Would JS be a porn addict?

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Jeffret
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Re: Would JS be a porn addict?

Post by Jeffret » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:10 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:07 am
I conceded it not really possible to speculate about that period of time, because the daguerreotype was pretty new, and porn wasn't highly available.
Don't mistake the medium for the thing. Porn has been around for a long, long time. The media have been varied and changed with technologies, but the essence of what porn is goes way, way back. It's possible porn was the world's third oldest profession.

"Fight the New Drug" is totally wrong. Okay, maybe the "the" part isn't wrong by itself, but the rest of it is totally wrong.

Porn bears no relationship to a drug. That's one of the biggest reasons why it isn't classified as an addiction in the DSM. It's not a drug. It has no chemical composition. It's not even really a thing, in any sense. Porn users demonstrate only peripheral similarities to the variety of drug users. It is extremely culturally dependent.

There is nothing new about it. It goes way, way back. At least to our human ancestor's earliest abilities to understand a representation of a thing as a thing. What, you think all of those "old master's" paintings and sculptures that we admire today were created for totally pure reasons? Or those fertility god and goddess representations?

And fighting it is totally the wrong thing to do. By fighting it, you recognize it as a powerful enemy. In a fight you've got to have an opponent. That can mean creating one where one didn't exist. In many cases by fighting it one creates the enemy, in themself, and then fights against themself. It's a losing proposition. And very poor therapeutic approach.


Besides these basic problems, where there really is a problem, it is much more complicated and involved than the Church or FtND recognize or admit. They're only really good at recognizing or dealing with the simple stuff and they get that totally wrong, fabricating it out of thin air in many cases.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Jeffret
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Re: Would JS be a porn addict?

Post by Jeffret » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:13 pm

It's kind of like how every generation seems to think that it invented sex, when the evidence is pretty clear that it's been around for a long time.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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LaMachina
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Re: Would JS be a porn addict?

Post by LaMachina » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:40 pm

You know, the current social media phenomenon #Me too and the roe over Harvey Weinstein's disgusting attempts to take advantage of women has made me realize something. Joe Smith and his sexually predatory ways would fit in just fine in any era with or without internet pornography.

Whether it's lecherous Hollywood producers, or a gang of men in India, or an overly entitled athlete, or the frigging President of the United States, all the way down to some random teenager who think a girl "owes" him something...what the hell are we doing in 2017??

I'm a man. I have daughters. I understand how people find porn problematic but I'm in agreement with Jeffret. Porn is not the problem. But obviously something is wrong and it's been wrong for a long, long time.

What exactly is it?? Again, I'm a man. I like women. I like boobs. I've seen pornography. I think I have a healthy sex drive although perhaps it's been slightly messed up or repressed (thanks Mormon upbringing!). But I don't believe I have ever sexually harassed anyone? I have certainly never groped a woman or raped one or suggested God commanded one to sleep with me. Although, maybe I'm blind to the ways I've made women uncomfortable...

Why is Joseph just another in a long line of skeevy perverts who try to justify their philanderings? I'm assuming it comes down to male role-modeling? I decry my Mormon upbringing but my father, while certainly tinged with a bit of chauvinism, was a very honorable and respectful person. He did not tolerate the belittling or abuse of women.

But I don't know...apologies for the rant. Just feeling a tad pessimistic for my children's future relationships even though I find most of the younger generation much more enlightened about this sort of stuff. Allow me to offer a pitiful and useless apology on behalf of the pigs of my gender. Just know going forward I will not be silent in the face of this crap.

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Would JS be a porn addict?

Post by Rob4Hope » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:03 pm

Jeff,...nice info posts--thank you.

On one side we have the scientific end of things with diagnoses and so forth and a reluctance to categorize something like "porn addiction", and on the other we have this MASSIVE LDS (and other right wing groups) push to define those who look at porn as addicts. The position of the LDS faith is that addiction is rampant, not just porn, but porn being the big one.

I learned a few years back that if you are an employee in the CES, if you look at porn ONE TIME, you are in serious trouble. Its that strictly monitored,...which means you probably have a lot of lying going on: I really don't know.

True to form, and part of why I started this thread, is because it FASCINATES me how far the pendulum can swing from one extreme to another in the LDS tradition. At one time you have GAs decrying adultery and fornication, stating in multiple places and very clearly that polygamy is the answer to these problems. In most of those sermons, I don't think there was much with regards to using the "sexual brakes" mentioned. Then half a century later, and especially during the anti-contraception haydays, you have the pendulum swinging back the other direction. If you look at porn you are an addict and need the church's 12 step program, or to visit your bishop...and if you are a CES member, loose your job!

whiplash...man....whiplash!

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LaMachina
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Re: Would JS be a porn addict?

Post by LaMachina » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:31 am

Personally I don't think the gulf between Joseph's and Brigham's polygamous communes and the modern church's modesy fetish is as wide as it appears. I think they are just two sides of the same damn coin.

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Re: Would JS be a porn addict?

Post by Thoughtful » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:45 pm

LaMachina wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:31 am
Personally I don't think the gulf between Joseph's and Brigham's polygamous communes and the modern church's modesy fetish is as wide as it appears. I think they are just two sides of the same damn coin.
Yep. Own and control women's sexuality as a possession with which to exalt men.

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Re: Would JS be a porn addict?

Post by Rob4Hope » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:50 am

I don't know how many women are on this site...but there are a few.

Any women want to weigh in on their perspective on being a sexual possession as a kindof pseudo doctrine in the LDS church?

I know some women (not on this site) who have felt that way, and it infuriates them. It also makes them angry that the extreme stereotype of asexual angel or whore have been taught covertly to them. The ladies I've talked to have felt dehumanized. It subtle, but there, and the disparity of power contributes right into that mess.

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alas
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Re: Would JS be a porn addict?

Post by alas » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:18 am

Jeffret wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:13 pm
It's kind of like how every generation seems to think that it invented sex, when the evidence is pretty clear that it's been around for a long time.
This and the idea of each generation thinking it invented porn reminded me of a funny story. We went to church in a small Hawaiian branch, and I overheard two of the ladies laughing about their children who thought that mom & dad would not recognize swear words in the Hawaiian language, so having these "new" words that obviously old fuddyduddies would not recognize, they felt free to swear in front of mom & dad, then were shocked when they got in trouble.

Oh, in the old city of Pompeii, we went with a tour through a rich man's large mansion, and one room had erect penises painted on the walls, as well as some other pictures that qualify as porn.

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Would JS be a porn addict?

Post by Rob4Hope » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:03 pm

OK...so there has been porn for a while--not necessarily as much visual material, but its out there.

JS was clear that the Song of Solomon was NOT an inspired book (so he said). I wonder what went through his mind when he read it. Hunh...will never know.

I do remember a book about a "Fanny Hill"....written in 1749 (I Googled it). Its total porn. JS certainly had access to lots of books and such, including things that influenced the BoM writing. Its speculation again, but it would be interesting to know if that book was anywhere around where JS grew up, in the libraries and things out there.

I remember reading in Quinn's Magic World View book the ASTONISHING amount of printed material available to the Smith family in the area where they lived. Those people were NOT in want of books....of all kinds. And esoteric books of all types discussing treasure digging techniques, spiritualism, incantations and astrology, etc. were in abundance.

It would be interesting to see if some of these other type of books were also in those areas.

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Re: Would JS be a porn addict?

Post by Thoughtful » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:12 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:50 am
I don't know how many women are on this site...but there are a few.

Any women want to weigh in on their perspective on being a sexual possession as a kindof pseudo doctrine in the LDS church?

I know some women (not on this site) who have felt that way, and it infuriates them. It also makes them angry that the extreme stereotype of asexual angel or whore have been taught covertly to them. The ladies I've talked to have felt dehumanized. It subtle, but there, and the disparity of power contributes right into that mess.
Yes, it's infuriating.

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moksha
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Re: Would JS be a porn addict?

Post by moksha » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:26 am

Rob4Hope wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:03 pm
JS was clear that the Song of Solomon was NOT an inspired book (so he said).
Joseph was simply noting that this beautiful poetic song did not contain the phrase "It came to pass..."

My guess is that Joseph Smith would have been a big fan of Walt Whitman's Song of Myself.

"I speak the password primeval. I give the sign of democracy." That sign BTW (AKA the sure sign of democracy) is made with raising your right hand to the square, moving your elbow towards your back, and then resting your hand on your head with your fingers making a fluttering motion. Try it, you'll like it.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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GoodBoy
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Re: Would JS be a porn addict?

Post by GoodBoy » Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:46 am

Maybe if Joseph would have had porn and some lube he would have had a harmless avenue to dissipate his immense sexual energy instead of inventing revelations from God that ended up ruining peoples lives in his day and thousands of lives for hundreds of years to come.
Always been the good kid, but I wanted to know more, and to find and test truth.

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alas
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Re: Would JS be a porn addict?

Post by alas » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:55 pm

GoodBoy wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:46 am
Maybe if Joseph would have had porn and some lube he would have had a harmless avenue to dissipate his immense sexual energy instead of inventing revelations from God that ended up ruining peoples lives in his day and thousands of lives for hundreds of years to come.
Unfortunately, with sexual predators, it is not the sex, it is the hunt and conquest. So, porn and lube would not have changed a thing. Besides, you think Emma turned him down? No, he was a sexual predator, and with them it is not having women and plenty of sex. It is the power of being able to get the women/girls to agree to have sex, consummating the conquest, and moving onto the next victim. There is also some aditional excitement with the social unacceptability of it. Think of some of the sexual predators in the news now. Let's pick on Bill rather than Donald. Bill Cosby could have gone to bed with thousands of his adoring fans, they would have been willing. But where is the fun of that? No, he wanted the challenge of picking someone less willing, then drugging her, and having sex. It was the conquest of the whole thing. Groupies are too willing, too easy. Need the challenge and thrill of someone less willing, and the risk of seeing how much you can get away with. See, no one wants to shoot fish in a barrel, too easy. Joseph needed the thrill of doing it with Emma's best friends, with foster daughters that Emma loved, and doing it often with Emma right in the house so he had the thrill of almost being caught. Joseph's sexual predation was all about Emma, else why did he always seem to pick women she cared about. He liked the double betrayal of doing her best friend, so not only he betrayed Emma, but the friend did too.

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Re: Would JS be a porn addict?

Post by Josephsmith » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:03 pm

alas wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:55 pm
GoodBoy wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:46 am
Maybe if Joseph would have had porn and some lube he would have had a harmless avenue to dissipate his immense sexual energy instead of inventing revelations from God that ended up ruining peoples lives in his day and thousands of lives for hundreds of years to come.
Unfortunately, with sexual predators, it is not the sex, it is the hunt and conquest. So, porn and lube would not have changed a thing. Besides, you think Emma turned him down? No, he was a sexual predator, and with them it is not having women and plenty of sex. It is the power of being able to get the women/girls to agree to have sex, consummating the conquest, and moving onto the next victim. There is also some aditional excitement with the social unacceptability of it. Think of some of the sexual predators in the news now. Let's pick on Bill rather than Donald. Bill Cosby could have gone to bed with thousands of his adoring fans, they would have been willing. But where is the fun of that? No, he wanted the challenge of picking someone less willing, then drugging her, and having sex. It was the conquest of the whole thing. Groupies are too willing, too easy. Need the challenge and thrill of someone less willing, and the risk of seeing how much you can get away with. See, no one wants to shoot fish in a barrel, too easy. Joseph needed the thrill of doing it with Emma's best friends, with foster daughters that Emma loved, and doing it often with Emma right in the house so he had the thrill of almost being caught. Joseph's sexual predation was all about Emma, else why did he always seem to pick women she cared about. He liked the double betrayal of doing her best friend, so not only he betrayed Emma, but the friend did too.
I agree with alas. There has been a lot of good discussion here but really, I didnt need it.

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Give It Time
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Re: Would JS be a porn addict?

Post by Give It Time » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:18 pm

Josephsmith wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:03 pm
alas wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:55 pm
GoodBoy wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:46 am
Maybe if Joseph would have had porn and some lube he would have had a harmless avenue to dissipate his immense sexual energy instead of inventing revelations from God that ended up ruining peoples lives in his day and thousands of lives for hundreds of years to come.
Unfortunately, with sexual predators, it is not the sex, it is the hunt and conquest. So, porn and lube would not have changed a thing. Besides, you think Emma turned him down? No, he was a sexual predator, and with them it is not having women and plenty of sex. It is the power of being able to get the women/girls to agree to have sex, consummating the conquest, and moving onto the next victim. There is also some aditional excitement with the social unacceptability of it. Think of some of the sexual predators in the news now. Let's pick on Bill rather than Donald. Bill Cosby could have gone to bed with thousands of his adoring fans, they would have been willing. But where is the fun of that? No, he wanted the challenge of picking someone less willing, then drugging her, and having sex. It was the conquest of the whole thing. Groupies are too willing, too easy. Need the challenge and thrill of someone less willing, and the risk of seeing how much you can get away with. See, no one wants to shoot fish in a barrel, too easy. Joseph needed the thrill of doing it with Emma's best friends, with foster daughters that Emma loved, and doing it often with Emma right in the house so he had the thrill of almost being caught. Joseph's sexual predation was all about Emma, else why did he always seem to pick women she cared about. He liked the double betrayal of doing her best friend, so not only he betrayed Emma, but the friend did too.
I agree with alas. There has been a lot of good discussion here but really, I didnt need it.
Okay. Well. This was triggering. I'm not sure if it's in a good way or bad. I'm currently choosing to tone down the amount of attention I pay to it. I will say, "welcome, Brother Joseph". You add an interesting dynamic.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Would JS be a porn addict?

Post by Rob4Hope » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:54 pm

The way JS treated Emma makes me angry. The way the church has portrayed and lied about their relationship, even making it into this fantasy loving relationship makes me MORE ANGRY.

I heard Grant Palmer explain some history from Section 132 about Emma's understanding of the phrase she would be destroyed. She, according to Grant, was afraid for her life. In the context of some of the statements above, JS was not only a predator, he threatened the life of his legal wife. This is an evil man.

And the LDS church believes God commanded JS to do all of this?

Its abuse and a cult of denial. Everyone in power keeps Joseph's "dirty little secret". How revolting!

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Re: Would JS be a porn addict?

Post by Give It Time » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:12 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:54 pm
The way JS treated Emma makes me angry. The way the church has portrayed and lied about their relationship, even making it into this fantasy loving relationship makes me MORE ANGRY.

I heard Grant Palmer explain some history from Section 132 about Emma's understanding of the phrase she would be destroyed. She, according to Grant, was afraid for her life. In the context of some of the statements above, JS was not only a predator, he threatened the life of his legal wife. This is an evil man.

And the LDS church believes God commanded JS to do all of this?

Its abuse and a cult of denial. Everyone in power keeps Joseph's "dirty little secret". How revolting!
This makes sense to me. I told my former bishop that his supporting my abusive ex was tantamount to condoning murder. The bishop didn't blink. He was completely unfazed. No wonder. We've been doing this a very long time.

[Yes, I know I complain about how this bishop shut me out. However, I'm beginning to look on all this, the bishop shutting me out, the ward not really accepting me, as blessed. It'll make leaving easier and that much easier to keep where I move confidential information.]
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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alas
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Re: Would JS be a porn addict?

Post by alas » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:15 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:54 pm
The way JS treated Emma makes me angry. The way the church has portrayed and lied about their relationship, even making it into this fantasy loving relationship makes me MORE ANGRY.

I heard Grant Palmer explain some history from Section 132 about Emma's understanding of the phrase she would be destroyed. She, according to Grant, was afraid for her life. In the context of some of the statements above, JS was not only a predator, he threatened the life of his legal wife. This is an evil man.

And the LDS church believes God commanded JS to do all of this?

Its abuse and a cult of denial. Everyone in power keeps Joseph's "dirty little secret". How revolting!
You know, I wrote what I did about Joseph purposely sleeping with women that Emma loved just kind of off the top of my head, only realizing it kind of as I was writing about predators. But then I got thinking. I worked professionally with domestic I violence victims, had several who were at times afraid for their lives, had been beaten so bad they were hospitalized, broken bones, bla bla bla. After a while, one gets jaded, like my brother who is an emergency room doctor, and talks about blood and gore like people talk about lunch. Anyway, I have heard it all, seen much of it as I was called to the hospital twice to be with clients who had been badly beaten. Anyway, in my time working with domestic violence, the women got so nothing the man could do could hurt them anymore, they were just sort of numb. But part of domestic violence is the abuser proving that he can still get his victim to react with pain because the pain she feels is his proof that she cares about him and how he treats her. It is sort of like proof she loves him when she reacts with hurt. So, this is why things escalate. The abuser is like an addict who needs bigger and bigger hits, and his partner's emotional pain is the proof she cares for him.

So, in all the numb women I saw who were sort of past feeling anything, there were a few who talked about what was the thing he did that hurt the most. And that biggest emotional betrayal was sleeping with her best friend. It not only was him treating her like dirt, but he got her best friend to betray her trust also. Double whammy. Worst thing an abuser could do was get her best friend in on abusing her by sleeping with the best friend.

And Joseph did that with most if not all of the women Emma got close to. It was like telling her that no one would be loyal and she could not trust anyone. It was a huge power trip for him.

It sort of blows my mind how he isolated her by sleeping with her friends.

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Re: Would JS be a porn addict?

Post by Give It Time » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:17 am

alas wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:15 pm
Rob4Hope wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:54 pm
The way JS treated Emma makes me angry. The way the church has portrayed and lied about their relationship, even making it into this fantasy loving relationship makes me MORE ANGRY.

I heard Grant Palmer explain some history from Section 132 about Emma's understanding of the phrase she would be destroyed. She, according to Grant, was afraid for her life. In the context of some of the statements above, JS was not only a predator, he threatened the life of his legal wife. This is an evil man.

And the LDS church believes God commanded JS to do all of this?

Its abuse and a cult of denial. Everyone in power keeps Joseph's "dirty little secret". How revolting!
You know, I wrote what I did about Joseph purposely sleeping with women that Emma loved just kind of off the top of my head, only realizing it kind of as I was writing about predators. But then I got thinking. I worked professionally with domestic I violence victims, had several who were at times afraid for their lives, had been beaten so bad they were hospitalized, broken bones, bla bla bla. After a while, one gets jaded, like my brother who is an emergency room doctor, and talks about blood and gore like people talk about lunch. Anyway, I have heard it all, seen much of it as I was called to the hospital twice to be with clients who had been badly beaten. Anyway, in my time working with domestic violence, the women got so nothing the man could do could hurt them anymore, they were just sort of numb. But part of domestic violence is the abuser proving that he can still get his victim to react with pain because the pain she feels is his proof that she cares about him and how he treats her. It is sort of like proof she loves him when she reacts with hurt. So, this is why things escalate. The abuser is like an addict who needs bigger and bigger hits, and his partner's emotional pain is the proof she cares for him.

So, in all the numb women I saw who were sort of past feeling anything, there were a few who talked about what was the thing he did that hurt the most. And that biggest emotional betrayal was sleeping with her best friend. It not only was him treating her like dirt, but he got her best friend to betray her trust also. Double whammy. Worst thing an abuser could do was get her best friend in on abusing her by sleeping with the best friend.

And Joseph did that with most if not all of the women Emma got close to. It was like telling her that no one would be loyal and she could not trust anyone. It was a huge power trip for him.

It sort of blows my mind how he isolated her by sleeping with her friends.
This is the first time I've come across this, also. I think you've really hit on something. I've been told the first thing an abuser does is isolate his victim. Interesting to see it's actually an ongoing process. You are right about the abuser causing the hurt, because it's proof the person cares. My ex had a sadistic bent. He used to laugh at news stories where people got hurt. He also told me the reason people are mean is because "they are so happy". A viewpoint that, to me, that indicates sadism. However, bringing in the more benign interpretation you give, I think is valid. My ex used to smile when he saw he had cut me in some way or another. I do believe the seeing that I cared was part of it. Sick, but part of it.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Would JS be a porn addict?

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:36 am

Give It Time wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:17 am
alas wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:15 pm
Rob4Hope wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:54 pm
The way JS treated Emma makes me angry. The way the church has portrayed and lied about their relationship, even making it into this fantasy loving relationship makes me MORE ANGRY.

I heard Grant Palmer explain some history from Section 132 about Emma's understanding of the phrase she would be destroyed. She, according to Grant, was afraid for her life. In the context of some of the statements above, JS was not only a predator, he threatened the life of his legal wife. This is an evil man.

And the LDS church believes God commanded JS to do all of this?

Its abuse and a cult of denial. Everyone in power keeps Joseph's "dirty little secret". How revolting!
You know, I wrote what I did about Joseph purposely sleeping with women that Emma loved just kind of off the top of my head, only realizing it kind of as I was writing about predators. But then I got thinking. I worked professionally with domestic I violence victims, had several who were at times afraid for their lives, had been beaten so bad they were hospitalized, broken bones, bla bla bla. After a while, one gets jaded, like my brother who is an emergency room doctor, and talks about blood and gore like people talk about lunch. Anyway, I have heard it all, seen much of it as I was called to the hospital twice to be with clients who had been badly beaten. Anyway, in my time working with domestic violence, the women got so nothing the man could do could hurt them anymore, they were just sort of numb. But part of domestic violence is the abuser proving that he can still get his victim to react with pain because the pain she feels is his proof that she cares about him and how he treats her. It is sort of like proof she loves him when she reacts with hurt. So, this is why things escalate. The abuser is like an addict who needs bigger and bigger hits, and his partner's emotional pain is the proof she cares for him.

So, in all the numb women I saw who were sort of past feeling anything, there were a few who talked about what was the thing he did that hurt the most. And that biggest emotional betrayal was sleeping with her best friend. It not only was him treating her like dirt, but he got her best friend to betray her trust also. Double whammy. Worst thing an abuser could do was get her best friend in on abusing her by sleeping with the best friend.

And Joseph did that with most if not all of the women Emma got close to. It was like telling her that no one would be loyal and she could not trust anyone. It was a huge power trip for him.

It sort of blows my mind how he isolated her by sleeping with her friends.
This is the first time I've come across this, also. I think you've really hit on something. I've been told the first thing an abuser does is isolate his victim. Interesting to see it's actually an ongoing process. You are right about the abuser causing the hurt, because it's proof the person cares. My ex had a sadistic bent. He used to laugh at news stories where people got hurt. He also told me the reason people are mean is because "they are so happy". A viewpoint that, to me, that indicates sadism. However, bringing in the more benign interpretation you give, I think is valid. My ex used to smile when he saw he had cut me in some way or another. I do believe the seeing that I cared was part of it. Sick, but part of it.
You are all blowing my mind with some of this personal stuff. Blowing my mind, not in a bad way, but in a mind-opening way!

There is a pattern here. And it jumped generations and has caused all kinds of backlash, polarization, and problems galore.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned my opinion that some of the ultra conservative apostles who clamped down on the idea of "pleasure for pleasure's sake" as being evil, were raised, almost exclusively by their mothers who were forced into polygamous marriage and treated as "less than" by their GA righteous polygamous husband. Its my opinion that some of these women vowed in their hearts they were NOT going to imbue the same detestable system onto their sons as they themselves were being forced to live in. So they went to work, raising young sons who were taught that self control trumped all else, self denial was required for all passions, especially those involving pleasure, etc. And low and behold, nepotism brought some of these young sons into the ranks of leadership, and the pendulum of virtue swung with lightening speed to the other extreme.

On one side you have JS shagging everyone he could and being abusive, even threatening in couched terms to kill his wife if she didn't let him do what he wanted. And on the other side, you have someone like Mark E. Peterson telling people in a stake conference that he has never seen his wife's naked body. http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/vie ... &sk=t&sd=a

I don't know for sure if this statement about Peterson is true, but I have read the Dialogue article on contraception, and have looked up statements by Joseph Fielding Smith--and I am pretty sure that these guys had an adverse opinion about sexual pleasure.

The extremes make sense to me, when I look at them in the context of the conflict between liberal hedonistic polygamous ideals, and the damage and subsequent retrenchment to stop the progress of that system through virtuous teachings to counter the trend by those hurt.

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