NOM

Spent the last couple of days with a long-time friend. He's a lifelong Mormon, has never smoked, drank, all the no nos- he's stayed away from that. Pays tithing, has had plenty of callings. Super active guy his entire life.

He never cheated on his wife, who he'd married in the temple over twenty five years ago. The subject gives the rest away- she walked out of the door of their house, their one of two children still at home, and filed for a divorce. Her grounds- she says she married my friend because she thought that he was a good Mormon and lived his religion- but after 25 years, she has decided he just does not measure up to her standards and she does not love him any more.

Another teensie weensie tit-bit.....she also inherited a large sum of money when her parents died. Hmmm. She now has her own apartment, which she furnished with new furniture, any everything else. Left everything, and bought new. Also bought a new car.

She broke my friend's heart. He begged her to not go on with the divorce, but she said it was best for both of them. Then to really get the message across, she wrote him a long letter telling him how she never ever loved him, what a jerk he was, because he didn't treat her family the way she thought he ought to, and so on and so forth. The divorce is now final. Maybe she was right. Maybe it is the best for both of them.

She says she has never been happier. She is in a new ward and loves life. How can this be? Is this ethical? Moral? Benevolent? True? Is this doing good to everyone- including your own spouse? I know, you think there is an underlying reason like he beat her or the like. Notta. Your thoughts? Sure they had their squabbles, even arguments, but they always made up. Not this time....

Sounds like she only stayed because she had no other path to support herself.

I think her staying was also unethical as was how she left. The leaving was probably ethical in my view, but not how she did so. Additionally her post departure behavior is poor and vindictive.

The whole relationship manipulation is the saddest to me.

Having gone through a somewhat similar experience some 25 years ago, I know your friend must be really hurting. My experience taught me that we all will make up a realities to suit ourselves, and that the person we lie to most often is ourselves. Your friends ex is most likely deceiving herself more than she ever deceived him. I hope he has the support and love from others to help him in this trying time.

Did he go through a faith crisis or is he still active?

Sounds like a topic for Holland to give at the women's conference: wives leaving their husbands.

I'm truly sorry for your friend to be blind-sided like that. It's not not cool at all.

A friend of ours experienced something similar a few months ago. While he and his wife were spending the weekend at their cabin, she was having her son pack up their (her & her son's) belongings to move out. His son came home from work and saw all the boxes and called his Dad to find out what was going on. That was a long drive home.

I'm sorry for your friend. That's rough. I was blind-sided by a couple of frienemies when I was a teenager.

Brutal.

As I looked back on it, I remembered indications this was coming.

A couple of years later, these two frienemies were no longer friends and one of those girls called me up to apologise. I forgave her. The other frienemy went on to obscurity. She really was the brains behind the whole thing. I don't know what happened to her. I gave her wide berth. She eventually just dwindled.

You know that joke that goes, "when she says she's fine, watch out?" That. Women of your friend's vintage were conditioned a certain way. They're/We're conditioned to sweep a whole lot under the rug. What piles up is a load or resentment as big as the pile of emotional garbage under the rug. Eternal marriage doesn't necessarily mean he happy marriage.

I have a lot going on, today. So, I'll grab this moment to post. I noticed this thread is under Doctrinal Discussion, rather than support.

Two statements in your post indicate your friend doesn't do a great job of listening to his wife: her repeated appeals to treat her family better and her repeated appeals to be more TBM (however she defines that). First of all, men aren't conditioned to listen to women. Men who listen to and accommodate women are "whipped" and told to put "Bros before hos". It sends a tacit message that men don't need to listen to women when there are no leadership callings for women outside a traditional gendered realm.

My ex used to leave the room when a woman approached the pulpit to speak, because he figured what she had to say didn't apply to him. My mother once read the passage from Kahlil Gibran's, The Prophet, about the two trees growing side by side. Each equal and each helping each other. My father responded that she was his helpmeet. End of story. There isn't one single scripture advising a man to listen to a woman. The passage about righteous dominion contains no language advising the man to consider the possibility he may be wrong. The obedience covenant eternally silences a woman within a marriage. Eve never said a word after that covenant.

So very much of it was culture and upbringing. I have to leave, now. But that's my take on how doctrine played into your friend's divorce.

Okay, triple post.

Because it's me, I'm going to touch on the indicator(s) of abuse.

I only saw one really strong one and two weak ones.

Strong-his not treating his wife's family well, especially since she has repeatedly asked him to treat them better. This is precisely how abusers cut off their victims. They don't forbid their victims to associate with friends and family. They undermine their victim's relationships to the point that the relationship is no longer comfortable and the victim will give up the relationship on their own.

Weak 1-not listening to someone is demeaning. I'm not sure if the not listening was used as a means to have power over and control his wife. However, I still consider not listening bad enough to kill the love in the marriage. Imagine spending decades with someone who doesn't listen to you, thinks whatever you have to say, whatever contribution, whatever input is totally unnecessary.

Weak 2-society really needs to understand that massive amounts of damage can be done to a person without ever raising a hand to them. I'm not even going to launch into mental and emotional abuse. I'm going to keep it to physical. Denying someone necessary medical care is physical abuse. If that person suffers adverse effects because the person holding the insurance card refused to cooperate with doctor's instructions, drive the person needing care to the medical facility, or refused to provide or talked the victim out of necessary medication for the condition, that is physical abuse. Abuse is not in blows being landed, but in the attitude the abuser brings into the relationship. I can see why it was brought up. I get that society doesn't really give a crap about understanding abuse, but I can tell you some of the worst abusers know right where the legal lines are drawn and will do all the abuse possible up to that line and stop just short of it. It's actually more insidious, because it leaves the victim powerless to take action and no one understands or gives a crap if the victim didn't get hit.

Her grounds- she says she married my friend because she thought that he was a good Mormon and lived his religion- but after 25 years, she has decided he just does not measure up to her standards and she does not love him any more.

Wait a sec....... there is no evidence that he did any of the things of which you accused him. No evidence that he abused the family, refused to listen, treated them badly, forbid them to have medical care, or disrespected any of them. I don't know where that is coming from.

All we know is that she decided he did not measure up to her standards and does not love him any more. Then she wrote that she never loved him. That's all she said.

Do you know this guy?? I can't see what the evidence is for the accusations of abuse and that he denied them medical care, would not listen to them, would not give them the insurance card, etc. It's a rough situation, and we don't know what she really means. Maybe she means that he was never TBM enough for her? We just don't know.

Wonderment wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:38 pm

Refused to listen

I get that from this

Her grounds- she says she married my friend because she thought that he was a good Mormon and lived his religion- but after 25 years, she has decided he just does not measure up to her standards

However, I was assuming that she has spoken to him somewhere during those twenty-five years of marriage about ways she would like him to be a better member of the church. You're right. I shouldn't have made that assumption.


and this

because he didn't treat her family the way she thought he ought to

Again, I made another assumption. The OP never says that she has asked him to treat her family better. Again, I assumed they talked about these things.

treated them badly

I never said he treated anyone more than his wife badly. I never implied, at all, this extended beyond the couple.

forbid them to have medical care

I never said that. I was responding to this

I know, you think there is an underlying reason like he beat her or the like. Notta.

I was trying to explain that society assumes that the only type of abuse there is is battery and that is a dangerous assumption to make. I wasn't accusing. I don't see really enough evidence in the post to say the guy was abusive and I should have made that clear.

You're right. I don't know this guy.

Sorry to hear about your friend-- poor guy. Doesnt help, but hes not alone.
Stastically, women are much more likely to file for a divorce because they are unhappy which is what it sounds like she did.
Personally, I think its terrible and unethical for several reasons that actually play into why it happens.
I think this Regardless of who files, she is likely to the kids and he pays child support so if she's unhappy she doesn't lose them but he does. Being a single mom is hard, yes, but we have social and financial help for them, but most of society blames him for the divorce regardless of why.
It's also more acceptable to say "he's not the man I married-hes changed and I'm not attracted to him anymore. Marrying him was stash decision" than the reverse.
My soon to be ex sil sat my brother down last month and told him that while she loves him he's "too nice a guy and tries too hard to make (her) happy" they have to end it because she's just not happy and gave him her lawyers number. Their friends and some family.have rallied yo support her.
Compare That with when I found out about my.wifes affair and was told I needed to figure out what I did wrong and do everything to save the marriage.
It's wrong, but society is ok with her ending it because culture basically her happiness is what makes a marriage.

Historically we see the same attitude--BY said a women could replace her husband for a better man, no questions asked.

Then and now I guess husband can give her what she wants or get the heave ho..

2bizE wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:18 pm

Sounds like a topic for Holland to give at the women's conference: wives leaving their husbands.

I have heard that women initiate divorce far more frequently than men. It would be interesting if LDS leadership approached marriages from this point of view, especially in a women's conference.

I'm going to go for a little bit of disclosure. I have to confess that the way the wife left is what I was planning on doing. We don't know for sure, but going through my mother's affairs after her passing, it looked like she was planning to do the same.

Abandonment in this manner is something abuse victims resort to. They get themselves safe and then serve the perp with papers. However, this isn't the only reason abandonment happens. I know of a woman who picked up and left her husband and her kids, because she wanted a party lifestyle. People can abandon because the responsibility is all too much for them. However, the wife's manner of leaving did hit a nerve with me. In defending her, I was defending myself.

To clear up more of the misunderstanding and rudeness on my part. I generally don't suspect someone of being abusive unless I see three major red flags and even then I will hold off assessment until I have a few conversations with them. However, I can and do recognize abuse tactics and behavior. I do pay attention, because I've learned it's dangerous not to. As I stated in my post upthread, I only saw one. I also state a little further down, I don't think he's abusive, but I do think he's engaged in some run-of-the-mill jerky behavior (his wife does call him a "jerk"). However, it can definitely be implied that I considered him abusive in that post and for that I deeply apologize to the OP and his friend.

What brought me back, time and again, like a dog to its vomit, were my own issues. Domestic violence is a very important issue and a very important issue to me. I weary of the fact that the only thing that is considered abuse is battery when the whole situation is much more complex than that and it can be possible for a victim to be in danger without a blow ever being delivered. However, my post was clumsily composed and I see that as a strong indicator of just how tired of explaining, I am.

So, with that. My profound apologies to Gatorbait and his friend.