Why there is so much shame in Mormonism

[Hagoth]

These are not my thoughts, they come from my exmo son, but I think it's pretty interesting.

Mormonism stands out from other Christian sects in that it has no literal hell. In other religions if you do bad things you go to hell and you get literal punishment. So it's either eternal bliss or eternal punishment. In Evangelicalism you have the comfort of knowing that you are saved from hell by accepting Jesus as your personal in savior.

In Mormonism you are taught to aim for the highest degree of the highest kingdom, something that all but the most egotistical people secretly fear they can never achieve because of their shortcomings: sins of omission, dirty little secrets, etc. We are told that we will all go to a degree of heaven, in other words will will probably fall short, and we know that the Mormon hell is an eternity of guilt and shame, knowing that we could have had everything but we let ourselves and our families down in cosmically irreversible way. If only I had done 100% home teaching. If only I hadn't drank those iced teas. If only I had been a better example and kept all of my kids active in the church. If only I had fasted more often, read scriptures every day, never thought those wicked thoughts...

The result is that we have so many people who live in a secret daily hell of shame and self-condemnation because every day they are internalizing the fear of a projected eternity of endless shame and condemnation from themselves, from God and from others who will be eternally disappointed with them.

What do you think?

[Not Buying It]

Control. Like so many other things in the Church, it is about control. The Church cannot function without the members doing its crap all the time. Shame, guilt, and fear are pretty much the only tools the Church has to make the members do its crap. A few things in the Church are genuinely rewarding in and of themselves, but a lot of it is stuff no one in their right mind wants to do, so shame, guilt, and fear are applied as motivation.

[Thoughtful]

Control. Like so many other things in the Church, it is about control. The Church cannot function without the members doing its crap all the time. Shame, guilt, and fear are pretty much the only tools the Church has to make the members do its crap. A few things in the Church are genuinely rewarding in and of themselves, but a lot of it is stuff no one in their right mind wants to do, so shame, guilt, and fear are applied as motivation.

Not just the church controlling the members, but also members who are insecure trying to control each other, and their children, etc etc.

[Palerider]

I actually think guilt and shame have a place in our existence that is very useful. Without them we are really just sociopathic.

But the unhealthy guilt produced by perverted Mormon doctrines only stunts true spiritual growth and prevents a relationship with God that meets with His approval.

[Hagoth]

I actually think guilt and shame have a place in our existence that is very useful. Without them we are really just sociopathic.

But there can be a huge difference between guilt and shame. It you damage someone's property and sneak away without getting caught you can and should feel legitimate guilt, but you can alleviate that guilt by fessing up and repairing the damage. Guilt has value and can be transmuted from a negative feeling to a positive feeling by our actions.

Guilt is self-imposed, but shame is placed upon us by others. If you damaged someone's property and immediately made reparations but were then looked down upon by your community because it ever happened in the first place, that's shame. If a boy is not permitted to pass the sacrament because he is wearing a blue shirt, that's shame. He has done nothing wrong but he is publicly called out in front of others and made to feel like a lesser member of the community. When we are told that any back sliding will will erase our repentance and cause all of our former sins to return, that is shame. I have a home teacher who never visits with a lesson but he is always there to help us when we need him. He is constantly apologizing because he feels so shameful that he's not reporting satisfactory stats at the end of the month. He is one of the people who stares at the floor when the stake comes in to berate us for not delivering on the numbers. It doesn't matter that we feel like he is serving us much better than the guy who used to come every month and deliver a long, boring, preachy lesson but was never there to actually serve us. That is shame.


But what about my son's observations that the nature of the Mormon afterlife is a significant factor in creating a culture and mindset that is conducive to creating shame?

[oliver_denom]

I agree with Hagoth in that this is the way that shame operates, but as for the why, I think Not Buying it is correct.

The modern Mormon culture evolved from a theocracy, an entire generation that lived under Brigham Young and the church as the literal government and Kingdom of God. In those days, the church had hard power. In order to enforce their will they could take away life, limb, and property. But from the moment Utah accepted statehood, those powers have been gradually dissolving.

If the church evolved in an environment of totalitarian rule, then what takes the place of hard power for the purpose of maintaining the hierarchy? Well, it could have been anything, but it turned out to be guilt, shame, and thought control. When I say thought control, I'm referring to the lessons we learned from a young age to control our own thoughts by developing strategies to push out ideas contrary to church teachings. The ones I remember the most were to literally run away like Joseph from Potiphar's wife, and to do things like imagining thoughts like a highway and to look for exit signs, or to drown out sexual feelings by reading the scriptures and praying.

You can't maintain the type of control the LDS church enjoys over its people without some sort of threat either real or implied.

[Linked]

The result is that we have so many people who live in a secret daily hell of shame and self-condemnation because every day they are internalizing the fear of a projected eternity of endless shame and condemnation from themselves, from God and from others who will be eternally disappointed with them.

I've heard of making heaven a place on earth, I had never thought about it as avoiding making this life a living hell. Interesting distinction, I like it.

But what about my son's observations that the nature of the Mormon afterlife is a significant factor in creating a culture and mindset that is conducive to creating shame?

It's an interesting idea, but I'm having a difficult time seeing a strong influence of the afterlife doctrines on the mormon shame culture. The shame is so much about the here and now and our existing relationships. The afterlife doctrine might be used as an argument, but ultimately the shame culture is about controlling people in their mortal life with mortal life pressures.

[Rob4Hope]

The entire LDS culture is shame based, and I believe it is used for multiple purposes. When I read the original thread post, I remember reading Ann Eliza Webb's book, and how she mentioned the big revivalist thing that happened under BY. Everyone was self incriminating regarding sins--making sure to label themselves sinners, and pushing hard to repent and beg for mercy because of their "miserable" status before God. What was funny about the book at the time was BY was one of the conspicuous people who didn't do this--he had no sins to deal with; but he was certainly involved in fanning the flames of incriminating all those around him. It was quite a point Webb was making!

This shame culture thing is interwoven into the very fabric of doctrine in the church.

Of interest, I recall a talk given by John L. Lund when they created the additional quorums of the 70. He told a story of when Bruce McConkie came to discuss it, and there was a question/answer period. (If I'm botching the story or there is gross inaccuracy...I'm sorry. I'm pulling this from long ago memory). Anyway, in that Q/A, someone asked if there was any hope of making it to heaven. These were Stake Presidents and Bishops in the group. Bruce asked everyone to put their heads down and cover their eyes....then the question he asked was "How many of you, by raising your arm, believe you will make it to heaven." According to the story, Lund cheated and peaked around. He said that out of that whole room, he counted only a few hands--THE VAST MAJORITY OF BISHOPS AND STAKE PRESIDENTS IN THE ROOM DID NOT RAISE THEIR HANDS!

(this is interesting enough that I think I may want to see if I can find the exact reference and review the story for accuracy).

The point is that MOST (at that time at least--and if this group was indicative of a more general sample)---MOST leaders themselves don't believe they are going to heaven.

Is that shame?

PS. Your all GOING TO HELL!...I'm going to Hell, he is, she is...We're ALL going to HELL!....

OK...whatever. I'm gunna get a beer.

[Hagoth]

That's an amazing story, Rob. PLEASE try to find the reference!

If you're retelling is accurate it goes a long way toward supporting the general idea my son was proposing. Think about it, we spend so much time preaching about how our religion is the only one that will ensure an eternity with your family but most of us are bearing the burden that we are the weak link that will rob our family of those blessings? Holy shamefest, Batman!

[alas]

I actually think guilt and shame have a place in our existence that is very useful. Without them we are really just sociopathic.

But the unhealthy guilt produced by perverted Mormon doctrines only stunts true spiritual growth and prevents a relationship with God that meets with His approval.

In psychology, there is a differentiation between healthy guilt (which motivates better behavior) and unhealthy guilt (the kind where you give up because you can never be good enough) and healthy shame (the thing that keeps us within community standards) and unhealthy or toxic shame (the kind where you feel like God made a mistake when he made you).

Consider Clinton and how "shameless" he was with his sexual escapades. And notice how people say, "she has no shame" and "she has no pride" to describe someone who flaunts societal norms without seeming to care what other's think, or how she feels about herself.

The church's use of toxic shame and unhealthy guilt are the main reason I am no longer a practicing Mormon. When people are made to feel guilt over things they cannot control, like with the young men being guilted for normal sexual feelings, then guilt stops being a healthy way to keep behavior within bounds. Shame is toxic when it no longer has anything to do with what the person can control, and becomes about who they ARE, such as YW being shamed because they had a good figure, and no matter how they dressed, they could not quite hide the fact of their D cup. When it is about who you are, rather than how you behave, it becomes destructive rather than something that keeps behavior in line. The church's main problem with this is not that they USE shame and guilt to control the members, it is that they shame and guilt people for things beyond their control and for things that are normal. Living up to all church expectations is humanly impossible, so when people fall short, they feel guilt and shame over things and end up hating themselves for being a failure.

It isn't the control that is the problem, but the fact that the church makes people hate themselves with impossible standards, then teaches that "more church" is the way to fix the self hatred. No, less church is the only way to break out of the self hate.

[Fifi de la Vergne]

Your question has given me a lot of food for thought, Hagoth.

When I first encountered Mormonism as a young adult, the message of redemption, atonement and forgiveness were a huge part of what drew me in. I had always felt, as Alas said, like God had made a mistake when he made me. But the love-bombing, the radical acceptance and glow of being the “golden” baptism filled that awful hole. For a while.

I went on a mission just about a year after my baptism, and that set the stage for the next 30 years, when I felt slothful, fearful, guilty and came to know that I just wasn’t celestial material. I can’t say it’s because of the Mormon doctrine of the afterlife – for me it was more like even after I joined the church and had been taught that I had the potential for godhood within me, I still kept screwing up, so obviously I wasn’t going to make it. Oh, once in awhile there would be a conference talk or a quote that would try to reassure that the only that mattered was being on the right path and going in the right direction . . . I would try to take heart, but I never really believed it. I knew myself too well.

Now I’m curious: how many of us, in our believing days, thought we were going to the highest level of the celestial kingdom? Did anybody else not even want to? By the end of my time in the church, I had gotten to the point where I thought it sounded really, really boring, and that I might be happier somewhere else.

[Hagoth]

It isn't the control that is the problem, but the fact that the church makes people hate themselves with impossible standards, then teaches that "more church" is the way to fix the self hatred. No, less church is the only way to break out of the self hate.

[alas]

Your question has given me a lot of food for thought, Hagoth.

When I first encountered Mormonism as a young adult, the message of redemption, atonement and forgiveness were a huge part of what drew me in. I had always felt, as Alas said, like God had made a mistake when he made me. But the love-bombing, the radical acceptance and glow of being the “golden” baptism filled that awful hole. For a while.

I went on a mission just about a year after my baptism, and that set the stage for the next 30 years, when I felt slothful, fearful, guilty and came to know that I just wasn’t celestial material. I can’t say it’s because of the Mormon doctrine of the afterlife – for me it was more like even after I joined the church and had been taught that I had the potential for godhood within me, I still kept screwing up, so obviously I wasn’t going to make it. Oh, once in awhile there would be a conference talk or a quote that would try to reassure that the only that mattered was being on the right path and going in the right direction . . . I would try to take heart, but I never really believed it. I knew myself too well.

Now I’m curious: how many of us, in our believing days, thought we were going to the highest level of the celestial kingdom? Did anybody else not even want to? By the end of my time in the church, I had gotten to the point where I thought it sounded really, really boring, and that I might be happier somewhere else.

Seeing as I was raised in the church, the child of several polygamous unions, I was raised with the idea of the CK being polygamous and women's role was to make billions of spirit children, then abandon them for their male god to raise. Like our life here on earth, where we know our father god but not our mother goddess. We have no relationship to our mother goddess, and are forbidden to pray to her to try to establish a relationship. So, that would be my role in the CK, churn out baby spirits, then have no contact with them ever again, along with a million or so sister wives. It sounded more like hell than heaven, so not only did I feel like I could never be good enough, I really hated the idea and felt like there was something horribly wrong with me that heaven sounded like hell.

[blazerb]

In Mormonism you are taught to aim for the highest degree of the highest kingdom, something that all but the most egotistical people secretly fear they can never achieve because of their shortcomings: sins of omission, dirty little secrets, etc. We are told that we will all go to a degree of heaven, in other words will will probably fall short, and we know that the Mormon hell is an eternity of guilt and shame, knowing that we could have had everything but we let ourselves and our families down in cosmically irreversible way. If only I had done 100% home teaching. If only I hadn't drank those iced teas. If only I had been a better example and kept all of my kids active in the church. If only I had fasted more often, read scriptures every day, never thought those wicked thoughts...

The result is that we have so many people who live in a secret daily hell of shame and self-condemnation because every day they are internalizing the fear of a projected eternity of endless shame and condemnation from themselves, from God and from others who will be eternally disappointed with them.

What do you think?

This is one type of debilitating shame that the church imposes. Another type is the public shame imposed on someone forbidden from taking the sacrament, or administering the sacrament, or attending the temple. I have a child who has mentally left the church because of the shame of not being able to participate fully. Members of our ward would ask me about some pretty personal subjects trying to find out what was going on with this child. The lack of boundaries was horrific. I usually pointed out that the answers to their questions were none of my business as a father. I hoped to make them realize that the answers were way beyond their business as well. I have since apologized to this child for all the crap they dealt with.

I try to believe that the leaders are well-meaning, but they have to be aware of the damage this culture does to our young people. A mentally healthy child has enough problems at church. When a person has anxiety issues, church culture can be brutal.

[Palerider]

I actually think guilt and shame have a place in our existence that is very useful. Without them we are really just sociopathic.

But the unhealthy guilt produced by perverted Mormon doctrines only stunts true spiritual growth and prevents a relationship with God that meets with His approval.

In psychology, there is a differentiation between healthy guilt (which motivates better behavior) and unhealthy guilt (the kind where you give up because you can never be good enough) and healthy shame (the thing that keeps us within community standards) and unhealthy or toxic shame (the kind where you feel like God made a mistake when he made you).

Consider Clinton and how "shameless" he was with his sexual escapades. And notice how people say, "she has no shame" and "she has no pride" to describe someone who flaunts societal norms without seeming to care what other's think, or how she feels about herself.

The church's use of toxic shame and unhealthy guilt are the main reason I am no longer a practicing Mormon. When people are made to feel guilt over things they cannot control, like with the young men being guilted for normal sexual feelings, then guilt stops being a healthy way to keep behavior within bounds. Shame is toxic when it no longer has anything to do with what the person can control, and becomes about who they ARE, such as YW being shamed because they had a good figure, and no matter how they dressed, they could not quite hide the fact of their D cup. When it is about who you are, rather than how you behave, it becomes destructive rather than something that keeps behavior in line. The church's main problem with this is not that they USE shame and guilt to control the members, it is that they shame and guilt people for things beyond their control and for things that are normal. Living up to all church expectations is humanly impossible, so when people fall short, they feel guilt and shame over things and end up hating themselves for being a failure.

It isn't the control that is the problem, but the fact that the church makes people hate themselves with impossible standards, then teaches that "more church" is the way to fix the self hatred. No, less church is the only way to break out of the self hate.

Just got back from a long day and am glad to see that Alas has answered Hagoth's questions for me.

Thanks Alas, I see we are in agreement!

[Mad Jax]

In Evangelicalism you have the comfort of knowing that you are saved from hell by accepting Jesus as your personal in savior.

Yeah. "Comfort."

[moksha]

Thinking in terms of Erik Erickson's psychosocial development theory, perhaps shame and self-doubt help to curb autonomy in Mormons, keeping them in line.

[Rob4Hope]

That's an amazing story, Rob. PLEASE try to find the reference!

If you're retelling is accurate it goes a long way toward supporting the general idea my son was proposing. Think about it, we spend so much time preaching about how our religion is the only one that will ensure an eternity with your family but most of us are bearing the burden that we are the weak link that will rob our family of those blessings? Holy shamefest, Batman!

OK...I did misquote...but I found a direct reference. This experience is mentioned in an audio recording by Dr. John Lewis Lund in "The Myth we Call Perfection".....Covenant Communications Inc, 2003. I've since seen Dr. Lund has a bit of a racket going with stolen things in Israel.

I think later in the recording, Lund pulls Bruce McConkie's "Seven Deadly Heresies" talk...which is where I got confused.

Anyway...the quote is on there with A. Theodor Tuttle. The group of bishops were asked to put their heads down on the desk, and 2 questions were asked of "about 34 of us"....

Tuttle asked: "How many of you believe that most of these 34 bishops here will make it to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom?".....all of the hands went up.

Tuttle asked: "...and I want you to be honest...how many of you think you will personally make it to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom?"..."3 hands went up".

I pulled this directly off the recording (don't quote me on the direct quotes. I got it mostly right...but I had to rewind it a bunch to capture it...pretty close though).

That is the story as told. 34 bishops up in Washington area....meeting with A. Theodor Tuttle,...and this is what happened.

Shame is alive and well. We don't measure up in our own eyes....we are inferior inside the church....

THESE WERE BISHOPS!.......

[Hagoth]

Thank you Rob!

When Lund says "about 34 of us," does this mean he was present at the meeting, or is quoting someone else who was there?

[alas]

That's an amazing story, Rob. PLEASE try to find the reference!

If you're retelling is accurate it goes a long way toward supporting the general idea my son was proposing. Think about it, we spend so much time preaching about how our religion is the only one that will ensure an eternity with your family but most of us are bearing the burden that we are the weak link that will rob our family of those blessings? Holy shamefest, Batman!

OK...I did misquote...but I found a direct reference. This experience is mentioned in an audio recording by Dr. John Lewis Lund in "The Myth we Call Perfection".....Covenant Communications Inc, 2003. I've since seen Dr. Lund has a bit of a racket going with stolen things in Israel.

I think later in the recording, Lund pulls Bruce McConkie's "Seven Deadly Heresies" talk...which is where I got confused.

Anyway...the quote is on there with A. Theodor Tuttle. The group of bishops were asked to put their heads down on the desk, and 2 questions were asked of "about 34 of us"....

Tuttle asked: "How many of you believe that most of these 34 bishops here will make it to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom?".....all of the hands went up.

Tuttle asked: "...and I want you to be honest...how many of you think you will personally make it to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom?"..."3 hands went up".

I pulled this directly off the recording (don't quote me on the direct quotes. I got it mostly right...but I had to rewind it a bunch to capture it...pretty close though).

That is the story as told. 34 bishops up in Washington area....meeting with A. Theodor Tuttle,...and this is what happened.

Shame is alive and well. We don't measure up in our own eyes....we are inferior inside the church....

THESE WERE BISHOPS!.......

I remember a Sunday School class, where the teacher must have heard this, because he had us do it as a class. How many of you think that 90% of this class will make the CK? And how many of you think you will be part of that % that makes it? The results were about the same. Almost all members thought that most of the class was going, but almost nobody thought they were. The SS teacher worked for LDS SS as a social worker and so we talked about the perfectionism that had us all thinking we flunked out of the CK.