We are all enlisted

Discussions toward a better understanding of LDS doctrine, history, and culture. Discussion of Christianity, religion, and faith in general is welcome.
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Korihor
Posts: 1239
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:37 am

We are all enlisted

Post by Korihor » Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:50 pm

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865 ... y-day.html

Warning - self righteous attitude church stuff
Reading can severely damage your ignorance.

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nibbler
Posts: 904
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:12 pm

Re: We are all enlisted

Post by nibbler » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:11 am

  • More us vs. them rhetoric
  • They are the "enemy"
  • We are persecuted
  • "...society that stalk[s] traditional families" ( :roll: ) being used where if they were being honest they'd just say that they're against gay marriage
  • You're all lazy members that need to work harder
  • A dash of prosperity gospel at the end
Average is the enemy of excellence, and average commitment will prevent you from enduring to the end
I've also heard the quote that "Perfection is the enemy of the good." IMO the obsession with perfection in the church is indeed an enemy to the good that it could be.
From the scriptures, he explained, we know “that there was a war in heaven and that Lucifer rebelled and, with his followers, ‘was cast out into the earth,’ (Revelations 12:9). He is determined to disrupt our Heavenly Father’s plan and seeks to control the minds and actions of all. This influence is spiritual, and he ‘is abroad in the land’ ”(Doctrine and Covenants 52:14).
Controlling the minds and actions of all. Oh, you mean a church. ;) And the very next paragraph:
On this battleground of mortality, the enemy, like the example above, seeks to push every advantage. The scriptures teach that those who are “lulled away into carnal security” will say, “All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well.” But through such complacency “the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell” (2 Nephi 28:21).
Like hiding activity rates, financials, and history in an effort to create a public image that all is well in Zion?
We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.
– Anais Nin

Gatorbait
Posts: 245
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:13 pm

Re: We are all enlisted

Post by Gatorbait » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:35 am

There’s what, over forty thousand religions in the world? Something like that, they are like diseases- they exist, but we don’t know what they all are, where they all are, or how they came to be in the first place- let alone the cure. Really- where did all these diseases come from. God? The devil? Neither? The same can be said of the churches. Why would any god want there to be thousands of untrue churches on his very own favorite planet that he made his very own self? Isn’t that like pouring vinegar in the milk you are about to drink with some nummy cookies? Why do that?

Of course the only true church is the one which the believer claims is true, as there is no evidence apart from, “there was a burning in my bosom”, and every faith oriented lecture ever created.

The difference is, at least for most of us, we got sucked in to “the one true church” which also was a very time consuming and expensive one. When we found out that the speeches about the evils in the world were happening all around us, we lapped it up like a cat with a bowl of cream in front of it. We thought the evil, naughty and stupid people all belonged to other churches or none at all- but never ever did we doubt our church.

What many religious people are starting to understand now is this: send us the cure- the sickness, we already have.

The sickness? Lack of proof or evidence that any church is true. With that, the prudent ones simply dismiss all of them.
"Let no man count himself righteous who permits a wrong he could avert". N.N. Riddell

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No Tof
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Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:54 am

Re: We are all enlisted

Post by No Tof » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:44 am

President Brigham Young, ‘the men and women, who desire to obtain seats in the celestial kingdom, will find that they must battle every day’ (in Journal of Discourses, 11:14). Therefore, true Christian soldiers are more than weekend warriors.”

I loved how the Journal of Discourses was resurrected in this article. Where has it been all these years?

So many of BY's teachings have been thrown under the bus by modern prophets it's nice to see some come back into vogue. ;)
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and right doing, there is a field. I'll meet you there.
Rumi

Reuben
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:01 pm

Re: We are all enlisted

Post by Reuben » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:45 pm

My favorite sentence:
Complacency, in effect, is a form of pride where we believe our way is best or our view is the correct one.
Ayup. May I hold your mirror for you?

Nah. It's only pride if a lowly peon holds view that isn't in harmony with today's doctrine.

Here's a fun idea I had. Ask an ex-JW to rewrite this article by swapping out GA quotes for quotes from GB members and Watchtower publications, as one-to-one as possible. The idea is to leave the substance intact and the article recognizable, but make it look like JW material. Then give it to a TBM and ask them to read it, and then give them the original.

Maybe they'd get how absolutely batsh*t kooky it sounds. "Help, help, we're surrounded by demons! Whatever can we do but hold fast to the organization that told us we're surrounded by demons?"
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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Not Buying It
Posts: 1308
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:29 pm

Re: We are all enlisted

Post by Not Buying It » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:22 pm

Reuben wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:45 pm
My favorite sentence:
Complacency, in effect, is a form of pride where we believe our way is best or our view is the correct one.
Ayup. May I hold your mirror for you?

Nah. It's only pride if a lowly peon holds view that isn't in harmony with today's doctrine.

Here's a fun idea I had. Ask an ex-JW to rewrite this article by swapping out GA quotes for quotes from GB members and Watchtower publications, as one-to-one as possible. The idea is to leave the substance intact and the article recognizable, but make it look like JW material. Then give it to a TBM and ask them to read it, and then give them the original.

Maybe they'd get how absolutely batsh*t kooky it sounds. "Help, help, we're surrounded by demons! Whatever can we do but hold fast to the organization that told us we're surrounded by demons?"
That's brilliant!

I hate to see them encourage mindless zealotry like that. The Church will turn you into a real weirdo if you let it.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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EternityIsNow
Posts: 146
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:48 pm

Re: We are all enlisted

Post by EternityIsNow » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:48 pm

Gatorbait wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:35 am
There’s what, over forty thousand religions in the world? Something like that, they are like diseases- they exist, but we don’t know what they all are, where they all are, or how they came to be in the first place- let alone the cure. Really- where did all these diseases come from. God? The devil? Neither? The same can be said of the churches. Why would any god want there to be thousands of untrue churches on his very own favorite planet that he made his very own self? Isn’t that like pouring vinegar in the milk you are about to drink with some nummy cookies? Why do that?

Of course the only true church is the one which the believer claims is true, as there is no evidence apart from, “there was a burning in my bosom”, and every faith oriented lecture ever created.

The difference is, at least for most of us, we got sucked in to “the one true church” which also was a very time consuming and expensive one. When we found out that the speeches about the evils in the world were happening all around us, we lapped it up like a cat with a bowl of cream in front of it. We thought the evil, naughty and stupid people all belonged to other churches or none at all- but never ever did we doubt our church.

What many religious people are starting to understand now is this: send us the cure- the sickness, we already have.

The sickness? Lack of proof or evidence that any church is true. With that, the prudent ones simply dismiss all of them.
Well said.

The way I see this is to think in terms of evolutionary science. Religions are like species that are evolving all the time. Those that adapt to changing circumstances are probably fitter and have survival advantage. Others will eventually go extinct. IF God is in the equation, it was to create the laws of evolutionary progress. Because that is how things seem to work in the real world. As for the cure, it does not have to be more churches, or an anti-church movement. Think in evolutionary terms. Simply change the environment enough and the less fit churches will not survive, they will simply be starved out, in fact this seems to be already happening.

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Dravin
Posts: 402
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:04 am
Location: Indiana

Re: We are all enlisted

Post by Dravin » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:15 am

Reuben wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:45 pm

Nah. It's only pride if a lowly peon holds view that isn't in harmony with today's doctrine.
Yep. Accusations of pride for those who stopped believing or take unorthodox positions with respect to Mormonism are funny things. Being unsure of your beliefs and reevaluating them is pride while doing something like standing up in front of a group and declaring, "I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, with every fiber of my being, that (my beliefs) are correct and and cannot be wrong!" is humility.
Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

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RubinHighlander
Posts: 1906
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:20 am
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Re: We are all enlisted

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:17 am

Gatorbait wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:35 am
Why would any god want there to be thousands of untrue churches on his very own favorite planet that he made his very own self? Isn’t that like pouring vinegar in the milk you are about to drink with some nummy cookies? Why do that?
It's even worse than this. It's like giving your own children a 0.02% (percentage of LDS members vs. the world) chance of succeeding in life, by confusing them with all kinds of emotional, mental and physical barriers to test and confuse them, ultimately damaging them psychologically. God's tender mercy and love? These few kids are very special and get all the opportunities and truth via obedience to worship of a few men claiming to be his chosen servants? Those few kids are so special they get to kill other non-special kids sometimes in the name of religion? How Fd up is that!? That by itself is good evidence that God is man's creation, evolved from tribalism into institutions of control via fear and guilt.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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