Near Death -- and contradictions in LDS Theology

[Rob4Hope]

I've been searching for alternate ways to believe in the benevolence of the universe, if there is a GOD, and what characteristics may or may not exist in that realm. I'm intrigued by NDEs because the research is growing; it is being given a fairly scientific approach as well. It intrigues me--particularly the NDERF studies, as well as what happened to Eban Alexander (which is the last book I just read). NDERF gives 9 arguments to the validity of the experiences, approached from a MD perspective, and is compelling in my mind. More study on my behalf is required, but I am hopeful.

What interests me is when I encounter things in these NDEs that directly counter LDS theology. Case in point--MOST of the accounts I've read are from non-LDS (endowed and sealed) people; however, those people are often met by angelic visitors, and in MOST cases, they are family members who have passed on prior. Those "family members" (often a parent or sibling--rarely a child that passed on) are there to provide comfort and love.

Question: How is it possible on the other side of the "veil" (a word MANY NDEs use to describe the 'spiritual realm') that non-sealed "family members" are visiting the NDE person? How is it possible that on the other side, familial relationships exist, considering the ordinances of sealing have not happened?

This is one of MANY little inconsistencies that come up in my research. Inconsistent with "LDS Theology". Doesn't D&C 132 say something about things being severed if they are not sealed on this side of the veil? So, how can a "family" exist over there at all?

I've just begun to seriously delve into this NDE area and am amazed there are actual journals where this stuff is getting some serious scrutiny. I HOPE (which is the reason for me looking) there is a GOD out there, and a benevolent one. Religion is not a pathway that works for me anymore. I'm looking for a science to intersect with something, perhaps still unexplained, that may bridge this gap. This NDE thing looks promising.

Like I said, however, what these people report counters LDS theology--which doesn't surprise me in the least. But its interesting.

I'm gunna occasionally add to this thread when I encounter things in NDE experiences that are contrary to LDS Theology. First one is this:

1. It appears from the NDE literature that family relationships continue after death and don't require LDS ordinances to make them continue. Many non-LDS NDE survivors who report out-of-body (OOB) events are met by deceased family members who identify themselves as a family member and provide guidance while the OOB is happening.

D&C 132: 7
And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

If this is the case, and these people are "dead"....how come they visit as family members?...problem here...

[dogbite]

https://lifehacker.com/what-it-feels-li ... 1798643965

NDEs are explainable with the understanding of modern medicine.

[deacon blues]

Could it be that Joseph got one wrong? That he really didn't hold the keys? Could it be that Love, and not temple ordinances, dictate who we choose to associate with in the hereafter.

I'm like you, I'm looking to science more than religion for the answers.

[1smartdodog]

I contend no one has ever come back from the dead. I mean really dead like stiff. Anything short of that could just be a hallucination

[The Beast]

NDEs fascinate me as well. The church has often had qualms with NDEs when what is reported doesn't align with church dogma even when the experiencer is, or becomes LDS. Google Betty Eadie and Boyd K Packer and you'll see what I mean. If you like NDE research, you may also enjoy the writings of Dr's. Michael Newton and Brian Weiss. Cheers.

[Rob4Hope]

https://lifehacker.com/what-it-feels-li ... 1798643965

NDEs are explainable with the understanding of modern medicine.

Nah...I don't buy it. Part of the reason is its not possible to "anecdotally" describe what is happening in other rooms, specifically with knowledge that is above and beyond ones capacity, unless being there. This is one of the strengths brought out by NDEs happening to children. There is a lot of interesting info on this one....lots.

There are several other areas that MANY medical doctors and other scientists debate. The biggest question is how can consciousness exist when someone is "brain dead"? The debate often presented is: they had something happen right before they went brain dead, and then when they came back, this crystlized into their NDE memory. This seems to be what this link is you presented.

This is one of the criticisms of NDEs. It doesn't answer other questions I have, but its interesting...

[Rob4Hope]

I contend no one has ever come back from the dead. I mean really dead like stiff. Anything short of that could just be a hallucination

I use to feel this way. Now I'm not so sure. I have a NDE in my family, and 2 CLOSE friends who had them. I've also had a close family friend go through drug induced hallucinations while drying off barbs. It was horrific.

After talking to them all, I do NOT believe the NDEs that happened to my friends are hallucinations or dreams: they were too lucid, organized, and EXTREMELY coherant and orderly. I've had some pretty freaky dreams in my life, and in every case I knew it was a dream when I came back. My friends are of the same mind--they know when they are dreaming, and they are absolutely sure these were not dreams. In one case, my friend was burned over 80% of her body. She has the scars to prove it. The other one drowned.

Anyway,...its fascinating stuff.

[Rob4Hope]

NDEs fascinate me as well. The church has often had qualms with NDEs when what is reported doesn't align with church dogma even when the experiencer is, or becomes LDS. Google Betty Eadie and Boyd K Packer and you'll see what I mean. If you like NDE research, you may also enjoy the writings of Dr's. Michael Newton and Brian Weiss. Cheers.

Oh yeh...Betty Eadie. I haven't read any of her stuff....but I'm with you. I recall some of the stuff said about her book....

[Rob4Hope]

Could it be that Joseph got one wrong? That he really didn't hold the keys? Could it be that Love, and not temple ordinances, dictate who we choose to associate with in the hereafter.

I'm like you, I'm looking to science more than religion for the answers.

One of the things I'm trying to weigh is whether the information I'm looking at is "scientific enough" (does that make sense)?

The NDERF site points out its impossible to do double-blind studies on NDEs---you can't kill someone a little to see if they have this freaky experience...not ethical and all that. So, a new way to ascertain the validity of the experience is needed, and to be frank, I get the impression there are some trying to do that: be science based, but looking for ways to "look at it" scientifically.

-------------------------------------
To no one in particular....

Everyone...I'm picking up some of the things you are laying down here. Are NDEs just hallucination? Are these people just undergoing a massive amount of neural death rattles right before they die...and these "memories" crystalize into a massive memory?

I'm kindof a little saddened that it seems my thread is getting killed by the "there is no such things as AFTER DEATH" arguments coming out.

Let me pose 2 questions. For those of you in the "know"....does everything happen that possibly can happen? Can something simultaneously be in all places at once?

The answer, from science, is YES!.....its part of quantum mechanics...and is theoretical but still being entertained. If every possibility happens and we live in a multi-universe where everything that can happen DOES happen (another part of quantum mechanics)...why is it impossible for consciousness to exist outside of the body?

Can anyone willingly proclaim, with confidence, they understand "consciousness" in this apparent multi-univrerse, and state unequivocally that consciousness exists ONLY inside the confines of a living brain?

If you can do that, its daring,...and I would want to know your definition of consciousness. Science grapples with this idea--science has, to my knowledge, NOT been able to define "consciousness" at this point.

Along comes NDEs, and one of the things they are saying is it appears "consciousness" can exist outside the body. Arguments about hallucinations being the foundation abound--but there are counter arguments about the lucidity of the memories, the uncharacteristic order and structure of the information gained, the consistencies (which also implies maybe something orderly happens--not just this is a common medical occurrence), the differences, etc. There are hundreds of THOUSANDS of these things happening folks. This is NOT an isolated event.

If science is so in the know about this stuff,...WHY are we having unanswered questions at this late date if this has been a "medical event ONLY" for the last 200 years?

Its my opinion that science is biased against anything they can't explain in a materialistic manner. And even at this late time, we have ideas like multi-universes coming out.

Nah...i'm keeping my options open. I want to look at both sides of this one and have a deep dive. I'm willing to let myself be open to the possibilities.

And one of the possibilities is this: IF NDES happen and are real,...with OOB experiences also being real, they can tell us something about the nature of existence. And, from my own inner feelings, I am intrinsically a social being. So, what of relationships and their implications as part of NDEs?

This is a fascinating topic. And I'm willing to explore it.

[asa]

Interesting topic. i may be more interested than most because my father had a NDE following a heart attack while he was in the best hospital in LA. The world famous heart surgeons told my mother that it was the most amazing thing they had ever seen . " He was dead and we could not revive him. Then after 10 minutes past we gave up. Another minute passed and suddenly his heart began to beat and he was back" . My father told us later of his experience in the spirit world and his visit with his own father who had passed only the year before. My father lived another 20 years after this experience and periodically would share this story with others. On the theological issue I will have to check later since I am at work but I think the sealing issue only becomes significant presently in LDS doctrine in connection with the final judgement not the allocation to parts of the spirit world. Good people go to paradise or some part thereof and the wicked go to hell. Look at D and C 138 v 11-21. The criteria is between those who had been faithful or good and those who haven't. Nothing is said anywhere in that Section about the necessity of sealing or its efficacy. Conversely Section 132 talks about the importance of sealing in connection with ones status during and after the resurrection v 7,13,19 and 20, Different periods ,different results.

[Palerider]

Personally, I believe in NDEs because of a number of family experiences that I won't go into now. So I think you're on good standing.

Regarding Mormon doctrine I would say most scriptorians (I know that really isn't a word) would point to Alma 40 and tell you as McConkie has stated that death brings on only a "partial judgment".

So "righteous" friends and family could continue to associate in the spirit world until the resurrection when a final judgement would be given and everyone would head off to their own kingdom.

The problem would be that Joseph Fielding Smith taught that only baptized members would be in Paradise...a thought that still confuses the repentant thief on the cross whenever JFS asks, "What are you doing here?" and the thief replies, "I could ask you the same thing..."

ETA: Ah, I see that Asa has partially address this issue.

[asa]

A quick response. I knew Joseph Fielding Smith and talked with him an multiple occasions . He autographed several of my books . I even ,as a BYU freshman , called him up on his home number ,woke him up , and spent 1/2 hour discussing doctrinal questions with him . Great guy, very approachable . But wrong on theological and historical questions more often that he was right. Look at Doctrines of Salvation and see how he explained that Joseph never used the seer stone at any time in the translation of the B of M. He is also the guy who intentionally hid the 1832 version of the First Vision for many decades and only took it out of his private safe when he was about to be exposed. I would rather put my faith in doctrinal matters with you Pale rider than him. As you might guess on this point I think he is clearly wrong.

[Rob4Hope]

OK...I got a #2 that will be something I look into, but don't know a lot now.

It appears from the literature on NDEs there is a branch of research regarding reincarnation. I don't know a lot about this one (like I said above, I'm at a beginning. I've read maybe about 6 books is all, so I am really just beginning to expand the search), but it looks VERY interesting.

I read somewhere that one of the early RS Presidents or big-shot sisters in LDS history believed in reincarnation? Was it Eliza R. Snow?

The idea intrigues me because it flies in the face of doctrines taught by guys like JFS, BM, and others. Reincarnation is a wild idea, and, according to a LOT of LDS theology, contradictory of the resurrection.

So,......

Who knows where this pathway may lead. This is an interesting quest. Learning as I go.....trying hard to suspend conclusions and judgements along the way.....

PS........

OK, I googled it. There is chatter out there. Don't know if its crap, but this is interesting. Might be worth a look...

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1 ... 48,quote=1

[Palerider]

Asa thanks for the vote of confidence.....I think? That's not saying much.

On the other hand it's nice to know that JFS was a kind man.

[redjay]

I've also read Eben Alexander's book, and think that NDEs are a sign of something beyond mortality, and reincarnation also floats my boat. There are problems, e.g. people going to hell - I see no rationale for a big burny place for bad people, but I think the implied message is more important, than the descriptive experience: there's more to this life than, be born, eat, procreate and die.

[Rob4Hope]

OK...had a friend at work recommend a book by Dr. Mark Pederson ND called: "Near Death and the Afterlife -- Memories of my Out of Body Adventures".

Entertaining, but hokey. There was a discussion of hell and what he called "Chaldeans" and "Babylon" being on the other side. Over there, there is an economy established promoting possession and the experience of earthly desire where possible. You pay by service to the Chaldeans, and for those services, you are whisked off to places where likely possession opportunities can happen, providing whatever you desire. It could be as innocuous as hopping into someone's body to watch TV, graduating to sharing in sexual experience, etc. The most 'expensive' deals were struck over those who were seriously into drugs or alcohol, because in those cases, the living victim was compromised enough that the inhabiting spirit could actually control some of the choices and actions of the host.

I remember reading a book that I actually believe is more authentic--George Ritchie's NDE. He was criticised when he wrote that--but many consider his book the beginning of the NDE revolution where the idea was taken more seriously.

In Ritchie's book, he saw spirits inhabit drunk sailor's bodies and it basically freaked him outl He said they slid down inside the cocoon of light that seemed to crack open when the sailor lost consciousness from the alcohol. I think Ritchie was more on point with what he wrote--sounded more objective and less dreamy than this one.

A while ago I remember reading John Pontious book during his long death ordeal. It was so devotionally driven it was hard to finish!...the guy was oozing LDS faith--and blind faith at that! ONe of the things he said in his book was when guys are watching porn (he chose men for this example), there are spirits that congregate in the room, looking for an opportunity to slip into the host's body and experience the sexual arousal and release for themselves--basically reliving their "addiction" with their embodied host and using whatever means possible (if possession is such a means?) to satisfy their craving.

OK,...Pontious approach mirrors Ritchies,..but takes it to the next level. So now all of the sudden when someone looks at porn they are suddenly being possessed?

And Pederson's book takes it a step further--now such things are "economized" via a barter system built on servitude with "Chaldeans" who followed Lucifer (as Pederson says in the book)?

I can REALLY REALLY tell when I read these books if there is an agenda. Several things happen immediately: 1) the objectivity seems to vanish fast--they are preaching a cause; 2) the general air of scholarship goes out the window, introducing paradox to their very stories (and they sound more like stories--not recitations of real events); 3) they weave things in and out in ways that seem more like a dream or hallucination than something real.

The NDERF side of things says that one of the hallmarks of more verifiable (if there is such a thing) NDEs is HEIGHTENED AWARENESS--like being alert and aware of things, but on steroids. NDE reports have this consistency between them. Pederson's book lacked this quality as I read it. Furthermore, the "life review" was weird. Lots of it was weird.

I'm chalking this one up as a story. Made my friend happy I read it....but it sounds like a fable.

Even Pederson's wife thought he was hallucinating during some of his retelling.

PS. Oh, one thing he did report which was discussed on another thread was there were 2 men, clearly high up in the LDS faith by the way he reported it, who blessed him--and he came back into his body as a result of that. So, he was raised from the dead in this one to.