No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
User avatar
Corsair
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by Corsair » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:43 am

Jeffret wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:50 pm
While this is a great theory, unfortunately history has shown us that in practice it's not a very reliable solution.
Thank you for you substantive answer. I did not know about The Negro Motorist Green Book and how it is a practical example of this policy failing.

User avatar
AllieOop
Posts: 575
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:39 am
Location: Where the sand meets the Sea...

Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by AllieOop » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:47 am

Jeffret wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:44 am
1smartdodog wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:44 am
The whole notion of any group trying to legislate through the courts is appalling to me. Go vote I say and stop trying to force your will on others from the bench.
I'm not entirely sure what you are referring to, but I think you are saying that Jack Phillips at Masterpiece Cakeshop, the ADF, the Mormon Church, and all the others who support his appeal are wrong to do so. They should not be seeking to overturn anti-discrimination law through the courts. Jack Phillips should have accepted the original court decision, which found him guilty of violating Colorado law, and not entered an appeal. If he and all his supporters want to overturn anti-discrimination law they should do so through either a legislative or public referendum process.
I agree.

One thing that I have seen posted elsewhere is that Jack Phillips no longer bakes or sells wedding cakes to anyone. I think that's a good solution for him if he feels that strongly about not baking wedding cakes for SSM, but then would be willing to make them for other marriages.

Also, I've read that he can refuse to write something on any cake that he objects to because of his beliefs (or decorate it in an offensive manner). But he didn't even give this couple the chance to request any of that (and they've stated they didn't want anything written on the wedding cake they were attempting to order).
"There came a time when the desire to know the truth about the church became stronger than the desire to know the church was true."

User avatar
Jeffret
Posts: 1030
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 6:49 pm

Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by Jeffret » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:22 am

If you accept the validity of anti-discrimination laws in general and the validity of applying them to sexual minorities, it is difficult to see a good case that Jack Phillips' freedoms were violated.

History, experience, and lots of case law have shown us that rights or freedoms are not absolute. In spite of how some people attempt to oversimplify issues. The U.S. enjoys very strong protections for freedom of speech, but these are not absolute. The canonical example is that you don't have the freedom to yell "fire" in a crowded theater. Political expression (speech) is more strongly protected, but even that can be limited, for example by reasonable time and space restrictions. Freedom of religion is a strong, fundamental right, but if freedom of religion has any meaning, it has to also include freedom from religion. Freedom of religion grants you the right to live your own religion, but not to impose it onto others. Nor to demand that others respect your religion. Freedom of religion doesn't absolve you from having to adhere to laws of civil society. Religion can be given a strong deference when it comes to evaluating laws that attempt to burden it, to see if there is a way to resolve the conflict without burdening religion. But, that doesn't give religion rein to burden someone else's rights.

It is hard to see a strong case for how Phillips' freedom of speech is burdened by laws requiring him to treat his gay customers the same as his straight ones. The government isn't preventing him from saying certain things or requiring him to say certain things. They are not limiting his ability to engage in protests, expressive speech, or to work to change laws, including the ones preventing him from discriminating. They're requiring him to treat his gay customers equivalently in a business transaction. As sketched out in an earlier post, we've seen how marketplace discrimination can be quite harmful to society, particularly to oppressed minority subgroups.

It is hard to see how Phillips's freedom of religion has been abridged. Nothing has been done to stop him from believing in anything, expressing his devotion, or participating in any religious activities. The law says that he can't use his religious beliefs as a way to shield himself from legal requirements. He cannot use his religion as a cudgel to harm others.

He was asked to bake a cake, a somewhat custom cake, but there is no strong message inherent in his cake baking. He just wants to make sure and add on the message that he looks down upon gay couples. He wants to add onto his product that he can control how his product is used. It's a cake. The fact that it will be used as part of a gay marriage celebration is a minor detail.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

User avatar
crossmyheart
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:02 am
Location: Where the wind comes sweeping down the plain

Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by crossmyheart » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:07 pm

To me, the biggest issue in this is the Church is piggy backing on this specific scenario to further their own agenda all while using what is essentially the widow's mite to fund said agenda.

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: No Gay Cakes in Heaven

Post by moksha » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:38 pm

Places that would serve African-Americans in Utah in 1963:

https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/ite ... 9/mode/2up
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 41 guests