Why no children from JS plural marriages?

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LostGirl
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Why no children from JS plural marriages?

Post by LostGirl » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:21 am

Maybe I'm just in a strange frame of mind but I read this in "Origins of power" and thought - no wonder he didn't have piles of kids with all those wives - he was pretty busy!
By 1844 Nauvoo had the appearance of Smith’s personal theocracy. Since May 1842 he had served concurrently as LDS church president, as trustee-in-trust for church finances, as Nauvoo mayor (to replace Bennett), as chief justice of Nauvoo’s municipal court , and as lieutenant general and commanding officer of the Nauvoo Legion. By the end of 1842 the prophet was also an applicant to become postmaster. In 1843 Smith was reelected mayor “by unanimous vote,” and he also became a member of the newly organized board of health. In addition, since March 1842 he was registrar of deeds, a position and function not authorized in Illinois law or the Nauvoo Charter.

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1smartdodog
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Re: Why no children from JS plural marriages?

Post by 1smartdodog » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:37 am

No children that we know of.
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Re: Why no children from JS plural marriages?

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:26 am

Some say it's because Dr. Bennett had a coat hanger.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: Why no children from JS plural marriages?

Post by MerrieMiss » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:37 am

Years ago I did a lot of reading about the Oneida Community. Religion and Sexuality By Lawrence Foster was an interesting read, focusing on the Shakers, Oneida Community, and Mormons.

From Wikipedia on the use of birth control in the Oneida Community:
To control reproduction within the Oneida community, a system of male continence or coitus reservatus was enacted.[13] Noyes decided that sexual intercourse served two distinct purposes. The primary purpose was social satisfaction, "to allow the sexes to communicate and express affection for one another".[14] The second purpose was procreation. Of around two hundred adults using male continence as birth control, there were twelve unplanned births within Oneida between 1848 and 1868.[14] Young men were introduced to male continence by women who were post-menopause, and young women were introduced by experienced, older males.[15]:18
From NYhistory.com:
Another teaching practiced at the Oneida Community was that of "Male Continence," which was a type of birth control. In the practice of Male Continence, "a couple would engage in sexual congress without the man ever ejaculating, either during intercourse or after withdrawal." Noyes justified this practice because his wife Harriet in the first six years of their marriage had five difficult childbirths, four of which were premature and resulted in the deaths of the children. Noyes came to the conclusion that where an unwanted pregnancy occurred, there was a waste of the man's seed and that it was no different in practice to masturbation. With the implementation of Male Continence, which lasted from 1848 to 1868, some forty children were born in the community of about two hundred and fifty people.

Another teaching practiced along these same lines was that of "Ascending Fellowship." Ascending Fellowship was set up to properly introduce the virgins into Complex Marriage. This practice also worked to prevent the young members from falling in love with each other and from limiting their range of affection to just the younger members. The main people picked to care for the virgins were people who were considered to be closer to God. These people were of course older and had a special title which was that of Central Member. These Central Members were allowed their pick of a partner over which they would have the responsibility of spiritual guidance. It usually worked that the male Central Member would pick any female virgin of his choice. Due to her lower order, she was compelled to accept. In the case of the female Central Member, they were usually past the age of menopause, and when they chose their male virgin, they were obligated to honor the request. The reason women past menopause were chosen was so that as they taught the younger men Male Continence, they would not have to worry about unwanted pregnancies.
Another interesting read is The Alcotts by Madelon Bedell. It is unfortunate she died before completing Volume II. While not about any religion specifically, it details the lives of the Alcotts and explores 19th century ideas, philosophy, communal experiments, and etc. along the way. She notes:
Several methods of crude but effective birth control were in use then, especially among the middle and upper classes, including the condom, the pessary, and the rhythm method. Since Dr. William Alcott, Bronson's cousin, was among those advocating birth control, it is reasonable to assume that the Alcotts employed some of these techniques.
The idea that Joseph Smith had no way to prevent pregnancies is ridiculous.

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Re: Why no children from JS plural marriages?

Post by Rob4Hope » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:59 am

A couple of the books out there reference Bennett as having abortion instruments and using them....

I have to say, when I read that and for a moment considered the implications, it made my stomach sick. If true, the hypocrisy knows no bounds...

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Hagoth
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Re: Why no children from JS plural marriages?

Post by Hagoth » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:19 pm

I think this is the best argument against the idea of Joseph being a real polygamist with benefits.

The problem is that his wives have testified otherwise. Some apologists claim that the wive's testimonies were coerced by Brigham Young. My response to that is that we must be in the wrong branch of the church if we follow the man who definitely DID have sex with multiple teenagers and other men's wives - as he claims he was instructed to do by Joseph - AND forced virtuous women to lie about having sex with a virtuous prophet.
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Give It Time
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Re: Why no children from JS plural marriages?

Post by Give It Time » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:37 pm

In addition to abortions, a lot of pregnancies resulted in miscarriages and a lot of babies didn't survive past infancy. It's possible there were descendants, they just didn't live long enough to produce progeny.

However, personal DNA sampling is on the scene. Things could get interesting.
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Re: Why no children from JS plural marriages?

Post by Palerider » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:38 pm

As familiar as Joseph was with the Bible, I figured practicing Onanism (spilling his seed) was probably his preferred method.
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Silver Girl
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Re: Why no children from JS plural marriages?

Post by Silver Girl » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:27 pm

.
I believe Bennett the abortionist was put to use very frequently. This book is available on the Wayback Machine (Archive) - it has source material about Joseph Smith through interviews with his contemporaries. The link here should open to pages 58 & 59. If you read the bottom of page 59 and continue to page 60, you'll see abortion mentioned. The quotes sound like late-term abortions, not early term. Pretty grim stuff.

https://archive.org/details/josephsmithproph01wyme

The book is Joseph Smith, the prophet, his family and his friends. It was published in 1886, and was written by Wilhelm Ritter von Wymetal. The source of this copy looks very credible.
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Re: Why no children from JS plural marriages?

Post by Rob4Hope » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:23 pm

Silver Girl wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:27 pm
.
I believe Bennett the abortionist was put to use very frequently. This book is available on the Wayback Machine (Archive) - it has source material about Joseph Smith through interviews with his contemporaries. The link here should open to pages 58 & 59. If you read the bottom of page 59 and continue to page 60, you'll see abortion mentioned. The quotes sound like late-term abortions, not early term. Pretty grim stuff.

https://archive.org/details/josephsmithproph01wyme

The book is Joseph Smith, the prophet, his family and his friends. It was published in 1886, and was written by Wilhelm Ritter von Wymetal. The source of this copy looks very credible.
Yep...good find Silver Girl. This is ASTONISHING! If even a tiny portion of this is true, what a BLACK and EVIL wolf in sheep's clothing!

You know...its off topic, but Quinn talked about the magic parchments Joseph and Hyrum prized, as well as the treasure digging, magic dagger, divining rods of the Cowdry's, and even the story of animal sacrifice among others. The guys character was questionable.

The TBM perspective is to say it was all lies. And yet, the desire to hide, omit and suppress history speaks to other motives.

Interesting.....

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redjay
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Re: Why no children from JS plural marriages?

Post by redjay » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:13 am

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:19 pm
. My response to that is that we must be in the wrong branch of the church if we follow the man who definitely DID have sex with multiple teenagers and other men's wives - as he claims he was instructed to do by Joseph - AND forced virtuous women to lie about having sex with a virtuous prophet.
Exactly. My biggest shelf cracker after BofA.

Leaving the morality of polygamy aside. It's the lies that really condemn the practice. If joseph practiced polygamy, and he lied about it and denied it, i have no trust in him or his church, if Joseph did not practice polygamy and Brigham lied saying Joseph did, then i have no trust in Brigham or his church. Therefore it really is checkmate. Either the root is rotten and so must be the branch, or the root was good but the branch was rotten; either way we are on a rotten branch

A quick read of the Navou Expositor tells me polygamy and deceit were going on during Joseph's time. As attractive as it is to me to believe that Joseph was noble and good, and he was a prophet (adding some support to my former testimony and way of life for decades), the truth is that isodes like Fanny Alger, the failed selling of the copyright to the BoM, Zelph amd so forth, makes me think he really thought that anything that came into his head was inspired - including spiritual wifery, polygamy, polyandry, concubines or whatever.

Either way logic concludes the LDS church is beat, and has no moral authority when it comes to defining marriage practices.
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Give It Time
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Re: Why no children from JS plural marriages?

Post by Give It Time » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:49 am

Hagoth wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:19 pm
I think this is the best argument against the idea of Joseph being a real polygamist with benefits.

The problem is that his wives have testified otherwise. Some apologists claim that the wive's testimonies were coerced by Brigham Young. My response to that is that we must be in the wrong branch of the church if we follow the man who definitely DID have sex with multiple teenagers and other men's wives - as he claims he was instructed to do by Joseph - AND forced virtuous women to lie about having sex with a virtuous prophet.

I've thought this, as well. At first, they refused to believe that Joseph was polygamous, but in the face of overwhelming evidence, they conceded. They also outrightly disavowed it. It's my understanding that they don't consider any post-1831 revelation of Joseph's to be valid. Word of Wisdom came forth in 1833. Since WofW was to simultaneously placate and punish Emma and CofC is Emma's branch, I'm presently wondering if Emma considered WofW a burr under her collar. Regardless, look at the mess they avoided by invalidating that. Then there is giving women the priesthood. That was a huge gamble. The initial response lost them a lot of members. However, I'll bet long term, it will prove to be inspired.

Having written this, it seems these followers of Joseph did the right thing by basically drawing a line of their following Joseph very early in his career. It's a pretty good illustration how staying with men like him, people like him, only shows the situation gets worse over time and not better.

What a perfect example of the fallacy of faith in the face of mistreatment.
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Re: Why no children from JS plural marriages?

Post by AllieOop » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:51 am

Give It Time wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:37 pm
In addition to abortions, a lot of pregnancies resulted in miscarriages and a lot of babies didn't survive past infancy. It's possible there were descendants, they just didn't live long enough to produce progeny.
Joseph also married the majority of his wives within just a few years of each other. He had to sneak around (behind Emma's and other's backs) to be able to sleep with any of them. So, he may have slept with some of them only once, twice or a few times. Of course that still could have resulted in pregnancies, but there were methods of birth control even back then.

As far as abortions being performed by Bennett, even Hyrum Smith made a statement about that.

Here are the references to abortions being performed in Nauvoo that I have:
The folowing is an affidavit given by Hyrum Smith (Official History of the Church, Vol. 5, p.71):

[Dr. Bennett] endeavoured to seduce them, and accomplished his designs by saying it was right; that it was one of the mysteries of God, which was to be revealed when the people was strong enough in faith to bear such mysteries—that it was perfectly right to have illicit intercourse with females, providing no one knew it but themselves, vehemently trying them from day to day, to yield to his passions, bringing witnesses of his own clan to testify that there were such revelations and such commandments, and that they were of God; also stating that he would be responsible for their sins, if there were any, and that he would give them medicine to produce abortions, provided they should become pregnant.
Here is information given by Ebenezer Robinson with reference to "possible" abortions (Ebenezer Robinson to Jason W. Briggs, Jan. 28, 1880, LDS archives.):

LDS Elder Ebenezer Robinson testified that Hyrum Smith "instructed me in Nov or Dec 1843 to make a selection of some young woman and he would seal her to me, and I should take her home," he recalled, "and if she should have an offspring give out word that she had a husband, an Elder, who had gone on a foreign mission." Possibly referring to a secluded birthplace, or conceivably to abortion, Robinson spoke of "a place appointed in Iowa, 12 or 18 miles from Nauvoo to send female victims to his polygamous births."
Zeruiah Goddard claimed Bennett told Sarah Pratt "that he could cause abortion with perfect safety to the mother at any stage of pregnancy, and that he had frequently destroyed and removed infants before their time to prevent exposure of the parties, and that he had instruments for that purpose."[10] If the women refused, Bennett stated that he came with Joseph's approval.[26] Sarah Pratt herself recounted an incident in which

“[Bennett was en route to do] "a little job for Joseph [because] one of his women was in trouble." Saying this, he took [out] a pretty long instrument of a kind I had never seen before. It seemed to be of steel and was crooked at one end. I heard afterwards that the operation had been performed; that the woman was very sick, and that Joseph was very much afraid that she might die, but she
Sarah Pratt claimed to have told Joseph Smith III (when he came to visit her with questions about his father's polygamy) this:

I saw that he was not inclined to believe the truth about his father, so I said to him: 'You pretend to have revelations from the Lord. Why don't you ask the Lord to tell you what kind of a man your father really was?' He answered: 'If my father had so many connections with women, where is the progeny?' I said to him: 'Your father had mostly intercourse with married women, and as to single ones, Dr. Bennett was always on hand, when anything happened.
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Hagoth
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Re: Why no children from JS plural marriages?

Post by Hagoth » Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:05 am

AllieOop wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:51 am
The folowing is an affidavit given by Hyrum Smith (Official History of the Church, Vol. 5, p.71):

[Dr. Bennett] endeavoured to seduce them, and accomplished his designs by saying it was right; that it was one of the mysteries of God, which was to be revealed when the people was strong enough in faith to bear such mysteries—that it was perfectly right to have illicit intercourse with females, providing no one knew it but themselves, vehemently trying them from day to day, to yield to his passions, bringing witnesses of his own clan to testify that there were such revelations and such commandments, and that they were of God; also stating that he would be responsible for their sins,...
Hmmm. If you changed the name to Joseph you would have a precise description of the Prophet's MO.
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Re: Why no children from JS plural marriages?

Post by nibbler » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:25 pm

It's that much harder to hide polygamy when polygamy is producing children. Other leaders were practicing polygamy before the move out west, right? How many children did they have? I think the children only came after they started practicing polygamy in public.
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Hagoth
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Re: Why no children from JS plural marriages?

Post by Hagoth » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:11 pm

So apologist and historians are pretty much in agreement that Bennett was practicing "spiritual wifery" without Joseph's permission. Are there any statistics of how many children, if any, those unions produced? How about William Smith, who was also called out for unauthorized womanizing?
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SaidNobody
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Re: Why no children from JS plural marriages?

Post by SaidNobody » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:00 pm

Ahmed's Razor I think suggests that they weren't his wives.

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Re: Why no children from JS plural marriages?

Post by Jeffret » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:03 pm

SaidNobody wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:00 pm
Ahmed's Razor I think suggests that they weren't his wives.
Who's Ahmed and what's he doing with his razor?
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SaidNobody
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Re: Why no children from JS plural marriages?

Post by SaidNobody » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:26 pm

Ahmed's Razor is the religious version of Occam's Razor, except that Ahmed doesn't shave.

Point is, all the "evidence" that these women were married to JS comes through BY, but was denied by JS and ES in public statements.

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Re: Why no children from JS plural marriages?

Post by AllieOop » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:11 am

SaidNobody wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:26 pm
Point is, all the "evidence" that these women were married to JS comes through BY,....
That's not correct. There are many first hand accounts and testimonies by Joseph's wives regarding their sealings/marriages to Joseph. There are also other contemporary writings and sources that give information about his plural marriages and wives as well (William Clayton's Nauvoo journals are a great source).
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