The Remnant

[2bizE]

I have read very little of Denver Snuffer and his work, but I do know there is a growing following.
They appear to be former TBMs who no longer believe the traditional narrative of the church (like many of us).
The story in the Salt lake Tribune seems to present a belief in some of the original teachings of JS and not all of the changes effected by BY.
Do any of you see people around you in this movement? Is this trying to become Mormonism without all the crap many people don't like?

http://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/20 ... qus_thread

[Anon70]

I read that too and it sounded so crazy! And then I was like-this is what all my non Mormon friends thought of me/Mormons.

I don't know if it's because my shelf is already broken or what but I couldn't do it. I haven't met anyone irl that's even heard of them let alone joined up.

[Corsair]

My brother-in-law is in a stake presidency and has been involved in at least one excommunication for an unrepentant and defiant Remnant Snufferite. He sees it as the expected falling away of "even the very elect" in the run up to the Return of Jesus. I'm not sure that he would distinguish between either conservative or progressive apostasy.

[Culper Jr.]

I ran into Rock Waterman's blog early on and started to (wanted to) believe along the Remnant line of thinking. Basically that Joseph was great, and that the church went off the rails with Brigham. I guess I wanted to salvage something from my years of service in the church. But there is just WAY too much evidence that Joseph made it up, so the flirtation with this ideology was brief. Never met anyone IRL that thinks this way, but I live waaaay outside of the areas where most of these fellowships are.

[asa]

There are several groups in Arizona that meet regularly . Virtually all participants are former or present members of the LDS church. In the group with which I am most familiar virtually all of the adult males are RMs as are a number of the women . There are present and former EQ Presidents ,Bishops , and High Councilmen who attend regularly. Those who have not been excommunicated often hold current TR and attend the temple periodically.It is effectively a cross section of the most active and committed members of a typical ward. There is a conference scheduled in Boise this weekend that probably 1000 or more people will travel from all around the country to attend including a dozen or so people from Arizona.

[Corsair]

There are several groups in Arizona that meet regularly . Virtually all participants are former or present members of the LDS church. In the group with which I am most familiar virtually all of the adult males are RMs as are a number of the women . There are present and former EQ Presidents ,Bishops , and High Councilmen who attend regularly. Those who have not been excommunicated often hold current TR and attend the temple periodically.It is effectively a cross section of the most active and committed members of a typical ward. There is a conference scheduled in Boise this weekend that probably 1000 or more people will travel from all around the country to attend including a dozen or so people from Arizona.

Emphasis added

The really amusing thing is that the description of this group matches the demographics of a lot of agnostic and atheist apostate groups I have met in my area. These people are the most devout, intelligent, stable families in their congregations where they are clearly not being fed the kind of philosophical and spiritual nourishment they are looking for. The Conservative Apostates are heading for The Remnant and the Progressive Apostates are heading to Starbucks. The main thing that both of these groups have in common is years of LDS leadership and a current temple recommend.

[Hagoth]

If these trends continue, what will be left? The LMG church: The Church of Jesus Christ of Lukewarm, Mediocre and Gullible.

All of this shows how miserably the modern church is failing to deliver a powerful, meaningful and credible experience.

[blazerb]

If these trends continue, what will be left? The LMG church: The Church of Jesus Christ of Lukewarm, Mediocre and Gullible.

All of this shows how miserably the modern church is failing to deliver a powerful, meaningful and credible experience.

Don't forget the Privileged. There will always be those who get the leadership callings who are rewarded for their efforts.

If I had been younger, I think the Remnant would have appealed to me. I longed for a closer relation with God, and I took the reports of visions seriously. I was certain that those who received their 2nd anointing saw Christ as part of the ceremony. As it is, I began to suspect that these extraordinary experiences were not coming from a god well before I learned about Snuffer.

I think this group is what you get when there are those who are all in, but find so little spiritual nourishment at church. Meetings are boring. Reports of miracles are well in the past. Apostles almost admit they can't distinguish between their own feelings and inspiration from God. (See https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/face-to- ... d?lang=eng, at time 22:50.) People want something better. As Corsair mentioned, that could be in the Remnant or at Starbucks.

[Lady_Macbeth]

The Conservative Apostates are heading for The Remnant and the Progressive Apostates are heading to Starbucks. The main thing that both of these groups have in common is years of LDS leadership and a current temple recommend.

I don't know which has been harder: Spouse being TBM or him moving more towards Remnant pov.

As I sit at Starbucks.

[Corsair]

The Conservative Apostates are heading for The Remnant and the Progressive Apostates are heading to Starbucks. The main thing that both of these groups have in common is years of LDS leadership and a current temple recommend.

I don't know which has been harder: Spouse being TBM or him moving more towards Remnant pov.

As I sit at Starbucks.

I offer my condolences. I can at least take comfort that my dear wife thinks that the Remnant are absolutely nuts that have taken Mormonism way too far. Your spouse headed towards a new level of devotion and belief that would confuse the average bishop, especially in contrast with the faith transition that you are experiencing. Good luck moving forward.

[Stig]

The Conservative Apostates are heading for The Remnant and the Progressive Apostates are heading to Starbucks. The main thing that both of these groups have in common is years of LDS leadership and a current temple recommend.

I don't know which has been harder: Spouse being TBM or him moving more towards Remnant pov.

As I sit at Starbucks.

I offer my condolences. I can at least take comfort that my dear wife thinks that the Remnant are absolutely nuts that have taken Mormonism way too far. Your spouse headed towards a new level of devotion and belief that would confuse the average bishop, especially in contrast with the faith transition that you are experiencing. Good luck moving forward.

Agreed. That sounds brutal.

[Lady_Macbeth]

It's a different kind of difficult that I don't know how to handle. The Remnant way of thinking has taken care of his biggest shelf items.

[Rob4Hope]

Yeh...it will never happen, but it sure would be nice if LDS-Leaks got a hold of, and posted some real membership numbers from the LDS Chuch: no watered down "counting those disciplined"...or those who had their names removed. But REAL numbers.

I read the church survives now on its BIC numbers....but this SHOULD be alarming, because it appears most of the youth leave anyway (but are counted of course--since we want to show a good face even though its a lie)...

sorry for the tangent.

[asa]

It's a different kind of difficult that I don't know how to handle. The Remnant way of thinking has taken care of his biggest shelf items.

This is not unusual. Denver Snuffer wrote the book " Passing the Heavenly Gift" in an attempt to help members struggling with historical and doctrinal issues to stay in the Church. He reports some substantial success. I personally know a number of people who were walking away but who changed their mind after reading his stuff. It is the height of irony that the book in part was the cause of his excommunication because the COB saw it as critical of the 15. He failed to recognize the rule that you don't criticize the brethren even if ( perhaps particularly if ) the criticism is true. Many of the issues some members struggle with are more easily dealt with once you realize the complete fallibility of the leadership ,the waning of spiritual gifts particularly from BY on, and the evolution of Mormonism from charismatic movement to ossified institution. Most Remnant followers would analogize the LDS Church to the refusal of the children of Israel to accept the higher law or the gradual spiritual entropy seen among the Nephites after 200 AD or the early Christian church after 125 -150 AD. It does often tend to create issues for couples when one is on board while the other either still subscribes to the current LDS narrative or has concluded they have little need for spirituality in their lives. Good luck to you. It is tough to deal with these issues.

[Hagoth]

I read the church survives now on its BIC numbers....but this SHOULD be alarming, because it appears most of the youth leave anyway (but are counted of course--since we want to show a good face even though its a lie)...

I have also read that they continue to count you after you are dead, up to age 110. Does anyone have a way of either verifying or debunking that claim? That would mean that my mother will still be a member of record for a couple more decades, even though she died almost 20 years ago.

[Hagoth]

It is the height of irony that the book in part was the cause of his excommunication because the COB saw it as critical of the 15. He failed to recognize the rule that you don't criticize the brethren even if ( perhaps particularly if ) the criticism is true.

I think all of this is absolutely fascinating, particularly that people like Elder Oaks actually make statements along these lines, as if they are so caught up in their own self-importance to not even aware of how revealing it is. I am also fascinated by the whole concept of a restoration church falling into apostasy and requiring restoration by those it considers apostates. I don't know about you but I think it would make for a damn good movie script.

Thank you for your insights, Asa. You don't have to answer this question but I'm wondering if you consider yourself an adherent to the Remnant movement, and if so, how far do you lean into it? I guess I'm too far out, but I can see how there could be a powerful appeal for someone who believes in Joseph Smith's invitation to actually experience spiritual/supernatural things.

[asa]

I suppose most would say I am in with both feet. However I am still involved with the Corporate church and hold teaching positions etc there. In that regard I am not unusual . I intend to continue serve where I can including HT , substituting in the GD class etc as long as I am permitted to do so. Many of the people with whom I associate feel similarly . A number have been excommunicated and so are unable to do so.

[Hagoth]

Please continue to touch bases with us, Asa. I think there will be some really interesting outcomes and I wish you all the best.

[Rebel]

Hey : this sounds fascinating !!! I just went to the SLTb article and read about it sounds like Denver Snuffer has something going there !! My feelings have always been that the Church has fallen into a state of Apostasy since the death of JS . Very interesting to say the least can't wait to hear what is canonized this weekend.
God Bless.

[Corsair]

Hey : this sounds fascinating !!! I just went to the SLTb article and read about it sounds like Denver Snuffer has something going there !! My feelings have always been that the Church has fallen into a state of Apostasy since the death of JS . Very interesting to say the least can't wait to hear what is canonized this weekend.
God Bless.

There are plenty of reports of Oaks and other apostles asking to not be recorded during stake conference meetings. I suppose it is their prerogative to make this request. However, I am confident that Oaks will have a few people recording the events in Idaho this weekend. The institutional LDS church already tried excommunication and denouncements of false prophets to keep people away from the Remnant movement. Now that they are out of ideas all they can do is react to whatever the Remnant comes up with. At least one fourm member on reddit/r/exmormon said that he would be at the Remnant conference this weekend and would let us know what happens.