Where does that leave us !!

[Rebel]

If the church is a complete Fraud (I believe it is) Almost all but proven to be so then in the eyes of God where does that leave all of us that stay in the church to support our spouse and or family ??? Are we the good guys/gals for supporting family members who refuse to see or are we idiots because we didn't leave despite family that tell us to stay and we know the truth ?????
I really don't know and not that anyone else does but opinions ??

Thanks.

[Give It Time]

Fools for love.

[Palerider]

We had been married about 30 years when I reached the conclusion that the church was phony.

I came clean with my feelings quite soon and it made for a couple of difficult years with my family and I told my wife I would continue to attend just so she wouldn't be a church widow. But she knew me well enough that there would be no return and that this was a matter of integrity. I'm pretty straight forward and I don't do well at living a lie....

She could see that I was miserable in church which I think created the question in her mind, "If Palerider feels this strongly about these church problems maybe I need to take a closer look at these issues." She did her own research without any help from me and thankfully reached the same conclusion.

I don't blame anyone for doing what they need to in order to keep their families together. I feel for those whose spouses trust near strangers (GA's) more than they trust the person they sleep next to every night.

I can't help but think that Heavenly Father must have untold empathy for those who suffer because of this situation that is really not their fault.

Church leadership are the ones who need to be most concerned about their standing with God.

The only concern I have for transitioning members is that they don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Give Heavenly Father the time to work with your spirit. The promise is that if you seek, you will find. Give it time.

[Mormorrisey]

I don't blame anyone for doing what they need to in order to keep their families together. I feel for those whose spouses trust near strangers (GA's) more than they trust the person they sleep next to every night.

I can't help but think that Heavenly Father must have untold empathy for those who suffer because of this situation that is really not their fault.

Church leadership are the ones who need to be most concerned about their standing with God.

I'm glad that you've had this experience with the missus, yet you also have compassion for those who haven't experienced that. But you're correct, it's the most bizarre thing I've experienced, that Sister M will blindly follow the corporation, yet question everything I say. Absolutely mind-numbing.

I thought I had reached a good point when I asked Sister M recently if she believed in a hierarchy of sin, that some things that people do are worse than other things. She agreed, and then I said, so, if JS married 14 year old girls behind his wife's back, is that worse than your own husband thinking the church just has problems? To her credit, she thought about it, but I still don't have an answer from her. Because there IS no answer to that. So, in other words, she'll give old Brother Joseph a break, yet consign her spouse to outer darkness for SIMPLY NOT TRUSTING AN ORGANIZATION THAT HAS CONSISTENTLY LIED TO HIM. I simply cannot understand her thought processes on this one, and I've frankly given up trying to hammer that point home; she'll simply parrot what's been told to her by the higher ups, that apostasy is the only crime left in the mormon playbook. I feel bad for her, and that's how I can deal with something that would otherwise cut pretty deep. I tell her all the time that the God she believes in is a petty God, and I don't have much use for him. That freaks her out more than anything; the conditioning is pretty thorough. If we could just cut this organization out of my marriage, I think we'd both be a lot happier. That's the sad thing.

[Rob4Hope]

For me...the fact the LDS church is a fraud FREAKS ME OUT....because the whole theology was so closely coupled with the idea of God in the first place, when the foundation of the first collapsed, it seriously damaged ANY belief left in God.

The logic goes like this:

Since God commanded JS to have sex with other men's wives, but condemns everyone else for that, God plays favorites, and the idea that "God is no respecter of persons" is conditional and has exceptions. God plays favorites.

Since the BoM lacks any credible archaeological evidence, it is allegorical, and the past 100+ years of GA statements otherwise were just them sharing some spiritual truth at some higher level--but not a clear concrete statement, even though God told them. So, understanding God or trusting anything God says is not possible anyway.

Since the commandments say "Thou shalt not kill"...but JS and BY both sent people out to kill others, that means there are multiple rules and GAs can pick and choose which ones they want to follow. So, the entire church is filled with lots of "do what I say and not what I do" sh!t. Jesus condemned hypocrites in the NT...but GAs aren't that, or else they would be false prophets. Since they are not, the things Jesus taught are contradictory, and you can't trust Jesus.

All of this CRAP can go on and on and on forever and drive you totally NUTS!

I'm struggling to believe in God,...and if there is even a God in the first place, I'm struggling to accept IT as anything other than a jerk. The link between God and LDS was so thick and fused, that as the first has collapsed, the second has been ripped but BAD.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

I'm pretty agnostic at this point, and I don't believe Mormons are going to hell, so I feel I can reasonably support my wife on her spiritual journey. I didn't always feel this way. If I still believed Mormonism was evil, I would not be able to do it. As it stands, I am working to make some healthy boundaries for myself while respecting my family's boundaries as well. I'm also trying to be more open with (compassionate, hopefully) criticism of the aspects of Mormonism that I believe to be harmful. I think this is good for me and for my loved ones. Hopefully God is OK with that.

[Hagoth]

I tell her all the time that the God she believes in is a petty God, and I don't have much use for him.

I prefer to take another tack and point out that the kind of God my wife believes in is quite different than the one taught by the LDS church. "Would a kind and loving God really (fill in the blank with something horrible) or would He (fill in the blank with something truly loving and caring).

I always say that, considering how much my own parents were willing to cut me some slack when I needed it, give me a second chance, and and help me through tough times - rather than condemning me, shaming me and piling more sorrow on me - a true loving Heavenly Father must be open-minded, understanding and generous beyond our wildest comprehension. Think of the best, most loving, most forgiving person you know. Shouldn't God be at least THAT good and THAT loving? After all, He didn't even give us the simple gift of letting us remember that he exists, or manifesting himself to us in any way. How much obedience would you expect from your kids if they had never seen you, heard your voice or received even a single birthday card from you?

[Mormorrisey]

I prefer to take another tack and point out that the kind of God my wife believes in is quite different than the one taught by the LDS church. "Would a kind and loving God really (fill in the blank with something horrible) or would He (fill in the blank with something truly loving and caring).

This does sound better, I do admit. However, and just in the way of some backstory, we have disagreed about the nature of God since we've been married. In fact, the kind of God taught by the LDS church is the EXACT God that my wife believes in. Therein lies the rub and the crux of our disagreements; she sees God as the stern father/Old Testament conditionally loving God favoured by the Bednar/Oaks/Christofferson faction. In fact, she thought Christofferson's talk was the best of last conference. Whereas I have always appreciated the Mister Rogers sweater-wearing merciful God that only Utchdorf seems to mention, and I'm getting even more enamoured of this image. So this has been a nearly three decade disagreement on the nature of God (and occasionally even as heated as the Brigham Young/Orson Pratt debates on the nature of God!) Even when I was fully "in," we would not see eye to eye on this.

[Newme]

If the church is a complete Fraud (I believe it is) Almost all but proven to be so then in the eyes of God where does that leave all of us that stay in the church to support our spouse and or family ??? Are we the good guys/gals for supporting family members who refuse to see or are we idiots because we didn't leave despite family that tell us to stay and we know the truth ?????

Good questions. From TBMs perspectives, we are the bad guys and they are the good guys. On this forum, it's reversed somewhat. I've realized that I have a bad habit of categorizing people in terms of extremes - member or nonmember, active or inactive... liberal or conservative. We are human beings - or human becomings. Many of us have changed so much in a short period - so who's to say we won't change again. Labels suck, IMO. Yet, they're used and they can hurt.

The church is not 100% completely fraud, but substantially yes some undeniable deception. It's like a person - if you were to ditch any person who you found with flaws, you'd be a hermit. It's also undeniable that the church can often (though not always) be a great sense of community for us and our families. If you were to deeply interview each member of the church - you'd find that they don't believe everything. Most just go along with it because it works for them overall.

Maybe we have a responsibility to help others see some of the dysfunctional deception as well as the healthy good aspects of the church. But we have to be really careful or else it can backfire and we're labeled "bad guy."

[Emower]

This does sound better, I do admit. However, and just in the way of some backstory, we have disagreed about the nature of God since we've been married. In fact, the kind of God taught by the LDS church is the EXACT God that my wife believes in. Therein lies the rub and the crux of our disagreements; she sees God as the stern father/Old Testament conditionally loving God favoured by the Bednar/Oaks/Christofferson faction. In fact, she thought Christofferson's talk was the best of last conference. Whereas I have always appreciated the Mister Rogers sweater-wearing merciful God that only Utchdorf seems to mention, and I'm getting even more enamoured of this image. So this has been a nearly three decade disagreement on the nature of God (and occasionally even as heated as the Brigham Young/Orson Pratt debates on the nature of God!) Even when I was fully "in," we would not see eye to eye on this.

This is something I am beginning to realize as I mature in my newfound faith/nonfaith. The issues that come up with mixed faith marriages are not really that different from just plain normal marriage issues. They are compounded and intensified by polarizing church teachings, but really the issues are all fairly similar. Just trying to learn how to disagree and get along is something that everyone struggles with all through life.