Corsair wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:04 pm
Jeffret wrote: ↑Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:13 pm
That was targeted at your devout friends, not you. And yes, whether they recognize it or not, it is pretty much a trick question / statement. (Would they accept that as a valid way to determine church doctrine? Whatever leads to greater church growth determines what is right?)
They do use that metric to decide which is the true church among the many denominations inadvertently founded by Joseph Smith.
Obviously it is the large, wealthy church headed by T. Spencer Monson. God would certainly not sanction some church that is only 0.003% of the world population like Community of Christ. He sanctions the LDS church with 0.2% of the population.
Would allowing full participation of women into the LDS hierarchy improve the church by some definable metric? I assume that this would be an improvement for many women. But would it somehow make the LDS church more "true" in some way? I'm going through this scenario but it seems like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic for the most part. Having women apostles might change some social policies, but it won't make the Book of Mormon more historical, nor will it erase onerous legacy of plural marriage.
Would gender equality increase devotion to Jesus Christ? Clearly there are women in the hierarchy of many churches. Is this a way to grow Christianity or are the more systemic problems that it is now facing?
If treating women like full human beings is a definable metric, then yes, allowing women full participation would greatly improve the church.
If your only "definable metric" is some kind of absolute historically perfect "truth", then no, it doesn't make the church true, any more that the churches that are doing so are "true".
If your measure is from your own selfish male perspective, as a NOM, I guess it wouldn't make too much difference, but if you give a damn about others then it sure as hell SHOULD make a difference to you. Got any female friends or family who are still in the church. Well, it sure would improve their life. Got daughters or grand daughters still in? It would save them from feeling worthless in God's eyes because they are female and obviously God only really loves his sons.
Corsair, I thought you have been around on NOM long enough to hear some of the ways this church damages women. Do you really think it is OK for any organization to continue doing so?
For me, it sure would make being a NOM less painful. I went to church recently, with my little granddaughters who are being raised in the church. Well, I caught about ten sexist comments from the pulpit---it was F&T meeting and we are a backwards rural area, so worse than your average ward, but not to the level of abnormal. (Besides, we were in the "visitors" sac meeting, so 90% of the congregation was tourists up from the Wasatch front. And over half the testimonies identified as visitors) but as my youngest granddaughter was sitting next to me, not paying attention because *boring*, but I remembered being her age (7) and hearing comments and messages and over the top praise for deacons and boy missionaries, and comparing it to what I heard about women/girls and deciding that girls are not children of God, because so many scriptures say "men" and "sons of God" and women girls are left out. Some times we are supposed to "know" it means us to, but other times it means just males and yet it is not said any different. All the stories in primary about prophets, from the Bible, from the BoM were all about boys. All. The. Stories. So, Occam's razor, the times girls are told that we are children of God is false. Boys are the only ones who are children of God and girls are just....I don't know...future mothers, a necessity for getting boys bodies? Sort f like how Eve was given to Adam. *HE* was made in the image of God, then she was given to him because by himself he could not have children. But girls and boys are of such obvious difference in value to God that girls cannot be Gods real children. Maybe my mother's sarcasm about how women must not really have souls is true. I was seven. So, it is painful too see these innocent little girls growing up in this environment where their big brother is important to God, but they are not quite even after thoughts.
So, yes, it would make a huge difference to have women be equal within the church. We can't blow it all to hell, so our only option is to try to fix the damn thing. Your question is like asking if efforts to feed children in Africa make any measurably difference by any definable metric. Well, there are still humans if Africa, and if we care about our fellow humans, then yes it makes a real difference, maybe not to you, but to them. So, there are still female humans in the church are they are still being hurt by being treated as second class TO GOD. So, yes, it would make a real difference to them.
It might not make the church "true" but who gives a shit about that? It would make the church *better* for those still in it. Just like enough food might make things better for the people who are still in Africa.