A God of pleading not for me

[1smartdodog]

I was thinking about the priesthood blessing thread and I wonder if Mormons realize they have created a God who requires constant begging and pleading to get the most minuscule result. A god the requires huge amounts of energy on a daily basis yet gives no to tangible evidence that he is even listening.

I would prefer a God that may not intervene but does not require me to beg at his feet. I begged for many years and never got any real direct answers. Let alone some kind of evidence of priesthood in action.

I get that people want there to be some being that really cares and is going to relieve them from their ailments or pain, but I do not see any widespread evidence that he does. So why the charade of acting like he does.

Even now there are times I want to try and communicate with god for some intervention, but I remind myself it never worked for 50 years so deal with the reality and fix your own problems the best you can. And realize there are just some things that you can not change.

To quote the songstress Shania Twain. "I'd rather die standing, than live on my knees"

[Emower]

This really resonates with me. I think I agree. The TBM habits in me would say that this is a prime example of being hard-hearted and stiffnecked. Even if that was the case though, we seem to have created a God that will abandon you and cut ties if you are not doing things exactly right.

I am uncomfortable anymore with the pleading. I did that for a couple of years during my FC, and nothing really got resolved to a large extent.

[Rob4Hope]

... but I remind myself it never worked for 50 years so deal with the reality and fix your own problems the best you can. And realize there are just some things that you can not change.

You hit something here. I am reminded that one of the stages of grief is denial. What is REALLY sad is the religious ideals of PH and LDS Blessings feeding denial in ways that keep people from moving through grief and taking responsibility for their own lives--what they can and can't do. I think its criminal in a way; you have people who struggle with real heart-wrenching problems and along comes the idea of: "just get a priesthood blessing" and everything is alright.

Nope.

And then they sink the hook deeper: "Well, maybe you just need to have more faith" or "Have you been reading your scriptures?" or "maybe its just not God's will." Never is the idea of "maybe priesthood blessings are just bunk" addressed.

[No Tof]

For a time it felt lonely without that imaginary friend. Now I look around and talk to real people.
Seems to work so much better.

Like Bill Reel says I hope in a god. However since the ideas I grew up with don't mesh with my experienced reality, I'll work with fellow humans to deal with the issues in life.

[moksha]

I get that people want there to be some being that really cares and is going to relieve them from their ailments or pain, but I do not see any widespread evidence that he does.

The benefit might lay in the comfort that such a faith provides by itself, rather than in any act of supernatural intervention. A man can sit in a pasture and transcendentally mediate. What makes the man smile is the peaceful feeling he gets from within rather than any sounds or smells from the pasture.

[1smartdodog]

I get that people want there to be some being that really cares and is going to relieve them from their ailments or pain, but I do not see any widespread evidence that he does.

The benefit might lay in the comfort that such a faith provides by itself, rather than in any act of supernatural intervention. A man can sit in a pasture and transcendentally mediate. What makes the man smile is the peaceful feeling he gets from within rather than any sounds or smells from the pasture.

That is not something Mormonism would ever teach you to do. Meditation is not something I was ever thought. I was taught to dig holes just to prove how deep I could go

I

[Corsair]

That is not something Mormonism would ever teach you to do. Meditation is not something I was ever thought. I was taught to dig holes just to prove how deep I could go

Right. Meditation allows atheists, believers, and seekers to find some rather profound answers about consciousness and understanding. The LDS church only encourages meditation about how awesome are the Mormon prophets and temples.

[Linked]

I agree with the OP. What purpose does all that begging and pleading actually serve? Is it really of value to an individual?

[Palerider]

That is not something Mormonism would ever teach you to do. Meditation is not something I was ever thought. I was taught to dig holes just to prove how deep I could go

I remember watching that old church film about Lorenzo snow and tithing and how after the rains miraculously came he went to God in prayer and thanksgiving. One of his key phrases was something to the effect of: "Please show me what I can do to prove my love for you (God)." Kind of a false doctrine being taught there I think.

That concept of "proving" our love for God can be corrupted pretty easily. See self=flagellation and horsehair shirts as an example. I've actually thought about Enos from the BofM who wouldn't stop praying until he got an answer from God and wondered if I should do something similar. But I've come to the conclusion that God knows our hearts without us having to prove anything to him. Therefore to attempt to "show" God ANYTHING is more along the lines of tempting God rather than informing him.

I've concluded in my prayers that what I should say is: "This or that seems like it might be helpful right now Heavenly Father, but if it doesn't come, I'll do the best I can and accept my situation as being something I have to work through. You know better than I do what's necessary.

Numerous times I've had what I consider divine intervention. I really shouldn't be alive right now even from a statistical point of view. Other times I've had to plod on through doing the best I can. Good times or bad times I end up just being thankful to be here and have the experience of earth school.

But I've never had the feeling that He wasn't aware of me or my situation or didn't care deeply. He just always seems close.

[wtfluff]

A related question I once asked myself:

Would I treat my own children the way mormon "god" treats his "children" (us)?


That's one big, giant NOPE! (Shelf cracks...)

[SaidNobody]

Praying, pleading, (as worded) is the spiritual equivalent of breathing.

Many years ago, before our ancestors could be called human, we didn't have mysterious questions. We didn't wonder what we did wrong, or how we could please the gods.

But then, then we noticed that lightning caused fire, and we wondered how? And then Hugg-nah-snooku spook angrily at the sky and suddenly a snake bit him. And we became suspicious of the sky.

And all of the fear and superstition developed a special space in the brain. The more attention we gave this fear and superstition the more powerful our imagination became. We could want things and our imagination could make it happen.

Just as virtual space and cyber space are both real and imaginary, spiritual space is real and imaginary. A church or faith is like a network or virtual community. The community can grow and the spiritual space develop if people keep engaged.

The spiritual space grows from love, the wanting of more. When you stop wanting of it,.......not sure what happens.

[Newme]

Praying, pleading, (as worded) is the spiritual equivalent of breathing.

Many years ago, before our ancestors could be called human, we didn't have mysterious questions. We didn't wonder what we did wrong, or how we could please the gods.

But then, then we noticed that lightning caused fire, and we wondered how? And then Hugg-nah-snooku spook angrily at the sky and suddenly a snake bit him. And we became suspicious of the sky.

And all of the fear and superstition developed a special space in the brain. The more attention we gave this fear and superstition the more powerful our imagination became. We could want things and our imagination could make it happen.

Just as virtual space and cyber space are both real and imaginary, spiritual space is real and imaginary. A church or faith is like a network or virtual community. The community can grow and the spiritual space develop if people keep engaged.

The spiritual space grows from love, the wanting of more. When you stop wanting of it,.......not sure what happens.

I’ve heard of God descibed many different ways, but one of the ones I personally like best is the idea that God is Love - pure love. And love really when it comes down to my understanding of it is largely based on my subjective interpretation of how I feel loved or love others. And I define love as appreciating what is while striving for what’s best.

Another idea of God that makes sense to me is “the kingdom of God is within you.” Of course how I sense or experience God is always within me - & within all.

It’s sad when I see Theists and Atheist define God as the most punitive tyrannical grandpa in the sky - even when that is both illogical & unhelpful spiritually. You’d think that after so many years, we would’ve outgrown such a need to assume the worst of God (GOoD). Then again, it took (& is taking) me a while to really get over such an ingrained myth.

[SaidNobody]

I’ve heard of God descibed many different ways, but one of the ones I personally like best is the idea that God is Love - pure love. And love really when it comes down to my understanding of it is largely based on my subjective interpretation of how I feel loved or love others. And I define love as appreciating what is while striving for what’s best.

Another idea of God that makes sense to me is “the kingdom of God is within you.” Of course how I sense or experience God is always within me - & within all.

It’s sad when I see Theists and Atheist define God as the most punitive tyrannical grandpa in the sky - even when that is both illogical & unhelpful spiritually. You’d think that after so many years, we would’ve outgrown such a need to assume the worst of God (GOoD). Then again, it took (& is taking) me a while to really get over such an ingrained myth.

Hey, newme

What is strange, is that in many ways, God is basically as described. But, in put in a more modern context, it is like having a network mode that connects you to life. As you develop your God, your connection to life deepens.

But like the internet, God is both personal and global. It is how we connect, it is our personal strength, but mostly it's our desire to connect with the universe.

[Newme]

Hey, newme

What is strange, is that in many ways, God is basically as described. But, in put in a more modern context, it is like having a network mode that connects you to life. As you develop your God, your connection to life deepens.

But like the internet, God is both personal and global. It is how we connect, it is our personal strength, but mostly it's our desire to connect with the universe.

God is such a subjective word - it really is like love - or beauty or truth - the interpretations are endless.

I like how you mentioned, "As you develop your God, your connection to life deepens....mostly it's our desire to connect with the universe."
I've been researching Carl Jung and collective unconscious. After witnessing the horrific insanity of Nazzis in WWII, he was motivated to understand why it happened - so it'd never happen again. He suggested that as people lost a belief in God (& also as industrialization drew people to big cities) - people tended to lose their sense of individuality & yet felt weak, so they looked for big groups (like the state) for their sense of power. But this power became corrupt - without morals without any spiritual "crutch" like religion.

It was interesting because I don't think Jung is really religious - yet he saw value in belief in God. I think he also pointed out the negative side of superstitions. The middle way seems to be most ideal... taking the good from religion without blindly accepting it 100%.

I'm curious - if it's not too personal & you want to share here - what are some ideas of the God you've developed/imagined?

[SaidNobody]

I'm curious - if it's not too personal & you want to share here - what are some ideas of the God you've developed/imagined?

Because God is infinite to me, I could give a thousand descriptions of God and they would be true for me.

1. God the Father. The mathematical law. Infinite, unchanging, and unbreakable.
2. God the Mother. Consciousness, a natural and eternal relationship to the Father.
3. God the Sun. The manifestation. The Sun isn't the whole truth, but rather just part of the truth. The Universe is sum zero.

Imagine a race car driver, and the car is accelerating from the starting line. In the first second, millions of different mathematical things are happening. Like as fuel pours into the injectors, the air pressure builds against the wind shield, the tires tear at the road, etc. God the Father inforces all of the relationships, God the Mother experiences all the equations/relationships. The Sun/Son is the result.

But, as the results evolve, more relationships are possible. Like iron and gold only came into existence after the first stars died and collapsed. The new materials allows new and more complex manifestations to happen. With the iron core of earth, a vast variety of things happened. Now with humans, new types of worlds are being created, like virtual space, cyberspace, etc. Non of which can exist without the imagination. New realms are being created, but there will always be the God model. The idea, the experience, and the result.

[LaMachina]

God is such a subjective word - it really is like love - or beauty or truth - the interpretations are endless.

Interesting. Are interpretations of love, beauty and, perhaps most importantly truth, infact endless? Seems to me they are all fairly limited and they perhaps should be. Narrow and straight is the way after all.

Because God is infinite to me, I could give a thousand descriptions of God and they would be true for me.

These ideas cause my brain to glitch just as much, if not moreso, than the often mocked "old man in the sky". An idea that has thousands or endless or infinite descriptions appears to rapidly lose meaning and seems to veer towards nonsense.

I don't begrudge you your beliefs at all but to me it seems to redefine god as nonsense (I mean no offense! My unenlightened brain just can't process it). We all search for meaning and I appreciate both of your searches for it. Personally I'm reminded of the tale of LaPlace and Napoleon (likely apocryphal but it still reflects my view), when it comes to God. Whether the descriptions are narrow or nebulous I find I no longer need to incorporate that hypothesis to derive meaning in my life.

[SaidNobody]

Whether the descriptions are narrow or nebulous I find I no longer need to incorporate that hypothesis to derive meaning in my life.

Meaning is a very personal thing. So is God.

I used to worry about my God being the True God, but then I realized that only I can come up with the True God. God is the definition of life, meaning, and the universe ......relative to me. Somewhere else, in some other star system, someone else has worked out a very good relationship with the universe and had meaning, filled with life. That doesn't help me much.

The universe is slightly different for everyone. So meaning will differ for everyone. There is, imho, no complete definition of the universe. Because the universe is both public, private, and shared space. Just like a private chatroom on the internet can provide a private world, so can the universe. Each world can have its own purpose.

So.....Meaning doesn't have to be defined by the world or space. We each bring our own meaning and purpose, that is blended with the purpose of the world. God on this world could literally be different than that of another world. The basics of physics might remain the same, but meaning doesn't have to be the same. Just like it varies from country to country.

[LaMachina]

Very interesting Saidnobody.

I agree, Meaning is intensely personal. I guess I'd push back on the idea that God, a being most religious people would claim exists outside of their own mind, can only be defined FOR you BY you. I've heard other enlightened spiritual people say the same sort of thing but how do you know your God that is entirely defined by yourself is not entirely of your own making and imagination?

And maybe it doesn't matter if he/she/it is entirely of your own making because in the same way I realize my Meaning is entirely of my own making. The difference is I would not claim that my meaning exists outside myself and while I can share it with others I would never expect it to govern others.

But perhaps you feel the same way about God?

[SaidNobody]

Very interesting Saidnobody.

I agree, Meaning is intensely personal. I guess I'd push back on the idea that God, a being most religious people would claim exists outside of their own mind, can only be defined FOR you BY you. I've heard other enlightened spiritual people say the same sort of thing but how do you know your God that is entirely defined by yourself is not entirely of your own making and imagination?

And maybe it doesn't matter if he/she/it is entirely of your own making because in the same way I realize my Meaning is entirely of my own making. The difference is I would not claim that my meaning exists outside myself and while I can share it with others I would never expect it to govern others.

But perhaps you feel the same way about God?

Personally, I don't think there is much original thought. And my God isn't completely of my understanding. My father first taught me about God and that version still has some meaning to me. I am Christian because I can use many of the symbols to describe my ideas. Meaning is also given to me through culture. Like being a father, it's one of the greatest sources of meaning in my life. My children are step children and adopted which is something that wouldn't exist without. I follow the prescription of the father role to best of my ability and only deviate a little off what might be considered "standard dad."

Most of what is meaningful to me is provided by our culture, but, that I find it meaningful is personal. The role of dad is available to almost anyone that isn't disqualified and that wants it.

I have some meaning to life that might be original, and I have views of God that might be unique, but mostly it comes from the American/Mormon structure..... And little bits other cultures.

But, what we understand, what we embrace, what we seek must come from a personal place, eventually. We might be sheep for a while, but at some point, we seek a god of our understanding. Some embrace what is given and make it personal, without really thinking about it. But eventually, life challenges us and must find a more personal version of God.

So, maybe I should say that God is personal to me, even though I use many common symbols.

[SaidNobody]

Very interesting Saidnobody.

I agree, Meaning is intensely personal. I guess I'd push back on the idea that God, a being most religious people would claim exists outside of their own mind, can only be defined FOR you BY you. I've heard other enlightened spiritual people say the same sort of thing but how do you know your God that is entirely defined by yourself is not entirely of your own making and imagination?

And maybe it doesn't matter if he/she/it is entirely of your own making because in the same way I realize my Meaning is entirely of my own making. The difference is I would not claim that my meaning exists outside myself and while I can share it with others I would never expect it to govern others.

But perhaps you feel the same way about God?

Personally, I don't think there is much original thought. And my God isn't completely of my understanding. My father first taught me about God and that version still has some meaning to me. I am Christian because I can use many of the symbols to describe my ideas. Meaning is also given to me through culture. Like being a father, it's one of the greatest sources of meaning in my life. My children are step children and adopted which is something that wouldn't exist without culture. I follow the prescription of the father role to the best of my ability and only deviate a little off what might be considered "standard dad."

Most of what is meaningful to me is provided by our culture, but, that I find it meaningful is personal. The role of dad is available to almost anyone that isn't disqualified and that wants it.

I have some meaning to life that might be original, and I have views of God that might be unique, but mostly it comes from the American/Mormon structure..... And little bits other cultures.

But, what we understand, what we embrace, what we seek must come from a personal place, eventually. We might be sheep for a while, but at some point, we seek a god of our understanding. Some embrace what is given and make it personal, without really thinking about it. But eventually, life challenges us and must find a more personal version of God.

So, maybe I should say that God is personal to me, even though I use many common symbols.