NDE and a high correlation with psychic abilities

[Rob4Hope]

I discovered something interesting. When people have NDE experiences, they often return with heightened awareness over things often considered "psychic". For example, many have increased empathy that really takes it to a whole new level--even being empathic to an uncanny degree. Many become "readers" (my word)--an ability to perceive thoughts. Some go off the freaking deep end, which is what I think Julie Rowe did...but that is an aside.

JS had this leg problem and some pretty nasty surgeries when he was little. Is there a chance he had a NDE as part of that, and came back with some type of psychic abilities that may have helped him along his weird pathway?

I'm just asking flat out of curiosity.

[Thoughtful]

Interesting.

I had two close encounters due to accidents at age 5 and 6 and have been "sensitive" since 8ish.

[RubinHighlander]

I'm still skeptical on the pseudo sciences, including super physic abilities. But I will say my DW has surprised me numerous times with her ability to perceive things or think of things before they happen a short time later. It's to the point it's beating the statistical odds of coincidence.

There are some studies out on empathy, where some of our species have much more of it naturally that others.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/th ... ce-empathy

I had not heard about the link to NDE. I am very suspicious of folks who come back claiming grandiose experiences, like Julie R. and several other TBM that wrote books about all kinds of visions and visits and seem to be making a living off of it. I don't doubt the correlated and documented NDE where people report seeing a light and loved ones, but I'm still a skeptic of the whole Heaven thing. It could be a thing or it could just be the last of the brain's electrical synapses firing off. I have some hope the conscious survives death in some form, but I'm open minded enough to be okay with there being nothing as well.

As far a JS, if he had an increase in empathy from and NDE, it appears to me that it did not overcome his narcissism, otherwise he would have had much more empathy for Emma while he was out finding more wives behind her back. Unless I'm wrong to mix empathy with honesty?

As far as JS psychic abilities, from what I've read he was not that successful at the treasure hunting, although there are arguments to suggest he was quite brilliant or better than average at remembering things and making things up as he stared into a hat and could dictate the BOM over long periods of time in a cohesive manner.

[Hagoth]

I'm still skeptical on the pseudo sciences, including super physic abilities.

As much as I would love to believe in such things I will have to curb my enthusiasm until people with putatuve psychic abilities begin producing consistently reliable results in double-blind experiments. Until that happens it remains in the realm of faith and confirmation bias, just like all of the Mormon stuff that I have worked so hard to set into critical focus.

[Rob4Hope]

I'm still skeptical on the pseudo sciences, including super physic abilities.

As much as I would love to believe in such things I will have to curb my enthusiasm until people with putatuve psychic abilities begin producing consistently reliable results in double-blind experiments. Until that happens it remains in the realm of faith and confirmation bias, just like all of the Mormon stuff that I have worked so hard to set into critical focus.

There is one specific argument that strongly nudges me toward there being consciousness outside of our body. That is the descriptions given by children of their surroundings and also other rooms with machinery in them while they were on the operating table clinically dead.

How can a child who is clinically dead get up off the table, walk into another room while clinically dead, and carefully look at the machinery on the way and notice the guages and what they are saying at that moment? This is a phenomina that has been recorded more than once, and to me is persuasive. Either its a hoax, bad research because somehow the info was contaminated or lied about, or something happened.

I think something happened. I won't go any further than that....I think some type of "psychic" thing happened.

With my two other friends experiences, shared with me in a way I am certain they were not lying, I am leaning toward things being there. But, if there is or isn't, doesn't make for any argument that JS was a prophet, or had some powers or something.

The comments about narcisistic tendencies above are about as valid as anything--JS treated Emma like sh!t. Shame on him....

[Hagoth]

There is one specific argument that strongly nudges me toward there being consciousness outside of our body.

I agree that hypotheses about consciousness not being entirely localized to the central nervous system are intriguing. I also love the suggestion that all life and consciousness is somehow interconnected, but I accept that this is speculation, not science. We can look at things like quantum entanglement to offer some promising ideas about how something like that might work. The problem is that all of this is highly speculative and these fringes of physics are, unfortunately, a perfect playground for quacks, woo mongers and cosmic gee-whizzers.

But I agree with you that when it comes to personal experiences we can't unilaterally wipe them off the board. When someone tells me of an amazing experience they have had I take them at their word but I realize that it was their experience and not mine, so I have no way to either confirm nor deny it. I know personally someone who quite well who claims to have talked to Jesus in an NDE. It was a very profound and life changing experience for her. I say good on 'em as long as they don't go into Julie Rowe mode and start demanding that everyone else needs to act in accordance to their personal experience. I also become extremely suspicious the moment they start selling media and merchandise, or garnering followers.

[Rob4Hope]

There is one specific argument that strongly nudges me toward there being consciousness outside of our body.

I agree that hypotheses about consciousness not being entirely localized to the central nervous system are intriguing. I also love the suggestion that all life and consciousness is somehow interconnected, but I accept that this is speculation, not science. We can look at things like quantum entanglement to offer some promising ideas about how something like that might work. The problem is that all of this is highly speculative and these fringes of physics are, unfortunately, a perfect playground for quacks, woo mongers and cosmic gee-whizzers.

But I agree with you that when it comes to personal experiences we can't unilaterally wipe them off the board. When someone tells me of an amazing experience they have had I take them at their word but I realize that it was their experience and not mine, so I have no way to either confirm nor deny it. I know personally someone who quite well who claims to have talked to Jesus in an NDE. It was a very profound and life changing experience for her. I say good on 'em as long as they don't go into Julie Rowe mode and start demanding that everyone else needs to act in accordance to their personal experience. I also become extremely suspicious the moment they start selling media and merchandise, or garnering followers.

I personally hope there is a benevolent God...and I indict myself by saying that "believe bias" (or confirmation bias as it was asked in another place) does influence me. I am trying to be cautious by saying " I don't know".

This much I personally conclude: I don't think all of the stories of children who somehow, at time of clinical death, can be explained away by psychological means. I can't say that they are somehow leaving their body, or there is a soul. I can say something that currently defies clear description is happening...BUT IT IS HAPPENING.

Are these kids gaining some type of ESP? Are their brains capable of seeing things through the eyes of someone else? Its all speculation, but the exciting thing is this is the beginning of the scientific method: 1) Something we don't understand is happening. 2) Theorize what that is. 3) prove or disprove it.

To me, its an exciting area of thought and research...cuz whatever is going on, it is certainly beyond normal experience.

[1smartdodog]

I don't discount anything but I am sketical of everything. In this case even if someone is physic so what. No person claiming extra powers ever really did anything. Maybe once in awhile someone claims to solve a crime or something but again so what.

It seems if there are extra powers available to some they could do something that mattered. Never heard of some one coming up with a cure for anything that works, or solving real problems.

When someone levitates a sinking ship or reads minds accurately I am skeptical

May the force be with you.

[moksha]

There is also an astoundingly high correlation between those have schizophrenia and the reported incidence of visions and hearing voices from the beyond.

[Hagoth]

There is also an astoundingly high correlation between those have schizophrenia and the reported incidence of visions and hearing voices from the beyond.

[LaMachina]

As far as consciousness continuing beyond the physical parameters of our brain you may find the following interesting:

A number of years ago I was really intrigued to hear the results of a very simple study done by a Dr. Sam Parnia. Project images in areas impossible to observe except from a position floating above your body and see what people experiencing NDEs had to say. It seems, unfortunately, that the results are not encouraging for the claim that consciousness exists outside our brain.
Steve Novella on AWARE study

I also read the book 'My stroke of insight' a number of years ago. It is very interesting how this neuroscientist describes the effects of massive trauma on her brain and and how it changed her perceptions. Her experience seems to suggest that the way we literally see the world (from directly above our noses and from 'within' our bodies) is highly contingent on our brains operating properly. I recommend the book but she also gives a TED presentation on the subject here:
My Stroke of Insight

[Newme]

I'm still skeptical on the pseudo sciences, including super physic abilities.

As much as I would love to believe in such things I will have to curb my enthusiasm until people with putatuve psychic abilities begin producing consistently reliable results in double-blind experiments. Until that happens it remains in the realm of faith and confirmation bias, just like all of the Mormon stuff that I have worked so hard to set into critical focus.

I do believe that there are other dimensions - other types of conscious existence, but I can't state scientific proof. Still, who's to say that science includes all possible laws of this universe? I doubt there have been massive longitudinal studies, but there have been reports of confirmed distant events in NDE... people witness things that are confirmed by others that happened far from the person's body. And I know of people accurately predicting pretty specifically significant things.

Based on personal experience, I realize the power of conscious focus - just by what I concentrate on can change me physiologically. I don't pretend to understand Metaphysics - but it does seem that those who do understand it have proven that just by looking at things, there are changes subatomically.

There is absolutely no doubt that belief is powerful. The FDA uses the placebo (belief) effect as the 1st test for medication effectiveness. "Functional illusions are priceless," as an old NOMie used to say. Of course reason isn't tossed out - that's the "functional" part. But really, we all regularly entertain illusions (subjective beliefs). Might has well have them work for us rather than against us.

[Give It Time]

I'm still skeptical on the pseudo sciences, including super physic abilities.

As much as I would love to believe in such things I will have to curb my enthusiasm until people with putatuve psychic abilities begin producing consistently reliable results in double-blind experiments. Until that happens it remains in the realm of faith and confirmation bias, just like all of the Mormon stuff that I have worked so hard to set into critical focus.

I do believe that there are other dimensions - other types of conscious existence, but I can't state scientific proof. Still, who's to say that science includes all possible laws of this universe? I doubt there have been massive longitudinal studies, but there have been reports of confirmed distant events in NDE... people witness things that are confirmed by others that happened far from the person's body. And I know of people accurately predicting pretty specifically significant things.

Based on personal experience, I realize the power of conscious focus - just by what I concentrate on can change me physiologically. I don't pretend to understand Metaphysics - but it does seem that those who do understand it have proven that just by looking at things, there are changes subatomically.

There is absolutely no doubt that belief is powerful. The FDA uses the placebo (belief) effect as the 1st test for medication effectiveness. "Functional illusions are priceless," as an old NOMie used to say. Of course reason isn't tossed out - that's the "functional" part. But really, we all regularly entertain illusions (subjective beliefs). Might has well have them work for us rather than against us.

Ladies and gentlemen, please make sure the restraining device is securely fastened as the rollercoaster is about to embark.

Hill 1-I agree with Newme. This is similar to my view.

Hill 2-I believe in what the Chinese call chi. I once read an explanation that a person saying they don't believe in chi, because they don't sense it with their senses is a lot like a fish saying they don't believe in water. In order for the fish to understand that there is water, they need to die or have a near death experience. If said fish survives, it can be more aware of how things are flowing in the water. Perhaps the fish isn't 100% accurate, because the fish is inside the water and doesn't have the objectivity of seeing the whole body of water.

Hill 3-I really love science and its search for truth, but I don't think science has discovered everything and I believe the movement and understanding of things at a subatomic level will continue to grow.

Hill 4-the comment up thread about schizophrenia I believe is also true. There's a whole lot about the brain and its workings we have yet to understand. Who's to say a schizophrenic doesn't have an understanding of more of the ocean than most? Or other oceans as well as it's own?

Hill 5-I believe that both the faithful and the skeptical view are important in expanding our knowledge in this area. The faithful view keeps us exploring and the skeptical view keeps us honest. Yin and yang. Both are necessary.

Thank for riding the rollercoaster. Hope you enjoyed the ride.

[EternityIsNow]

There are a handful of profound NDE experiences that strongly suggest there is something going with the NDE that is beyond our current scientific understanding of how the universe works. Confirmed observations while outside the body that were far beyond the reach of the experiencer and could be validated. And some NDEers claim to have some psychic abilities.

I had an NDE when I was very sick, some years ago, and I did become more sensitive to subtle things after that. Don't know if that is an adaptive post-trauma neurological response, or just me learning to pay attention to a subtle brain function, or something more etherial. But it is pretty amazing, I seem to be able to sense some things are happening before they are known to the public, but only in a very abstract way, I don't always connect the dots. It is as if I am able to sense a kind of flowing stream of greater consciousnesses, but without adequate insight to make precise predictions. I usually call this a kind of synchronicity sense, based on Karl Jung's writings (an early psychologist who had a profound NDE and also studied this phenomenon).

For example, a few days ago, I sensed something powerful happening related to leaving Mormonism. At first I thought it was me, but nothing is changing in my life so I did not know what it meant. I told one of my children I sensed something and wondered if I was subconsciously wanting to make a change, but really there is nothing for me to do, I am totally out, not resigned but that is not a good idea since I am disabled and dependent on TBMs. So what was going on? Literally within a few hours of these senses, the church announced they had excommunicated a GA/70. And there was a flurry of comments, thoughts, a shift in energy in the post-Mo/NOM community. And that was it, what I had been sensing. As the issue died down and everyone moved on after learning this was a private matter not related to apostasy, the feeling I had completely left me. I did not recognize at the time that my sense of something important related to leaving Mormonism and the excommunication were correlated, that hit me the next day, when I wondered why this sensation was gone.

This happens regularly, always when something major is happening but not yet known. And I tell people around me, they can verify this goes on. Again and again. Since my NDE. Sometimes it gets annoying. And there is no mandate to do anything, I suppose I could come up with some story and create a cult around these 'prophetic' senses, but there is really nothing here, I would be making it all up. The real phenomenon is just sensing 'what is'. There is no intelligence behind the phenomenon that I can identify, just an awareness that there are pending shifts in human thoughts and events. And I don't think I actually sense the future, these senses are always about what is already happening but not yet well known. If I were to classify this in psychic terms, I would call it a kind of group telepathy, where I can sense shifts in thinking of certain groups I am tuned in to.

Did Joseph Smith have these kinds of gifts? I seriously doubt it, although I do believe he knew about NDEs, but he would have called them visions, like everyone did back then. I think JS mined the experiences and writings of others and recombined them in new ways, and that was his talent. As for JS's claims of visionary experiences, some were probably made-up, and others were probably drug- or alcohol-induced. Having studied NDE experiences in some depth, I don't see the character development and maturity in JS that one usually sees in post-NDE experiencers.

[dogbite]

So what numbers actually constitute high correlation? The claim is easy to make but I'd like to see the actual numbers and reports that this claim is based upon.

[Rob4Hope]

So what numbers actually constitute high correlation? The claim is easy to make but I'd like to see the actual numbers and reports that this claim is based upon.

I don't have numbers on this....I'm really at the beginning of looking at this, and I am (possibly in error, which I can admit to if it exists) pulling that "conclusion" from multiple NDE sites that come across, at least to me, as a little more sophisticated than a fly-by-night outfit.

This one: --> http://iands.org/home.html
And this one: --> http://www.nderf.org/

Both of these sites mention in their summary research that one of the common characteristics, beside the "white light" type of thing (and several others), is an enhanced sense of perception crossing into what would be called psychic.

The post above--sensing things that are not widely known but are happening--is a good example. I have 2 NDE friends who have abilities that are uncanny IMHO.

Anyway, that is honestly what I got. I don't have reasons to either believe or disbelieve at this point....I'm in the big middle place of "I don't know". But I am intrigued.

[Rob4Hope]

Having studied NDE experiences in some depth, I don't see the character development and maturity in JS that one usually sees in post-NDE experiencers.

OH,...this jumped off the page at me!

You are soooooo right on this: NDE people have a common characteristic of a very definite change to a more loving, kind and thoughtful lifestyle AFTER the NDE. It often weirds people out around them, and can cause no small family problems either,...but it exists.

After JS had his leg surgery, he didn't become more kind and caring fro the record--he still engaged in treasure digging, and he was either totally convinced he could do it, or he lied about it. Either way, where are the treasures?

After reading Rough Stone Rolling, I got the distinct impression during the Kirtland era right before the church left and went to Far West, JS was a mean SOB to be around: he was depressed so to speak, and if you crossed him, you got in trouble fast. That is the impression left with me from Bushman in that book.

That does NOT sound like a NDE survivor to me--where is the patience, the kindness, the generosity?

Good point EternityIsNow.