Temple work for the dead

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Korihor
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Temple work for the dead

Post by Korihor » Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:42 pm

Why the hell are we doing temple work for the dead and expecting these souls to be saved?

In my other thread regarding mormon cred, I traced one of my lines all the way to 600 B.C. It was extremely messy and dates didn't match up well on several occasions. So does that line really go back to 600 B.C.? Impossible to know for sure, but there it is on family search.org.

(also, I have the most polyg ancestors so far!!!)

So if we do proxy temple ordinances, somehow God knows who 'Daughter of Simon' born about 540 A.D. is? But it's critical to do temple work in the millennium since "all the books in heaven" will be available. So why are we focusing on this now? There is no way proxy work can be done with any accuracy that far back, but God is just gonna fix everything?

It's maddening to think about it logically once you get out of the mindset of 'I'm saving them'. It's obviously busy work with no real benefit meant make you feel important and keep coming back for more.
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wtfluff
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Re: Temple work for the dead

Post by wtfluff » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:30 am

Korihor wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:42 pm
It's maddening to think about it logically once you get out of the mindset of 'I'm saving them'. It's obviously busy work with no real benefit meant make you feel important and keep coming back for more.
Oh, there's a benefit: A 10% benefit for the Corporation™.

Another "benefit" is that the believers can claim they're doing "service" when in all reality they're doing absolutely nothing useful for humanity.

But like you said Kish-Kori, apply a bit of logic to it, and it literally all falls apart and can be seen for the colossal waste of time and money that it is. With all the rumors of temple names being recycled, temple work is literally a hamster wheel for believers. They're literally performing the same, useless work over and over and over for the same names if the rumors are true. Even if the rumors aren't true, it's a statistical impossibility for the tiny number of active temple-goers to make any sort of dent in the number of "names" of all of humanity that haven't had the "privilege" of "hearing the gospel".

It's absolutely mind-blowing for me that the Corporation™ is able to convince so many retiree's that it's that the best thing they can do with their retirement is spend all of their time playing dress-up and performing creepy plagiarized cult rituals. That's COMPLETELY NORMAL? SERIOUSLY? And again, THEY PAY THE CORPORATION to do it!

I'd probably better stop. This is one of my triggers... :x
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el-asherah
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Re: Temple work for the dead

Post by el-asherah » Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:05 am

The whole idea of temple work for the dead is confusing to me. On a superficial level it appears to be a wonderful idea, but if you drill down just one level the whole idea falls apart into chaos.

Besides baptism for the dead, is there any scriptural basis for endowments/marriages/sealings for the dead? has there ever been a revelation received that endowments, marriages, sealings, etc.. needed to be performed for the dead? has it ever been approved by the common consent of the church? where is this revelation?

It appears to me that endowments/marriages/sealings for the dead is a morphed doctrine that gradually developed to force more temple attendance with no underlying revelation.

On a personal note, years ago, in my TBM days, I would attend the temple about once a month. On one visit I was given the name "Juan" circa 1400, the next month I was given the name "Juan" circa 1400, the next visit Juan circa "1500", the next visit "Juan" circa 1400 ....

"Juan" circa 1400 is not a person, it is an idea! There were probably millions of "Juans" living circa 1400-1500. Which Juan did this apply to? On a few times I did marriages for "Juan" to various women circa 1400. Which "Juan" did I marry to which women?

In my TBM days I was told that God would work it out. Well if God will work it out why am I doing it?

The very idea that God will work it out in the end is contrary to mormon doctrine. The D&C is very clear that what the brethren bind on earth is bound in heaven, there is NO scriptural basis anywhere in the D&C that states God will undo bindings/sealings, work things out, or nullify what the brethren have bound. The whole premise of binding on earth is that the priesthood leadership is responsible for working things out not God.

By doing marriages for the dead, the brethren are assuming the people actually want to be married (they may hate each other), or the records are correct, or we know which Juan we are talking about, or that marriages for the dead even have to be done. So in the millennium do the temples need to do divorces for the dead for all the times the church screwed up? Which to me appears to be the vast majority of the time

Total.Massive.Chaotic.Confusion.
I say these things in the name of Joshua and Awmen

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Corsair
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Re: Temple work for the dead

Post by Corsair » Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:43 am

Let me apply the most faithful, yet progressive explanation of temple worship:
Corsair, imitating a faithful Mormon, wrote:The work we do for the dead is actually designed to have more effect on the living than the dead. Yes, the ordinances of salvation are crucial to all of humanity. But the overwhelming majority of that work will get done in after Jesus returns and we have access to records that just are not available now. Plus while we are doing our best, we are still probably getting some of it wrong.

Temple worship is designed to be a sanctifying influence on the mortals doing the work. It turns us into more holy people who are focused on the great things of eternity and not just our temporal lives. It gives purpose and meaning to our daily labors especially into our twilight years. It builds our testimony of what God has in store for us and the kind of people we need to be if we want to enjoy eternal life with Heavenly Father. It doesn't matter if we are just repeating the same things over and over again. These ordinances keep us focused on living lives of holines and devotion to God.
As a counterpoint, once your testimony withdraws, temple service becomes a colossal waste of time. It lacks real introspection and it's an opportunity to browbeat good people into more devotion to a singular, mortal organization. Everything claimed by a TBM about the temple only makes sense if, and only if, the LDS church is absolutely and cosmically true. It can't just be "metaphorically true" or even a "powerful force for good". It certainly doesn't work if it just "makes you a better person through choosing to believe." I have to agree with Gordon Hinckley on this matter from April 2003:
Each of us has to face the matter — either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.
Temple service is final application of that principle. I prefer to spend my retirement years playing golf.

Korihor
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Re: Temple work for the dead

Post by Korihor » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:08 am

I just a little personal revelation - Jesus is my HomeBoy!

You know how you have a special handshake with your Bro? Thanks to the temple, we know the special handshake with Bro Jesus.
Reading can severely damage your ignorance.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Temple work for the dead

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:44 am

It makes perfect sense to me:

Image
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RubinHighlander
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Re: Temple work for the dead

Post by RubinHighlander » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:00 am

So...it could be worse. The plan in the latter days could still be animal sacrifice. So instead of just paying 10% for the VIP pass, you would also have to stop and buy a dove or lamb to take with you and deal with all the mess. I'm sure they'd have a super efficient way to do that, like renting your temple cloths right at the temple with a package deal to buy an sacrificial animal. So look on the bright side - no messy blood sacrifice, just the super cool Jesus bro handshakes and a halo from the funny hat.

Goats riding donkeys...seems a metaphor for the COB vs. TBMs.

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wtfluff
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Re: Temple work for the dead

Post by wtfluff » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:04 am

Corsair wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:43 am
I prefer to spend my retirement years playing golf.
After posting my previous diatribe in this thread, I had a few moments of introspection where I thought to myself: "You know, I spend a bit of time on a few passionate hobbies that many folks would think are a completely useless waste of time." (Golf isn't one of them, but you get my point...)

So... I guess if creepy plagiarized cult rituals are your passionate hobby, who am I to say that you shouldn't spend your retirement on the creepy cult ritual hamster wheel? Just don't humble-brag to me about how much "service" you're doing; And temple work still doesn't make any logical or rational sense; And I still think you're crazy. :mrgreen:


Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:44 am
It makes perfect sense to me:

Image
I think I could spend hours staring at that GIF... Giggling the whole time. Seriously. Maybe you found my retirement calling for me RR. :shock:
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Emower
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Re: Temple work for the dead

Post by Emower » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:37 am

107 billion people have lived on the earth. Who knows how many will live in the future, but say Jesus came today. Here is how long it would take to do everyone's work, if only one person started, and each person did the work for another the subsequent day.

Image
37 days.

This does assume that they can fit a billion or more people through the temple each day. But from D&C it sounds like the whole earth will be like a temple so I dont view that as a limiting factor. Now, keeping that many people awake and interested in doing a session for 37 straight days may be more of a challenge.
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MalcolmVillager
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Re: Temple work for the dead

Post by MalcolmVillager » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:52 am

My sister recently announced to the family that she has traced our family tree back to Jacob (yeah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob). I am not saying that it is impossible, nut so much of what I have seen as I go back in time is a bunch of guessing and claiming kings as lineage.

I prefer to trace back to Lucy and the other evolutionary parents we all certainly came from.

As far as work for the dead goes, what a bunch of BS. If that magical ceremony has any power or actual requirement for eternal salvation, God would be the @$$#0\€ the bible makes him to seem. Really, no blessings, progress, or procreation (i.e. sex) forever because some Mormon didn't do a ceremony?

If it is magical, then WTF are we all so stressed about worthiness for? My GGG grandkids can just do my work and get a testimony if my acceptance in heaven.

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Linked
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Re: Temple work for the dead

Post by Linked » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:04 pm

This was one of the things that would really get me mad right after the light turned on. What a colossal waste of time! If we are counting lost opportunity cost then temple work is a travesty. People could be doing any of millions of other things and spend their time better.

But, it gives some people meaning they wouldn't otherwise have, and some people find some joy or something. Right? But it's still BS and super dumb.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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LostMormon
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Re: Temple work for the dead

Post by LostMormon » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:43 pm

I think God is going to be pretty busy in the millennium fixing everyones screw ups.

what about all those people that fall asleep during the ceremony, (which from my observations, the last time I went, is probably the majority). Does it still count? I always hear the stories of how a person will hear a mysterious voice in the temple telling them to wake up, because this is important stuff, so I would assume those unfortunate souls that are having someone unworthy of hearing such a voice and snoozing through the whole thing would need a re-do.

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LostMormon
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Re: Temple work for the dead

Post by LostMormon » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:50 pm

el-asherah wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:05 am
The whole idea of temple work for the dead is confusing to me. On a superficial level it appears to be a wonderful idea, but if you drill down just one level the whole idea falls apart into chaos.

Besides baptism for the dead, is there any scriptural basis for endowments/marriages/sealings for the dead? has there ever been a revelation received that endowments, marriages, sealings, etc.. needed to be performed for the dead? has it ever been approved by the common consent of the church? where is this revelation?

It appears to me that endowments/marriages/sealings for the dead is a morphed doctrine that gradually developed to force more temple attendance with no underlying revelation.

On a personal note, years ago, in my TBM days, I would attend the temple about once a month. On one visit I was given the name "Juan" circa 1400, the next month I was given the name "Juan" circa 1400, the next visit Juan circa "1500", the next visit "Juan" circa 1400 ....

"Juan" circa 1400 is not a person, it is an idea! There were probably millions of "Juans" living circa 1400-1500. Which Juan did this apply to? On a few times I did marriages for "Juan" to various women circa 1400. Which "Juan" did I marry to which women?

In my TBM days I was told that God would work it out. Well if God will work it out why am I doing it?

The very idea that God will work it out in the end is contrary to mormon doctrine. The D&C is very clear that what the brethren bind on earth is bound in heaven, there is NO scriptural basis anywhere in the D&C that states God will undo bindings/sealings, work things out, or nullify what the brethren have bound. The whole premise of binding on earth is that the priesthood leadership is responsible for working things out not God.

By doing marriages for the dead, the brethren are assuming the people actually want to be married (they may hate each other), or the records are correct, or we know which Juan we are talking about, or that marriages for the dead even have to be done. So in the millennium do the temples need to do divorces for the dead for all the times the church screwed up? Which to me appears to be the vast majority of the time

Total.Massive.Chaotic.Confusion.
If you think it's confusing now, just wait until we all get our "new names".

Heck, we know those are pretty much all the same.

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Random
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Re: Temple work for the dead

Post by Random » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:37 pm

Korihor wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:42 pm
Why the hell are we doing temple work for the dead and expecting these souls to be saved?
Well, if a person steps back, looks at facts dispassionately and without the spin of honoring disobedient ancestors, D&C 124 says very plainly that if they finished the Nauvoo temple, God would come to that house and he would protect them. If they did not finish it, they would be "moved out of [their] place" and their baptisms for the dead would be rejected. Well, the temple was not completed. "Considering it complete" after many of the people had gotten kicked out by mobs doesn't really count, imo. If they were forced out of their place(s), it goes to follow that the baptisms for the dead have also been rejected. That's stepping back and looking objectively at the history in connection with the blessings/cursings promised.
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Re: Temple work for the dead

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:27 am

Family history on familysearch.org is largely based on fantasy and built on people zealously attempting to save ancestors who aren't even related to them.

I could give several examples of the shoddy work done linking generations incorrectly but it would out me.

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Nonny
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Re: Temple work for the dead

Post by Nonny » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:27 pm

LostMormon wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:43 pm
I think God is going to be pretty busy in the millennium fixing everyones screw ups.
Ain't that the truth!
The whole idea of doing ordinances for someone who is dead is ridiculous. As if God requIres, or is obliged to honor, rote ceremonies performed with earthly water and secret handshakes.

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1smartdodog
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Re: Temple work for the dead

Post by 1smartdodog » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:06 am

I agree it is a colossal waste of time, but what really bugs me is how everyone goes on about how wonderful the temple ceremony is and how they learn so much each time. BS I say. It is boring and repetitive. Elevating a temple session to some kind of cosmic significance is rather dishonest I think. It is a rather stone be age ceremony with little value to modern people's.
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LostMormon
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Re: Temple work for the dead

Post by LostMormon » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:39 am

1smartdodog wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:06 am
I agree it is a colossal waste of time, but what really bugs me is how everyone goes on about how wonderful the temple ceremony is and how they learn so much each time. BS I say. It is boring and repetitive. Elevating a temple session to some kind of cosmic significance is rather dishonest I think. It is a rather stone be age ceremony with little value to modern people's.
Next time, you should raise your hand and ask them exactly what new thing they learned the last time they went.

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wtfluff
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Re: Temple work for the dead

Post by wtfluff » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:05 am

LostMormon wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:39 am
1smartdodog wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:06 am
I agree it is a colossal waste of time, but what really bugs me is how everyone goes on about how wonderful the temple ceremony is and how they learn so much each time. BS I say. It is boring and repetitive. Elevating a temple session to some kind of cosmic significance is rather dishonest I think. It is a rather stone be age ceremony with little value to modern people's.
Next time, you should raise your hand and ask them exactly what new thing they learned the last time they went.
Queue typical mormon pablum: "It's too sacred to talk about." Which actually means: I'm following Elder Holland's example, and just making krap up...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Hagoth
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Re: Temple work for the dead

Post by Hagoth » Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:10 pm

The punchline of the Nauvoo Polygamy essay is that it was all really just about joining families together in the eternities (and definitely NOT about sex), and that God would sort everything out in the end.

If that's the case, and considering the difficulties explained in the OP, there is no reason to even do genealogy. Everyone going to the temple could do proxy work for "Some Guy," with a new name of Adam (or "Some Gal" and Eve) and it would all work out the same in the end. For that matter, Thomas Monson could walk into the temple one morning and do all of the work for "Some Guys" in one fell swoop and save everybody a lot of time.

As with almost everything else in the church, the purported purpose of temple work has little to do with its practical purpose. The overarching practical purpose of almost everything Mormons do is to increase devotion/indoctrination to ensure orthopraxy and keep the numbers of butts in pews high and the tithing revenue at maximum. The ultimate goal of the church is merely to keep the church as big and powerful as possible.
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