four.
"I appreciate your flesh needs to martyr me." Parture

"There is no contradiction between faith and science --- true science." Dr Zaius

Pastor, Lunar Society of Friends; CEO, Faithful Origins and Ontology League

User avatar
Just This Guy
Posts: 1117
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:30 pm
Location: Almost Heaven

Re: Noah had technology

Post by Just This Guy » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:39 pm

I love math. The more you apply it to things like bible stories, the more they completely fall apart.

That being said, I once heard someone speculate that the flood was caused by a wormhole forming between earth and another planet (Kolob?). It started in another planet's ocean and in our atmosphere and drained water from there to here. Over time, it eventually traveled into our ocean and the atmosphere of the other planet to drain the water out. On one hand, it make more sense than most theories. On the other hand, it introduces all sores of new problems to the story.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests