No Gay Cakes in Heaven

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moksha
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No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by moksha » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:19 pm

What do you think about the LDS Church filing briefs in favor of the Colorado baker refusing to make a wedding cake for a same-sex marriage? Or even amicus briefs in favor of making transgender kids use the bathroom of a sex they do not identify with?
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Jeffret
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Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by Jeffret » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:23 pm

Atrocious.

But totally expected.
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Thoughtful
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Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by Thoughtful » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:33 pm

moksha wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:19 pm
What do you think about the LDS Church filing briefs in favor of the Colorado baker refusing to make a wedding cake for a same-sex marriage? Or even amicus briefs in favor of making transgender kids use the bathroom of a sex they do not identify with?
No one I know in either psychology or education is worried about trans kids being in any bathroom they want. I don't understand why on earth the church cares. Everyone should be able to pee.

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1smartdodog
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Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by 1smartdodog » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:44 am

The whole notion of any group trying to legislate through the courts is appalling to me. Go vote I say and stop trying to force your will on others from the bench. I also think business should be able to serve who they want. let them suffer the consequences of their decisions.

With all the real problems we continue to focus on stuff like this. Really cake discrimination? Life sucks sometimes and there are rude and stupid people out there. Just ignore them and go vote.
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Red Ryder
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Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:14 am

Thoughtful wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:33 pm
moksha wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:19 pm
What do you think about the LDS Church filing briefs in favor of the Colorado baker refusing to make a wedding cake for a same-sex marriage? Or even amicus briefs in favor of making transgender kids use the bathroom of a sex they do not identify with?
No one I know in either psychology or education is worried about trans kids being in any bathroom they want. I don't understand why on earth the church cares. Everyone should be able to pee.
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Hagoth
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Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by Hagoth » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:33 am

Wouldn't it be fascinating if some states in the Bible Belt started refusing to make cakes for Mormon (not-real-christian) weddings and not allowing Mormons to use their restrooms.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Corsair
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Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by Corsair » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:50 am

I think there is an economic solution that would make a lot of problems go away naturally. Some organization should make up a registry of bakers and caterers that will happily provide cakes and food for the gayest of weddings. They should also have another public registry of businesses that will not serve an LGBT wedding. Let some public exposure do the work. Surely some progressive business could capitalize on competitors who will not serve a clientele with money to spend.

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didyoumythme
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Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by didyoumythme » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:35 am

The church should stay out of these matters, but I do support business owners' right to conduct business how they see fit. They can choose to deny service to specific groups, but their profits and public perception will surely suffer. It is still their right nonetheless.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being honest, or cease being mistaken. - Anonymous

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Hagoth
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Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by Hagoth » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:06 pm

didyoumythme wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:35 am
The church should stay out of these matters, but I do support business owners' right to conduct business how they see fit. They can choose to deny service to specific groups, but their profits and public perception will surely suffer. It is still their right nonetheless.
Yeah, like that sign in diners: "we reserve the right to serve refuse to anyone."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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alas
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Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by alas » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:35 pm

If the cake is one decorated like any other wedding cake, then, no, I don't think the baker has a right to refuse to sell what he is in the business of selling to the PUBLIC. I see no difference between a bakers refusing to sell to a gay couple than I do a cafe refusing to seat a black person.

But if the gay couple is requesting special service or for the baker to engage in speach, then, yes the baker has the right to refuse. I draw the line at the baker being required to do something like write on the cake, "Congratulations, Steve and Brent! May your gay wedding be blessed by God." See, writing something beyond the names of the couple (and maybe even that) infringes on the bakers right to free speech.

But making this about freedom of religion Really bothers me because it opens up any kind of discrimination that one can claim is against his religion. It is just too broad and open. What if a racist claims interracial marriage is against his religion? What if a Baptise florist refused to sell flowers for a Mormon funeral because the Mormon is going to hell according to his religion? What if an atheist refused to sell a cake to a church's fund raising party, because the church raising money violates the atheist's beliefs? What if that baptist store owner refuses to sell a white dress to a Mormon 8 year old because he thinks Mormon baptism is an abomination?

If a business sells X to the public, then that business has no right to refuse to sell X to specific individuals. However if writing A specific message violates his religion, then he can sell the blankety blank cake and some squeeze frosting and let the customer write his own message.

I also think art like photography comes under free speech. Photographers for weddings can refuse a particular job for dozens of reasons already, but to tell the couple you disapprove of them even getting married is TACKY. A simple, "I am sorry, but I won't be able to make it, but I know another excellent photographer who might be available." I think a big part of the problem isn't just the refusal, but the insult that is tossed into the refusal.

Flowers, if he is just asked to sell flowers and he sells flowers t everyone else, then he is wrong to discriminate against a couple or event he disapproves of. But if he is asked to make up a specialized bouquet, with a message written on it, then again, it is his free speech being violated, not his religion. After all, he is not being forced to get married to a same gender person, which would violate his religion. He is being forced to say something he does not want to say.

So, I greatly disapprove of the church pushing for "freedom of religion" being fair game to single out any group for discrimination. Any group! Now asking a baker to do something outside of what he normally does, like a cake in rainbow colors, when he only does white wedding cakes, he already has a reason for refusal. He can tell them, "To have me do it will cost extra for the special design, but George over at Harmon's, he does specialized cakes all the time and frankly, you will get a better deal." See, his reason for refusal has nothing to do with who they are, but it is about what he does and does not sell.

My DIL makes specialized wedding cakes and cakes for other occasions, and I promise she charges more depending on the complicated design. And she has refused to make a particular cake, a couple of times that I know of. She considers each specially designed cake as a work of art, and while she will refuse a specific cake for artistic reasons, she would never discriminate against a specific person. One time she refused a cockroach looking cake, and one was for a Halloween party (think bloody body parts).

That right there is the difference. Refusing for artistic reasons/free speech reasons. For example, the photographer who is clenching his teeth because he disapproves of the wedding for any reason will not be at his artistic best, and should be honest enough to refuse for artistic reason. But if he has any tact, he should keep his mouth shut about his disapproval because customers who feel insulted are much more likely to sue on the grounds of discrimination.

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Mad Jax
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Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by Mad Jax » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:28 pm

As far as I'm concerned businesses have the right to make these kinds of decisions if they want. I'm not sure the exact nature of the church's briefs on the subject but in principle I consider it tyrannical to be able to bring a lawsuit against someone for this.
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LSOF
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Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by LSOF » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:56 pm

As far as I'm concerned, he can refuse to sell and be damned.
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Jeffret
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Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by Jeffret » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:28 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:06 pm
Yeah, like that sign in diners: "we reserve the right to serve refuse to anyone."
The problem is that those signs are basically wrong. They don't have the right to refuse service to anyone. They can post the sign if they want, but it's not legally accurate. If they try to exercise that right, they can find themselves in legal trouble.
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And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Hagoth
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Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by Hagoth » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:51 pm

Jeffret wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:28 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:06 pm
Yeah, like that sign in diners: "we reserve the right to serve refuse to anyone."
The problem is that those signs are basically wrong. They don't have the right to refuse service to anyone. They can post the sign if they want, but it's not legally accurate. If they try to exercise that right, they can find themselves in legal trouble.
I was just making a little joke there by putting the word refuse in the wrong place to change its meaning. ;)

Hypothetical question: what would happen if a baker refused to sell cakes to black people?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Thoughtful
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Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by Thoughtful » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:27 pm

Did you guys see the blog about the Mormon doctor refusing fertility treatments to a woman who was not married?

We have such a skewed sense of superiority that we really think other's lives are our business.

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Jeffret
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Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by Jeffret » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:50 pm

Corsair wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:50 am
I think there is an economic solution that would make a lot of problems go away naturally. Some organization should make up a registry of bakers and caterers that will happily provide cakes and food for the gayest of weddings. They should also have another public registry of businesses that will not serve an LGBT wedding. Let some public exposure do the work. Surely some progressive business could capitalize on competitors who will not serve a clientele with money to spend.
While this is a great theory, unfortunately history has shown us that in practice it's not a very reliable solution.

For one example, take a look at the The Negro Motorist Green Book. Admittedly, that situation was exacerbated by Jim Crow laws, which codified discrimination into the law, but even in areas where those didn't exist, the discrimination was so strong that "The Green Book" was an essential travel companion for any African-American who wanted to travel. The problem was that any black person who wanted or needed to travel anywhere in the country would find most doors closed to them. They had to carry "the Green Book" with them so that they could find establishments, for gas, food, water, lodging, repairs, and many other things, which would serve them. Even with it, travel was kind of treacherous for black people. Without it, they would have no idea if they could find a place to gas up, eat, sleep, etc.

In theory, there would be a market to serve black travelers and people could enter that market and make a profit. In reality, the nature of discrimination doesn't work that way. Discrimination tends to perpetuate itself. If a gas station owner decided to serve black people, he would find that pretty much all of his white business would dry up. He would then only be able to serve blacks, at 10% of the population. Who because of the myriad facets of discrimination were generally poorer than whites, with less money to spend. And then the business owner would find it more difficult to obtain his supplies. Further, he would find himself limited in the businesses that he could patronize because he was ostracized as a race traitor. Even in areas where the black population percentages were higher, the issues persisted, even to a greater degree, because of the increased societal pressure to keep the minority firmly in their place.

"The Green Book" was essential for decades. But, it's demise was quick and thorough. What changed? The Civil Rights Act of 1964 ushered in the era of anti-discrimination laws. Discriminatory laws were overriden. And businesses were forced to treat blacks equivalently to whites. They didn't acquiesce willingly but gradually they mostly did. We're still dealing with many of the issues. People realized that simply wishing for the discrimination to go away was never going to work. Market forces alone could not solve the problem, because the problem was ingrained into the market and perpetuated by the market. Only changes to the law could solve it.

Once discrimination is unwound fully enough, it is possible that market forces can keep discrimination in check, to a degree. If 13% of the population is black but 50% of the non-blacks base their business choices on non-discrimination that might work. But even that consideration denies the realities of local markets, especially small ones. If a black family is traveling through Wyoming and 4/10 of the gas stations won't serve them, they may find it extremely difficult. If they live in a lightly populated area there may be extremely few gas stations around. They may be limited to only a few within a hundred miles. If none of them will serve their kind, it doesn't help them that much that hundreds of miles away in the big city there are dozens that will.

The Alliance Defending Freedom has been searching for a case against anti-discrimination laws they can take to Supreme Court for years. They've finally got one there. Their goal is to subvert all anti-discrimination law. Or at least to make it so that anyone can avoid any anti-discrimination requirements by claiming strongly held religious beliefs. Which would subvert all anti-discrimination laws. And possibly other laws. Could someone claim a strongly held religious belief as a reason not to follow motor vehicle laws?
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And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Jeffret
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Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by Jeffret » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:54 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:51 pm
I was just making a little joke there by putting the word refuse in the wrong place to change its meaning. ;)

Hypothetical question: what would happen if a baker refused to sell cakes to black people?
I admit I didn't read carefully enough to notice the joke. My bad.

They'd be guilty of illegal discrimination. Probably local and state business laws. Certainly federal laws, likely including the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Lots of case law. I expect they could be charged with violating their customer's civil rights.

(It's not a hypothetical. It's a very real situation. It doesn't happen much these days, but it used to a lot. Discrimination against blacks is pretty much settled these days. Unless the ADF gets their way and the conservative Supreme Court we now have sides with them and destroys anti-discrimination law.)
Last edited by Jeffret on Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jeffret
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Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by Jeffret » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:55 pm

LSOF wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:56 pm
As far as I'm concerned, he can refuse to sell and be damned.
Only if you believe in hell and aren't worried about making this life a better place.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Jeffret
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Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by Jeffret » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:08 pm

alas wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:35 pm
I also think art like photography comes under free speech. Photographers for weddings can refuse a particular job for dozens of reasons already, but to tell the couple you disapprove of them even getting married is TACKY. A simple, "I am sorry, but I won't be able to make it, but I know another excellent photographer who might be available." I think a big part of the problem isn't just the refusal, but the insult that is tossed into the refusal.
In a practical sense, that's pretty much what these cases boil down to.

Generally, it is really hard to win an anti-discrimination case. Expensive. Time-consuming. Low probability of success. Lots and lots of illegal discrimination goes on all of the time. My wife has a friend who is a pagan who constantly has trouble with businesses discriminating against her because of her religion, which is one of the more foundational parts of anti-discrimination law. But doing anything about it would be too onerous.

In these particular cases the business person has openly stated their intention to illegally discriminate and made sure that the potential customer knew that they were being insulted and why. When pressed, they held to their explanations and insults. They stated their intention to continue breaking the law. These scofflaws have convicted themselves providing the evidence to prove their guilt. In the case of "Sweet Cakes by Melissa" practically all of their fine wasn't actually for violating anti-discrimination laws but because they doxed their victims and encouraged conservatives around the country to harass them.
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And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Jeffret
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Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by Jeffret » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:44 am

1smartdodog wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:44 am
The whole notion of any group trying to legislate through the courts is appalling to me. Go vote I say and stop trying to force your will on others from the bench.
I'm not entirely sure what you are referring to, but I think you are saying that Jack Phillips at Masterpiece Cakeshop, the ADF, the Mormon Church, and all the others who support his appeal are wrong to do so. They should not be seeking to overturn anti-discrimination law through the courts. Jack Phillips should have accepted the original court decision, which found him guilty of violating Colorado law, and not entered an appeal. If he and all his supporters want to overturn anti-discrimination law they should do so through either a legislative or public referendum process.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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