Hey... wait a minute

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Hagoth
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Hey... wait a minute

Post by Hagoth » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:57 pm

The Word of Wisdom was received by revelation in 1833, but they passed around fortified wine at the Kirtland temple dedication in 1836. What gives? If it was ok to ignore the WoW for special occasions back then - for the specific purpose of helping people have a more spiritual experience - it should be ok now. It would certainly be an improvement.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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mooseman
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Re: Hey... wait a minute

Post by mooseman » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:17 pm

Apologist answer--if it had of been enforced from the get go, no one would be left on the church! It was for the weakest of the saints it was slowly implemented! Just like the priesthood (not a) ban or post manifesto polygamy, it took time to get a generation that could be held to the standard dont cha no.

Reality--it wouldnt even effect our lives if it wasnt for a recovering Alcoholic prophet searching for a new mormon identity post polygamy during the temperance movement.
I dont think the church will ever let up in it, and you'll still get happy valley residents shunning cafinee trying to find a faithful reason ice coffee is bad. I mean, mormons are know for three things--polygamy, hating gays, and the Wow. 2 make them cringe, and 1 makes them feel proudly smug:why give up what they are proud of?
It's frustrating to see the last resort in a discussion of facts be: I disregard those facts because of my faith. Why even talk about facts if the last resort is to put faith above all facts that are contrary to your faith?

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Give It Time
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Re: Hey... wait a minute

Post by Give It Time » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:55 pm

What I've heard is the verses about wine of your own making are actually there so that Joseph could serve drugged wine to induce revelatory experiences.

Drugs being used for revelatory experiences was recently discussed on a thread by rob4hope. All of that theory. All of it. Is pure conjecture. It's important to keep that in mind.

My personal view is there is a fair amount of smoke around this issue and I don't have a problem with this practice having taken place, except for the fact the drugging--if it happened--was apparently clandestine. Those were different times, more primitive, more primitive views. Even today, drug-induced spiritual experiences are still a practice in some pagan religions.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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moksha
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Re: Hey... wait a minute

Post by moksha » Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:37 am

The word of wisdom did not start out as a mandatory health code. It was originally given to mollify Emma and the female boarders who were tasked with the unpleasantness of cleaning up the tobacco spittle and booze bottles from the late night school of prophecy conducted around the cracker barrel upstairs in the store.

Sometimes things grow in importance, especially as the temperance movement picked up steam nationally. It got ratified during a conference in 1856. It really picked up steam after the national alcohol prohibition. That was no doubt the era when the spirit of Parley McConkie Capone theoretically established a tunnel from under the Temple to the Salt Lake Alta Club, where patrons could order martinis in a whiskey glass without the vermouth and olive.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Give It Time
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Re: Hey... wait a minute

Post by Give It Time » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:34 am

moksha wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:37 am
The word of wisdom did not start out as a mandatory health code. It was originally given to mollify Emma and the female boarders who were tasked with the unpleasantness of cleaning up the tobacco spittle and booze bottles from the late night school of prophecy conducted around the cracker barrel upstairs in the store.

Sometimes things grow in importance, especially as the temperance movement picked up steam nationally. It got ratified during a conference in 1856. It really picked up steam after the national alcohol prohibition. That was no doubt the era when the spirit of Parley McConkie Capone theoretically established a tunnel from under the Temple to the Salt Lake Alta Club, where patrons could order martinis in a whiskey glass without the vermouth and olive.

I didn't know the Alta Club had a bar! I knew a few things about the Alta Club.

1. It's very exclusive
2. Women weren't allowed (It's my understanding that's changed)
3. If women are allowed, I know the first one who was allowed to go.

Back to a more direct response to the OP and to build on what Moksha wrote. It's also my understanding the WofW increased in importance as polygamy wanted in importance. It was the new way of making us a "peculiar" people. In hindsight, that could actually be considered to be just as effective at making us peculiar as polygamy. It is peculiar to have a health code that bans the four healthiest beverages in existence outside of water, yet let's members drink the unhealthiest swill there is with abandon.

The Word of Wisdom is about making us a peculiar people.

I've noticed that polygamy actually seems to be a little more accepted since people have become more tolerant of the many varieties of sexuality. So, this not drinking coffee, tea, wine and beer for "health" reasons will probably end up being more peculiar in the long run than polygamy.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Jeffret
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Re: Hey... wait a minute

Post by Jeffret » Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:12 am

Give It Time wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:34 am
The Word of Wisdom is about making us a peculiar people.

I've noticed that polygamy actually seems to be a little more accepted since people have become more tolerant of the many varieties of sexuality. So, this not drinking coffee, tea, wine and beer for "health" reasons will probably end up being more peculiar in the long run than polygamy.
Yes. This has been my observation.

Originally polygamy was born out of Joseph's dalliances and desire to build his power. After Joseph's death, Brigham used it to demonstrate his power. But one of the big side effects of it was how it established them as a peculiar people. It had a strong effect as a tribal identifier. Of course, through the whole thing, loyalty was a major component.

When the Church was forced to abandon polygamy, really, truly, after many attempts at hiding it, they lost their major tribal identifier, their way that members could demonstrate their tribal loyalty. Prior to that point, the WoW was not a significant thing. It wasn't much different than other temperance movement guidelines of the time. But, after polygamy the Church started emphasizing adherence to the WoW. I don't by any means think the Church leaders were consciously doing this. Much of it was collective. The tribe needed an identifier, a way demonstrate loyalty, and a way to judge others. The WoW increased in importance to fulfill that role.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Hey... wait a minute

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:01 am

We had a sister in sunday school relating a missionary experience not long ago lamenting not having an answer for why coffee and tea are bad. The only good answer is arbitrary litmus test.

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Hagoth
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Re: Hey... wait a minute

Post by Hagoth » Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:40 am

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:01 am
We had a sister in sunday school relating a missionary experience not long ago lamenting not having an answer for why coffee and tea are bad. The only good answer is arbitrary litmus test.
The answer I used to give my kids is that we do it because we are a covenant people. It's not really about health so much as it is about making a sacrifice to show your devotion to god. Jews don't abstain from pork because it is poison, but because they have made a covenant with God to do so. I still think it's a pretty reasonable answer, except for two things. First, it is not a covenant with God, but with the church. Second, the church still continues to claim it as a health code, even though tea and coffee have proven to be very healthy, while we have no restrictions on all of the stuff we eat that is unquestionably unhealthy. We have deemphasized the run and not be weary part and we're just trying to manage the walk and not faint part.

I really don't care that they drank at the dedication; it's a tradition I would like to see restored! But as Give It Time said, if Joseph was slipping these folks a mickey without their realization of what they were taking, that's pretty dastardly.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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deacon blues
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Re: Hey... wait a minute

Post by deacon blues » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:02 am

Fast & Testimony meetings might get more if real wine was used. :P
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

Anon70
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Re: Hey... wait a minute

Post by Anon70 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:21 am

deacon blues wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:02 am
Fast & Testimony meetings might get more if real wine was used. :P
Haha! Ours are too "real" already!

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Corsair
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Re: Hey... wait a minute

Post by Corsair » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:57 pm

My understanding is that the modern implementation of the WoW came about in the 1920s during prohibition. Brigham Young established breweries and distilleries in 1800s Utah.

Moderation was recommended in the 19th century. Full temperance was not a temple rec requirement until after the Mormons wanted to be patriotic Americans in the decades after polygamy ended and statehood began.

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2bizE
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Re: Hey... wait a minute

Post by 2bizE » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:29 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:01 am
We had a sister in sunday school relating a missionary experience not long ago lamenting not having an answer for why coffee and tea are bad. The only good answer is arbitrary litmus test.
This. There is no good reason for the ban. People used to make up things like caffeine, but that is not it...so then what is the reason?
~2bizE

Lloyd Christmas
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Re: Hey... wait a minute

Post by Lloyd Christmas » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:19 pm

I believe if you take a look, real wine was used by the apostles for sacrament until 1906. The temperance movement was in full force by non Mormon Christians in the country by then, and the LDS Church actually complied not as a leader in prohibition, but was reactionary to the other denominations calling them out.

It was a prophet in the 1900s or so that led the hard stance about coffee, tea and tobacco and Heber j. Grant made it a temple requirement in 1921. Alcohol was illegal at the time. And the Church has never looked back.

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Emower
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Re: Hey... wait a minute

Post by Emower » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:43 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:40 am
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:01 am
We had a sister in sunday school relating a missionary experience not long ago lamenting not having an answer for why coffee and tea are bad. The only good answer is arbitrary litmus test.
The answer I used to give my kids is that we do it because we are a covenant people. It's not really about health so much as it is about making a sacrifice to show your devotion to god. Jews don't abstain from pork because it is poison, but because they have made a covenant with God to do so. I still think it's a pretty reasonable answer, except for two things. First, it is not a covenant with God, but with the church. Second, the church still continues to claim it as a health code, even though tea and coffee have proven to be very healthy, while we have no restrictions on all of the stuff we eat that is unquestionably unhealthy. We have deemphasized the run and not be weary part and we're just trying to manage the walk and not faint part.

I really don't care that they drank at the dedication; it's a tradition I would like to see restored! But as Give It Time said, if Joseph was slipping these folks a mickey without their realization of what they were taking, that's pretty dastardly.
The answer is it was not a commandment back then, but it is now and obedience may be more of the point now. Combine that with a shoulder shrug and you have a checkmate right there.

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deacon blues
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Re: Hey... wait a minute

Post by deacon blues » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:45 pm

Excellent point. The WofW became more prominent when prohibition and the temperance movement were peaking.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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moksha
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Re: Hey... wait a minute

Post by moksha » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:45 pm

Give It Time wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:34 am
It is peculiar to have a health code that bans the four healthiest beverages in existence outside of water, yet let's members drink the unhealthiest swill there is with abandon.
Are you knocking red and green sugary Kool-Aid?

I know green tea and coffee are among the healthiest beverages, but what are the other two?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Give It Time
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Re: Hey... wait a minute

Post by Give It Time » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:20 pm

moksha wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:45 pm
Give It Time wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:34 am
It is peculiar to have a health code that bans the four healthiest beverages in existence outside of water, yet let's members drink the unhealthiest swill there is with abandon.
Are you knocking red and green sugary Kool-Aid?

I know green tea and coffee are among the healthiest beverages, but what are the other two?
Church approved swill. The church approves, because they are the colors of Christmas, but the rainbow layered jello salad is about to be banned at all church functions.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

Korihor
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Re: Hey... wait a minute

Post by Korihor » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:27 pm

WHAT!
There's an inconsistency in church doctrine and history?!?!?!
Reading can severely damage your ignorance.

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Random
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Re: Hey... wait a minute

Post by Random » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:22 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:57 pm
The Word of Wisdom was received by revelation in 1833, but they passed around fortified wine at the Kirtland temple dedication in 1836. What gives? If it was ok to ignore the WoW for special occasions back then - for the specific purpose of helping people have a more spiritual experience - it should be ok now. It would certainly be an improvement.
The Word of Wisdom says wine is to be used "only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him." (Doctrine and Covenants Section 89:5) And should be made by themselves. I think a temple dedication counts as a sacrament, as does a wedding.

If the members of the Church really obeyed the Word of Wisdom, they would be drinking mild barley drinks and avoiding hot drinks, and drinking wine for the sacrament of the Lord's supper, weddings, and other special occasions.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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Random
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Re: Hey... wait a minute

Post by Random » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:24 pm

2bizE wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:29 pm
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:01 am
We had a sister in sunday school relating a missionary experience not long ago lamenting not having an answer for why coffee and tea are bad. The only good answer is arbitrary litmus test.
This. There is no good reason for the ban. People used to make up things like caffeine, but that is not it...so then what is the reason?
My daughter keeps pushing me to drink coffee because it can help stave off Parkinson's and dementia. Caffeine calms me down and relaxes me. I think coffee and tea are not good hot, because something hot can burn your mouth, throat, and stomach. So can hot chocolate and hot herbal tea.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.

Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK

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