Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

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Give It Time
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Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

Post by Give It Time » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:41 pm

So, I went to a church activity, tonight. Assembling kits for school girls in Rwanda. While I was there a nice woman, sweet, sweet woman opened a conversation with me. She hadn't seen me in awhile. I confirmed this was true. She asked if I was attending the singles ward. I told her there was no singles ward for older adults in this area. She said that surely they have firesides and dances and such. I replied that I only have so much time in my week. Church is it's own chunk; all those other things are just another chunk on top of the church chunk. Besides, it would be nice to associate with other people in similar circumstances, but I have no desire to marry, again, so the social gatherings would be a waste of time. Then the poor woman asked other garden variety questions. All of which I ended up shooting down. Poor woman. Very sweet. My life just doesn't track normal.

Second scenario. My son was filling out an application online and it came to light there was some information that was wrong. So wrong that it tipped off to the need to tell about his father committing what walks and quacks like the duck of interest fraud and it looks like our identities were used to open accounts by my ex's former associates. I waited until son number one came home from ComicCon and told them both the story so they would understand what they need to look for in their credit reports and why. Remind me, again, of how I should have worked harder to save my marriage?

Third scenario. In my email, there's a propaganda piece from the church. How have prophets helped me? Elder Bednar answers youths questions, etc. etc. Pardon me, but this is featherweight stuff.

Can the church cut it with heavier weight problems?
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Palerider
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Re: Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

Post by Palerider » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:30 pm

The church would like to THINK they have the answer to the problems requiring heavy lifting. But when the answers get beyond praying harder, reading your scriptures more, and being sure to pay a full tithe along with attending the temple.....things start to get uncomfortable. Bishops begin to strain at their collars.

They are getting better at referring members to a professional counselor, but they are loathe to say, "You need a good lawyer...." or, "I'd like to encourage you to report this to the police."

As I recall the handbook requires Bishops and SP'S to make every effort to "save" the marriage, which is undeniably praiseworthy. The problem comes when the wife is many times the one who bears the cost of saving the marriage when she bears little responsibility for the wreckage in the first place.

Regardless of which spouse is responsible the other seems to have to suffer while waiting for change that may never come. And heaven forbid if there are two emotionally/mentally unstable individuals involved. Or it's just a bad personality match.

If I were a Bishop....well....that's why I would never be a Bishop....there's nothing worse than a salesman who is naively overconfident in his inferior product. :(
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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Not Buying It
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Re: Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:53 am

Nope. It can't. A superficial religion full of superficial ideas and superficial teachings lacks the tools to deal with problems in anything other than a superficial way.
Palerider wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:30 pm
The church would like to THINK they have the answer to the problems requiring heavy lifting. But when the answers get beyond praying harder, reading your scriptures more, and being sure to pay a full tithe along with attending the temple.....things start to get uncomfortable. Bishops begin to strain at their collars.
Palerider got it exactly right. Take a really big problem to your bishop and watch what happens.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Give It Time
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Re: Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

Post by Give It Time » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:43 pm

Not Buying It wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:53 am
Nope. It can't. A superficial religion full of superficial ideas and superficial teachings lacks the tools to deal with problems in anything other than a superficial way.
Palerider wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:30 pm
The church would like to THINK they have the answer to the problems requiring heavy lifting. But when the answers get beyond praying harder, reading your scriptures more, and being sure to pay a full tithe along with attending the temple.....things start to get uncomfortable. Bishops begin to strain at their collars.
Palerider got it exactly right. Take a really big problem to your bishop and watch what happens.
Actually, I have and he admitted he had nothing. That problem was smaller than this one, though. I had to admit, I admired that Bishop for admitting that problem was over his head. He's our SP, now.

Actually, when I composed the post, I was thinking of the dear, sweet woman in the hall that just thought all I needed was the gospel when the church sure wasn't being accommodating when it came to my time-strapped schedule. Then, there's the assumption that everyone must be married and I'll admit I'm an outlier on that one. So, this poor woman is trying to help and she just doesn't realize my life doesn't track normal.

I'm going to start a new paragraph, because I don't want to taint the previous. I realize people are just being helpful and perhaps someone hasn't heard of some church offering, but I'm an adult. I know about the singles ward. I know how to obtain information about activities for older singles. Now, if the church were starting up a new program, that would be different. However, that helpfulness is just a tad insulting, has me giving her uncomfortable answers, because I've already looked into these things. I am taking offense where none was intended. Society won't change, especially not Mormons. Still. I do wish they'd think.

The other thing I was thinking of when I composed this post was the email from the church. I had just finished my telling my sons about the fraud. The events of this story happened 4 years ago. Both sons just looked so ashamed of the fact their father was who he was. Now, they have this mess they'll have to deal with. I was feeling sadness over that when I opened that email. I'll confess to feeling a little hopeful. Nothing. There was nothing. In fact, everything about that email said, we may have fifteen pair of cojones running this church, but we still don't have sufficient cojones to handle your situation.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Mad Jax
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Re: Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

Post by Mad Jax » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:23 pm

It often seems as if the church overlooks the most troubled and in need of help but I have seen exceptions. When I was living in Corvallis the bishop of the other ward (there are only two) organized help and meetings for members with PTSD who had served in Afghanistan. There were approximately 4 who attended and of course being a former Marine they asked me to help even though I was in 2nd Ward (LDS veterans, while certainly not non-existent, are a little less common apparently. There were 3 of us they could gather up among two different wards who could put in the time).

A couple of these young guys were broken up that they couldn't serve a mission. Given their psychological state there was just no way. Also, really in need of therapy but getting really no help from the government. The VA kept petitioning on their behalf because we helped them write letters of appeal, not entirely sure how it works except that's what they asked me to do mostly; help them compose appeals. I also used to just listen to them which they seemed to appreciate.

I think "the church" does tackle important issues, if we use the definition as being the kingdom of god in the hearts of men. There are some, like that particular bishop, who I say would qualify. But as for the general organization of the church, I'd say it loses something the further up the chain of command you go.
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Give It Time
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Re: Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

Post by Give It Time » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:49 pm

Mad Jax wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:23 pm
It often seems as if the church overlooks the most troubled and in need of help but I have seen exceptions. When I was living in Corvallis the bishop of the other ward (there are only two) organized help and meetings for members with PTSD who had served in Afghanistan. There were approximately 4 who attended and of course being a former Marine they asked me to help even though I was in 2nd Ward (LDS veterans, while certainly not non-existent, are a little less common apparently. There were 3 of us they could gather up among two different wards who could put in the time).

A couple of these young guys were broken up that they couldn't serve a mission. Given their psychological state there was just no way. Also, really in need of therapy but getting really no help from the government. The VA kept petitioning on their behalf because we helped them write letters of appeal, not entirely sure how it works except that's what they asked me to do mostly; help them compose appeals. I also used to just listen to them which they seemed to appreciate.

I think "the church" does tackle important issues, if we use the definition as being the kingdom of god in the hearts of men. There are some, like that particular bishop, who I say would qualify. But as for the general organization of the church, I'd say it loses something the further up the chain of command you go.
I like this story and I'm glad you were able to help. I think for these vets you did the best and most right thing you could do. It may not seem like much to help write appeals and simply listen, but that's exactly the type of help that means a lot and doesn't take any specialized training.

Come to think of it, my sister had a calling to serve recovering alcoholics. I won't say where. That would identify her, but it was a very specific group. She, being a recovering alcoholic of long experience was able to be of good help to them.

I think both these cases were individual people who wanted to help and happened to have the right people available. I think you have a point that at the local level, the help can be very specific, targeted and effective. However, once, the institution gets involved, it gets so mucked up. I'm not going to blame the church for that one. An institution taking a program that works on a small scale and trying to make it work on a large scale, put the institution's stamp on it (their branded way of doing things), so it's now depersonalized does have a tendency to ruin great programs.
Last edited by Give It Time on Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Palerider
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Re: Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

Post by Palerider » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:55 pm

Mad Jax wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:23 pm
It often seems as if the church overlooks the most troubled and in need of help but I have seen exceptions. When I was living in Corvallis the bishop of the other ward (there are only two) organized help and meetings for members with PTSD who had served in Afghanistan. There were approximately 4 who attended and of course being a former Marine they asked me to help even though I was in 2nd Ward (LDS veterans, while certainly not non-existent, are a little less common apparently. There were 3 of us they could gather up among two different wards who could put in the time).

A couple of these young guys were broken up that they couldn't serve a mission. Given their psychological state there was just no way. Also, really in need of therapy but getting really no help from the government. The VA kept petitioning on their behalf because we helped them write letters of appeal, not entirely sure how it works except that's what they asked me to do mostly; help them compose appeals. I also used to just listen to them which they seemed to appreciate.

I think "the church" does tackle important issues, if we use the definition as being the kingdom of god in the hearts of men. There are some, like that particular bishop, who I say would qualify. But as for the general organization of the church, I'd say it loses something the further up the chain of command you go.
Thank you for your service both while in the military and since.

Those kinds of Bishops are hard to come by.

My brother was a decorated Viet Nam vet. He had one of the most difficult lives you can imagine. I spent years listening and trying to help him as did a few of his Bishops (some actually did more harm than good because they didn't understand the nature or severity of his syndrome) and a number of professional counselors. Still he damaged or hurt almost every life he came in contact with including his own.

I think the problem lies in a church officer or intrusive member thinking that the church has all the answers and that with enough faith, prayer, etc., etc. God will miraculously heal minds and hearts that are in reality permanently damaged for the remainder of this life.

But in many cases God chooses to wait until the next life to solve some of those problems. It's just a part of the schooling experience we have in this earthly territory (for both those who have the issues and those who don't) and I have to trust in His judgment that one day all things will be set right.

Some problems aren't solved in this life. My brother's weren't. I hope he's happier now.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Give It Time
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Re: Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

Post by Give It Time » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:42 pm

Palerider wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:55 pm
Mad Jax wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:23 pm
It often seems as if the church overlooks the most troubled and in need of help but I have seen exceptions. When I was living in Corvallis the bishop of the other ward (there are only two) organized help and meetings for members with PTSD who had served in Afghanistan. There were approximately 4 who attended and of course being a former Marine they asked me to help even though I was in 2nd Ward (LDS veterans, while certainly not non-existent, are a little less common apparently. There were 3 of us they could gather up among two different wards who could put in the time).

A couple of these young guys were broken up that they couldn't serve a mission. Given their psychological state there was just no way. Also, really in need of therapy but getting really no help from the government. The VA kept petitioning on their behalf because we helped them write letters of appeal, not entirely sure how it works except that's what they asked me to do mostly; help them compose appeals. I also used to just listen to them which they seemed to appreciate.

I think "the church" does tackle important issues, if we use the definition as being the kingdom of god in the hearts of men. There are some, like that particular bishop, who I say would qualify. But as for the general organization of the church, I'd say it loses something the further up the chain of command you go.
Thank you for your service both while in the military and since.

Those kinds of Bishops are hard to come by.

My brother was a decorated Viet Nam vet. He had one of the most difficult lives you can imagine. I spent years listening and trying to help him as did a few of his Bishops (some actually did more harm than good because they didn't understand the nature or severity of his syndrome) and a number of professional counselors. Still he damaged or hurt almost every life he came in contact with including his own.

I think the problem lies in a church officer or intrusive member thinking that the church has all the answers and that with enough faith, prayer, etc., etc. God will miraculously heal minds and hearts that are in reality permanently damaged for the remainder of this life.

But in many cases God chooses to wait until the next life to solve some of those problems. It's just a part of the schooling experience we have in this earthly territory (for both those who have the issues and those who don't) and I have to trust in His judgment that one day all things will be set right.

Some problems aren't solved in this life. My brother's weren't. I hope he's happier now.
:shock: Wow! Palerider. I'm sorry for the loss of your brother. Watching all of what he suffered must have been really challenging. Thank you for sharing and I hope he's happier, too.

That, btw, was one of the most compassionate explanations I've ever read about problems being solved in the next plane of existence. I hope I can do it justice.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Re: Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

Post by mooseman » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:04 pm

Id say it depends on the "big stuff". A natural disaster i think, in theory, they could. An earthquake levels logan or st George, the church could be a huge asset with volunteers as the wards and stakes jump into action. Their political machine could help secure support and safety for immigrants and refugees--and does to some extent (utah takes in more refugees and has way nicer laws towards illegals than most red states) and SWK did keeps nucs out of the west desert...
Thing is, what it does is to protect its own and itself. So big things that dont threaten it, like hurricanes, or cost money, like the homeless problem in slc, are ignored as being to costly with no beneift.
Personal big things--sucidie rates, marriage problems, fraud, abuse, ect--it can't because correlation has made it so focused on stream lining and efficiency members are people--they are cogs in the machine. It forgets were each unquie individuals and since.theit is no training, no support, and just a mantra of trust your gut, it fails everytime.
It's frustrating to see the last resort in a discussion of facts be: I disregard those facts because of my faith. Why even talk about facts if the last resort is to put faith above all facts that are contrary to your faith?

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Give It Time
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Re: Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

Post by Give It Time » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:46 pm

mooseman wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:04 pm
Id say it depends on the "big stuff". A natural disaster i think, in theory, they could. An earthquake levels logan or st George, the church could be a huge asset with volunteers as the wards and stakes jump into action. Their political machine could help secure support and safety for immigrants and refugees--and does to some extent (utah takes in more refugees and has way nicer laws towards illegals than most red states) and SWK did keeps nucs out of the west desert...
Thing is, what it does is to protect its own and itself. So big things that dont threaten it, like hurricanes, or cost money, like the homeless problem in slc, are ignored as being to costly with no beneift.
Personal big things--sucidie rates, marriage problems, fraud, abuse, ect--it can't because correlation has made it so focused on stream lining and efficiency members are people--they are cogs in the machine. It forgets were each unquie individuals and since.theit is no training, no support, and just a mantra of trust your gut, it fails everytime.
I think this is an interesting and practical perspective. There is a stanza in the Tao Te Ching that says that the universe is pragmatic. It's going to do what it needs to survive. It's nothing personal if you are impacted negatively, just business. I've written elsewhere how this was, at first, difficult, but then became oddly comforting to know that God is not some sort of weird sadist who gives me struggles to humble me into repentance.

I see what you're saying about how the church has a pragmatic approach. It's going to do what it needs to survive. Helping individuals doesn't give a good return on investment. It isn't good for the bottom line. It doesn't increase visibility and spread brand awareness. So, yes. It can handle the big problems that help it to survive.

Fine. Actually, I can accept that. The church is excellent at disaster relief and other visible service.

I wish there were some way the church could say to the people it doesn't set as a priority to help that the church simply isn't the best resource for healing for certain populations and just point them toward healthier options and give them support to get there. Once they're out the door, admit it with no judgement and shame for either party. If the church could do that, I see it as possible that, once healing has taken place, those sheep who had to get help from different shepherds might come back to the fold if their healing journey is respected.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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alas
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Re: Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

Post by alas » Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:49 pm

Palerider wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:55 pm
Mad Jax wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:23 pm
It often seems as if the church overlooks the most troubled and in need of help but I have seen exceptions. When I was living in Corvallis the bishop of the other ward (there are only two) organized help and meetings for members with PTSD who had served in Afghanistan. There were approximately 4 who attended and of course being a former Marine they asked me to help even though I was in 2nd Ward (LDS veterans, while certainly not non-existent, are a little less common apparently. There were 3 of us they could gather up among two different wards who could put in the time).

A couple of these young guys were broken up that they couldn't serve a mission. Given their psychological state there was just no way. Also, really in need of therapy but getting really no help from the government. The VA kept petitioning on their behalf because we helped them write letters of appeal, not entirely sure how it works except that's what they asked me to do mostly; help them compose appeals. I also used to just listen to them which they seemed to appreciate.

I think "the church" does tackle important issues, if we use the definition as being the kingdom of god in the hearts of men. There are some, like that particular bishop, who I say would qualify. But as for the general organization of the church, I'd say it loses something the further up the chain of command you go.
Thank you for your service both while in the military and since.

Those kinds of Bishops are hard to come by.

My brother was a decorated Viet Nam vet. He had one of the most difficult lives you can imagine. I spent years listening and trying to help him as did a few of his Bishops (some actually did more harm than good because they didn't understand the nature or severity of his syndrome) and a number of professional counselors. Still he damaged or hurt almost every life he came in contact with including his own.

I think the problem lies in a church officer or intrusive member thinking that the church has all the answers and that with enough faith, prayer, etc., etc. God will miraculously heal minds and hearts that are in reality permanently damaged for the remainder of this life.

But in many cases God chooses to wait until the next life to solve some of those problems. It's just a part of the schooling experience we have in this earthly territory (for both those who have the issues and those who don't) and I have to trust in His judgment that one day all things will be set right.

Some problems aren't solved in this life. My brother's weren't. I hope he's happier now.
As someone who struggled with PTSD....who am I kidding putting that in past tense. Try again.

As someone who struggles still after 50 years with PTSD, I agree with you that most church member's attitude that if you just have faith, God will magically fix things for you, is very damaging. Not only is the person suffering with constant nightmares, flash backs, triggers, etc, but the fact that God has not fixed it already is proof that you lack faith.

PTSD permanently changes both brain structure and brain/body chemistry. You can't really cure those changes in brain structure, and while the off balance chemistry may tend to diminish over time, it wrecks its havoc on the body. Traumatized people have too much cortisol in their system. Too much cortisol leads to obesity, which leads to heart problems and diabetes.

As to "can the church deal with big problems?" I think the answer is a huge no. Not only do they lack doctrine that does not blame the person who is suffering, they turn around and teach, "God will never send you any trial that you can't handle." That is the biggest piece of horse pucky ever invented. They imply that God protected those righteous missionaries in Mexico and didn't let the earthquake hurt them. So, what about the school children in the collapsed school? Were they not righteous or does God not love them? They constantly put "keeping the family together" as top priority over protecting women and children from abuse. Then they have a abuse hot line for bishops to call to protect the church from legal problems, but the hot line is manned by lawyers who do not have a clue or feel it is the church's job to help the victim. No effort is made to keep the victim in the home by kicking the perp out, no suggestion of counseling, absolutly nothing for the well being of the victim and family, just protect the church from legal entanglements. They tell the surviving family of a suicide that the dead loved one is going to hell for the suicide, with no comprehension of how depression warps their mind making them not accountable. Is being Gay a big problem, most look at how the church deals with that.

There is something about making it to the top of the church that weeds out anyone who has been through more than a hang nail in life, so the top leaders have no empathy for suffering because they have never suffered. I was shocked one time when an older GA was talking about undergoing surgery and what he learned from his suffering. It was obvious that this surgery was the worst thing he had ever experienced. He is 90 years old, and for the first time in his cushy life, he experiences suffering? It didn't used to be this bad, because we used to have leaders who had overcome life challenges, but now the church culture is too victim blaming, too "prosperity gospel", too focused on looking great from the outside. If someone has a child die, they cannot put in the time and energy to climb the church ladder. If someone's wife is raped, they need to be there for her while she heals, not off at church. If someone has a major business failure, if someone has a chronic disease, if someone has a special needs child, if someone has an alcoholic father, if someone has a drug addicted child, they simply cannot climb the church ladder.

So, our top leaders end up being the lucky ones who never have calamity hit them. Then they conclude that it is because they were righteous, and you have the perfect formulate for leaders who lack basic human compassion and are self righteous a** hats. They have no good advice because they have never experienced more that the smallest life challenges.

My mother went back to college after her kids were raised, and took a "writing your life history" class. So, she wrote about her life, about her son who was shot in the head, about her husband who sexually abused her daughter. Her teacher was beyond horrified and tried to explain about how life histories were supposed to be to inspire faith in future generations. My mother asked about what was she supposed to say about things that really happened so she could stay faith promoting? The teacher gulped, stammered, started, stopped, started again...finally he admitted that the church teaches us that things like that are not supposed to *happen*. This led to a good conversation about how people are never taught how to deal with the really bad stuff. It simply is not supposed to happen. So, when it does, people have no choice but to keep quiet or leave the church, because the really bad stuff is not supposed to happen. God protects those he loves from the really bad stuff.

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Give It Time
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Re: Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

Post by Give It Time » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:07 pm

I think you make several really good points, here. First of all, I hadn't considered that the church hierarchy weeds out the unlucky ones, because family tragedies and hardships take time to deal with and the church needs people's time. I agree with you about the mental health, rape, homosexuality, molestation, suicide and abuse. It's not just the church that can't handle them. It's many (not all), but many of the members who can't, as well, because what we are taught about why those things happen is just shameful. So, the members are taught these crappy messages and have no clue as to how to give comfort.

As for the whole, these things are not supposed to happen (or those things happen to other people). I actually tell people when I start sharing my story, "you know how you hear of some horrific thing and you think something like that could never happen to you, that's what I thought". Members simply aren't equipped with dealing with certain realities. My recent experience with my sons have been interesting. I looked at the shame on their faces after I told them about their father. These are two young men who already want nothing to do with their father. I don't know if it was just this story as stand-alone bad or the straw that broke the camel's back, but this was new.

I contemplated how to comfort my sons. I came to the conclusion that an adult in their life who is charged with their guidance needs to tell them their father is an asshole. So far, no one has done that. It's been all about compassion, understanding and forgiveness. A lot of this is because the court advises this. Also, there's the argument that if you don't forgive, you'll take up that behavior too (I don't know if that's actually true). However, they've been taught by many adults since they were babes in arms that certain behaviors are wrong. There is a need for compassion and understanding, but there comes a point where it needs to be acknowledged that the hand they've been dealt simply by being the offspring of a certain man is crap and unfair. I figured no one else has stepped up to do this. So, it fell to me.

I didn't want to do this. I believe in being compassionate. I shared my angst in a very brief bullet-pointed way with a friend at work. She said, "I'm sure they'll be able to straighten up their credit without too much trouble". No shock over the fraud. No anger that their father isn't doing anything to clean it up. I wonder sometimes if I'm in a moral twilight zone. I told my sister and another friend. Both of them were fantastically supportive, but both of them have had those lives that aren't supposed to happen.

I remember being very disconnected about these things when I was younger. It has taken living these difficult things to get me to understand. However, I think compassion and connection can be taught from the pulpit. People may not fully understand, but they will better be able to connect.

I did end up telling older son his father's an asshole and younger son his father's a jerk. I told them that I think they needed to hear an adult who has been charged with their guidance draw that line in the sand. I told them it was perfectly okay to be angry, hurt, annoyed, confused by their father. They seemed to appreciate my giving them that permission.

I have to say, though, that when I started this NOM journey, I wouldn't have known not to tell them to forgive, etc. That's been part of the rape culture conversation and my own experience of being told to forgive feels like they're trying to shut down the conversation, because the listener is too uncomfortable.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Give It Time
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Re: Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

Post by Give It Time » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:13 pm

Oh yes. I wanted to add. I recently read a talk by a female leader. She started by saying her life hasn't been difficult. She hasn't known tragedy, or abuse or..I can't remember, because I kind of closed her off. But she went on to share some uplifting vanilla message.

I shut her off, mentally, because I've come to the conclusion that the desire to help may be there, but the training and skill are not. What frequently happens is unintentional hurt. So, now I say that if you know nothing about those difficult topics. If you haven't experienced them or you aren't trained, I know you mean well, but just zip it.

So, I zipped her out.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Re: Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

Post by Mad Jax » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:21 pm

Give It Time wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:07 pm
I contemplated how to comfort my sons. I came to the conclusion that an adult in their life who is charged with their guidance needs to tell them their father is an asshole. So far, no one has done that. It's been all about compassion, understanding and forgiveness. A lot of this is because the court advises this. Also, there's the argument that if you don't forgive, you'll take up that behavior too (I don't know if that's actually true). However, they've been taught by many adults since they were babes in arms that certain behaviors are wrong. There is a need for compassion and understanding, but there comes a point where it needs to be acknowledged that the hand they've been dealt simply by being the offspring of a certain man is crap and unfair. I figured no one else has stepped up to do this. So, it fell to me.
I think this is a difficult balance to find for some; conversely, the way I see it is that I don't think these ideas are mutually exclusive. Telling somebody the truth, even if that truth involves informing them about somebody else's misdeeds, is not necessarily condemning the person. I love my dad very much but it's important that I not be dishonest to my nieces and nephews about their grandfather's behavior in the past. I hope they see that having made mistakes and having been hurtful doesn't change the fact that I can love my dad. I suspect that I'm preaching to the choir in saying that to you though.

I think the way I came to reconcile my own misgivings about forgiving others or letting go of grudges, and with accepting the forgiveness of others, is when I realized that love is simply a greater thing than any person deserves. And when I realized how great a thing love was, I decided I did not want to dishonor so wondrous of a thing. That's always for each individual to decide though.
Free will is a golden thread flowing through the matrix of fixed events.

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Give It Time
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Re: Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

Post by Give It Time » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:40 pm

Mad Jax wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:21 pm
Give It Time wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:07 pm
I contemplated how to comfort my sons. I came to the conclusion that an adult in their life who is charged with their guidance needs to tell them their father is an asshole. So far, no one has done that. It's been all about compassion, understanding and forgiveness. A lot of this is because the court advises this. Also, there's the argument that if you don't forgive, you'll take up that behavior too (I don't know if that's actually true). However, they've been taught by many adults since they were babes in arms that certain behaviors are wrong. There is a need for compassion and understanding, but there comes a point where it needs to be acknowledged that the hand they've been dealt simply by being the offspring of a certain man is crap and unfair. I figured no one else has stepped up to do this. So, it fell to me.
I think this is a difficult balance to find for some; conversely, the way I see it is that I don't think these ideas are mutually exclusive. Telling somebody the truth, even if that truth involves informing them about somebody else's misdeeds, is not necessarily condemning the person. I love my dad very much but it's important that I not be dishonest to my nieces and nephews about their grandfather's behavior in the past. I hope they see that having made mistakes and having been hurtful doesn't change the fact that I can love my dad. I suspect that I'm preaching to the choir in saying that to you though.

I think the way I came to reconcile my own misgivings about forgiving others or letting go of grudges, and with accepting the forgiveness of others, is when I realized that love is simply a greater thing than any person deserves. And when I realized how great a thing love was, I decided I did not want to dishonor so wondrous of a thing. That's always for each individual to decide though.
I've never considered those thoughts about love. I think I'll sit with that a bit.

I agree. I think it's important to recognize and call something what it is so we can deal with that truth. I think it's possible to simply state the facts without including a lot of emotional embellishment.

My sons have seen me reconcile my feelings about my father. They know it's possible.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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alas
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Re: Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

Post by alas » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:05 am

Mad Jax wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:21 pm
Give It Time wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:07 pm
I contemplated how to comfort my sons. I came to the conclusion that an adult in their life who is charged with their guidance needs to tell them their father is an asshole. So far, no one has done that. It's been all about compassion, understanding and forgiveness. A lot of this is because the court advises this. Also, there's the argument that if you don't forgive, you'll take up that behavior too (I don't know if that's actually true). However, they've been taught by many adults since they were babes in arms that certain behaviors are wrong. There is a need for compassion and understanding, but there comes a point where it needs to be acknowledged that the hand they've been dealt simply by being the offspring of a certain man is crap and unfair. I figured no one else has stepped up to do this. So, it fell to me.
I think this is a difficult balance to find for some; conversely, the way I see it is that I don't think these ideas are mutually exclusive. Telling somebody the truth, even if that truth involves informing them about somebody else's misdeeds, is not necessarily condemning the person. I love my dad very much but it's important that I not be dishonest to my nieces and nephews about their grandfather's behavior in the past. I hope they see that having made mistakes and having been hurtful doesn't change the fact that I can love my dad. I suspect that I'm preaching to the choir in saying that to you though.

I think the way I came to reconcile my own misgivings about forgiving others or letting go of grudges, and with accepting the forgiveness of others, is when I realized that love is simply a greater thing than any person deserves. And when I realized how great a thing love was, I decided I did not want to dishonor so wondrous of a thing. That's always for each individual to decide though.
I like your thoughts about love. People simply could not understand that I could love my father for the good in him, as well as hate him for the abuse. They either pressured me to "forgive" = shut up and pretend nothing bad ever happened, or to hate him and cut off all connection with him and everyone else in my family that ever had anything to do with him.

The thing is, children love their parents. And if the child has to kill the love, the child kills part of themselves. This is why it is so hard for abused children, they both love and hate the abusive parent. The only way to help them without doing more damage is to accept the ambivalence and tell them the ambivalence is OK. This is why divorced parents should not attack the other parent, because when they do, they tell the child that only anger/hate is OK, but not love. But the nonabusive parent should be honest about the bad qualities in the abusive parent and as they do so, to to still give the child permission to continue to love them for their good qualities. Even sometimes point out their own ambivalence and how difficult it is to remember the good when one is angry. Always remember, if you did not love the abuser, you would not be so angry and hurt.

So, GIT, a follow up conversation might be in order, to find out how they are dealing with the information and to remind them that anger is OK, and confusion is OK, and that part of them will always feel a part of their father. You might not want to call it "love," but there will always be a bond, an imprint, their dad will always be part of them and that needs to be OK.

At my dad's funeral, I was really worried about how my siblings were going to handle the fact that their father was a jerk, in a setting where 90% of the audience doesn't even know. He was sexually abusive to both girls and emotionally abusive to all of us. How to be honest and kind? At 99% of Mormon funerals everyone pretends that the person was a Saint, and if that happened, I just might be sick. My oldest brother has always ignored it, so, I was pretty sure that would be how he would handle a public setting where you are not supposed to speak ill of the dead, and yet he would not turn a jerk into a saint just to make Mormons happy. My youngest brother refused to participate, my sister refused to participate, I figured that if anyone had a right to refuse to participate, it was me. I got to quietly dance on the grave later. With some of 3/5 of us refusing to participate, and 4/5 of us somewhere between flaming apostates and quiet NOMs, it kind of left us short on people to give talks and say prayers. Even when we went to the in laws and children, both My older brother's wives refused to participate and two of my siblings never married. The grandchildren either idolized him, (oldest brothers children) didn't even know him(middle brother's children, Then there were my children who would grudgingly do anything I needed them to do because they understood the situation. But 2 still couldn't do the two "priesthood"prayers. That only gave us one more person for prayers. I trusted my son to give one talk, if it was like the life history, and he could throw in some churchy stuff. My husband or son were the only ones who were even qualified to give grave dedication and family prayer. How do you DO a Mormon funeral with a grand total of three who are willing to even participate who are believing Mormons, and then again, maybe we should have dumped tradition and had an Irish wake. My NOM brother, middle of the three boys, volunteered the closing prayer at the funeral, hasn't said a prayer in 30 years, but said he would do this.

But what he managed to say in that prayer was the most honest thing at the whole funeral, because without blame or anger, he recognized in the prayer, both the love for the good qualities and that dad was a jerk, without suggesting that we all should forgive. His final line was "May we pass on the good that he taught us, and learn from his mistakes so that we can improve the love in our own families."

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Mad Jax
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Re: Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

Post by Mad Jax » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:58 am

Alas out of curiosity have you ever read "Speaker for the Dead" by Orson Scott Card?
Free will is a golden thread flowing through the matrix of fixed events.

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Give It Time
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Re: Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

Post by Give It Time » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:27 am

Alas, that whole post was beautiful. I will take this to heart

So, GIT, a follow up conversation might be in order, to find out how they are dealing with the information and to remind them that anger is OK, and confusion is OK, and that part of them will always feel a part of their father. You might not want to call it "love," but there will always be a bond, an imprint, their dad will always be part of them and that needs to be OK.
And do. Thank you.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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NOMinally Mormon
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Re: Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

Post by NOMinally Mormon » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:44 am

Nope.
I had big problems when my kids were teenagers and was caught between not being able to afford any kind of counseling but making too much money for government help. So I explained the situation to the bishop and asked for help. His eyes got wide and his mouth hung open. Then he told me that the church really didn't have any assistance to offer, and that he had never met a family as messed up as mine. I had been hoping for a referral to lds social services but that was never offered. For the rest of that bishops tenure, he never spoke to me or made eye contact.

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alas
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Re: Can The Church Handle Really Big Problems?

Post by alas » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:58 am

Mad Jax wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:58 am
Alas out of curiosity have you ever read "Speaker for the Dead" by Orson Scott Card?
No, and I am only sorta familiar with who OSC is.

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