Polygamy and gender ratios

[slavereeno]

if polygamy was indeed a true principle that will be practiced in the heavens (that being why a man can be sealed to more than one woman where the revers is not true) and yet the sex ratio (men to women) on the earth is basically 1:1 (with Male ratio being actually slight higher at birth).

Are the men as God has created them inherently more evil than women? So fewer men will make it to supah-heaven? I guess that would be supported by prison statistics, and by gender disaffection ratios. In that way I guess it sucks to be a dude! We were born to fail, and the women just get farmed out to the small % of men that make it like cattle. I have been told that I just don't understand the mysteries of God by my Dad when I bring this stuff up, but this principle makes God seem like NOT the loving God I want to get close to.

[Reuben]

All us men are destined for TK smoothies, that's for sure.

[slavereeno]

All us men are destined for TK smoothies, that's for sure.

I have heard that used before in discussions about the tk, thought we made it up!

[Dravin]

Are the men as God has created them inherently more evil than women? So fewer men will make it to supah-heaven?

The cost of the penishood is a higher attrition rate. To be a little bit more serious, while it may not necessarily be enshrined in doctrine (Oh Say, What Is Doctrine?) I've certainly encountered the sentiment in plenty of priesthood meetings that women are just inherently more spiritual and that's one of the reasons only men get the priesthood; they need it to put them anywhere near the same level as women (benevolent sexism for the win!). Which if true explains why so few men make it to Super VIP Heaven given the vast majority of the men who exist, have existed, and most likely will ever exist don't even know what the priesthood is let alone received it. Simply put, if the priesthood is required to put us anywhere near the same level most men are simply hosed.

[moksha]

105 males are born to every 100 females. Because of higher male infant mortality rates, this is leveled out by the time the kids are in kindergarten. It stays fairly constant in non-wartime until about age 20 when females start to slightly outnumber males. Big difference by age 85.

All us men are destined for TK smoothies, that's for sure.

I have heard that used before in discussions about the tk, thought we made it up!

Only the highest priesthood achievers will have Celestial harems of women with perfected Celestial bodies. In order to populate their reward planet, the harem of Celestial beauties will remain eternally pregnant thanks to the indefatigable and potent nature of the new God's perfected priesthood.

Those who are not the top Celestialized males will take up origami.

[slavereeno]

Simply put, if the priesthood is required to put us anywhere near the same level most men are simply hosed.

In order to populate their reward planet, the harem of Celestial beauties will remain eternally pregnant...

Those who are not the top Celestialized males will take up origami.

Exactly, so I am still up to my neck in the deconstruction phase (which is probably obvious to anyone watching my posts), but this seems deeply flawed, sexist, and misogynistic all at once. Even if its all true as rain, I am not sure I would even want to be with the Mormon version of God after this is all said and done. (which, I guess my TBM leaders would tell me I won't be. ) I refuse to believe that my wife would be carted off due to my unbelief to be JS's 200,000th at the point of a flaming sword!

[alas]

According to some things I have read by Brigham Young, women are not judged by the same standard. Women being by nature more childlike than men are judged more like those who die before 8. All it takes for a woman to make it to the CK, is for some righteous priesthood holder to want her. Free ticket, no matter how righteous/unrighteous. Another thing I have seen that BY said is that all I takes for a woman to make it to the CK is for her to have given birth. See, giving birth undoes the curse brought about by Eve, making women pure. Sort of like what baptism does for men, I suppose, only childbirth is permanent and women who have done it, well, somehow their sin doesn't matter. Another lovely thing BY said about women is that they do not have enough intelligence to have moral agency, so therefore, they all get a free pass.

BY was going to figure out a way for there to be the thousands of women he wanted in his harem, even if he had to give all women a free pass.

Some of BY's thinking still shows up in the temple ceremony where women enter the celestial room by talking to "the lord" through the veil. Their husband is the one on the other side of the veil when a woman is getting her own endowment. He is her lord. If the woman is doing proxi work, then the man standing proxy is not standing proxy for THE Lord, but for HER lord. So, when the man calls his wife at resurrection by her "new name" and takes her into the CK, he is her sole judge, not Christ but her husband judges her by whether or not he wants her as a wife.

So that is the real reason there will be plenty of women for polygamy in the CK, we women are just too stupid to have the ability to sin, so all that is required is baby making gear and a man who wants us in his harem. Women don't need to be righteous to be on the CK, just need the ability to make babies.

[Give It Time]

Their husband is the one on the other side of the veil when a woman is getting her own endowment. He is her lord. If the woman is doing proxi work, then the man standing proxy is not standing proxy for THE Lord, but for HER lord. So, when the man calls his wife at resurrection by her "new name" and takes her into the CK, he is her sole judge, not Christ but her husband judges her by whether or not he wants her as a wife.

If any reader disagrees with this, this was my ex's view. We had this conversation when we were first married. I had no idea where he got it. He was fairly inactive when he was growing up in a state outside the MorCor. My view was that Jesus was too busy and was delegating this task to the men. Jesus did the judging, the men were just being chivalrous and helping their eternal companion through the veil. Very much like the way a man holds the door for a woman and holds out his hand for her to grasp as she gets out of the car.

After having spent twenty years with a man who considered himself my God, I came across this idea again. It explained so much! It may not be officially part of the curriculum, but somehow at least some of the men are getting this idea and I'd venture most of the women are as clueless as I was. Women believe foolish things like priesthood making a man better. If he's a righteous priesthood holder, he can't ever do anything harmful. Any punishment he metes out on his wife cannot possibly be wrong. Even the scripture passage about kind and patient persuasion doesn't say anything about the possibility he could be wrong.

Women believe foolish things like the church absolutely condemning abuse. Then the woman goes to her bishop expecting actual common sense, best practices help for herself and her children. Heaven forfend! We can't have perpetual female children running around trying to raise her children away from a violent god-in-embryo! No! Best counsel her to go to the temple to remind her of her place.

She is to obey her husband as he obeys God
She is to STFU
She is to be continually grateful that her Lord and Master is willing to long-sufferingly tolerate her company in the temporal world where his eternal reward will be more woman-children.

Toward the end of our marriage I reminded my now-ex how I didn't want to survive the events preceding the millennium. I wanted to be on the clouds coming down. He said I better not even imagine that I would be anywhere near the Savior or JS or any prophet, because I just wasn't worthy. I was NOM, at this point, and I was thunderstruck at how bizarre his answer was. I had never even considered that sort of hierarchy. I just pictured myself on clouds with other angels and deceased. I have to admit, I worked hard to keep a straight face when he said that. Also, I asked him how he could justify his abuse, given the fact that we would be standing before the Lord, one day, and i would probably turn down eternal marriage to him (my ex). My ex said, that events would probably be shown from his point of view and he'd be okay.

I kind of hope the COB is reading this. My ex's views express a sense of pre-determined entitlement on his part. He always claimed his abuse was stress. That's how he got the bishop to go easy on him. However, it can be gathered that he considered himself God and he was bending me to his will through Godly chastising...and that is exactly what he was doing.

I recently met a woman who isn't LDS, but our stories are similar. We had a good talk. I told her of this doctrine. She agrees with me this is a dangerous doctrine. Reuben recently realized there was an example of spiritual abuse that is taught in our scriptures. I agreed with him that revelations like these that abuse is actually enabled and supported in this church are indeed a rude awakening.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2337

[Rob4Hope]

[Then the woman goes to her bishop expecting actual common sense, best practices help for herself and her children. Heaven forfend! We can't have perpetual female children running around trying to raise her children away from a violent god-in-embryo! No! Best counsel her to go to the temple to remind her of her place.

She is to obey her husband as he obeys God
She is to STFU
She is to be continually grateful that her Lord and Master is willing to long-sufferingly tolerate her company in the temporal world where his eternal reward will be more woman-children.

GIT,...question: why did you say go to the bishop and not go to the police or to an abuse shelter/counseling/support group?

Part of the gender roles TBM folks have internalized seems to be a sense of deferral to LDS authority, and not to trust their own ability with the law, an attorney, or a shelter.

I'm curious, nothing more. But this did stand out to me...

This same idea comes to mind as I shudder to think about my sons confessing to the bishop. ITS NONE OF HIS GAWD DAMNED BUSINESS how my sons go through NORMAL sexual development! This built-in type of deferral to authority, no boundaries and sharing some of the most intimate and private details with someone who somehow speaks for God (because we are too stupid or incapable of speaking to God for ourselves) is something that has grown more disgusting to me with time.

[Give It Time]

[Then the woman goes to her bishop expecting actual common sense, best practices help for herself and her children. Heaven forfend! We can't have perpetual female children running around trying to raise her children away from a violent god-in-embryo! No! Best counsel her to go to the temple to remind her of her place.

She is to obey her husband as he obeys God
She is to STFU
She is to be continually grateful that her Lord and Master is willing to long-sufferingly tolerate her company in the temporal world where his eternal reward will be more woman-children.

GIT,...question: why did you say go to the bishop and not go to the police or to an abuse shelter/counseling/support group?

Part of the gender roles TBM folks have internalized seems to be a sense of deferral to LDS authority, and not to trust their own ability with the law, an attorney, or a shelter.

I'm curious, nothing more. But this did stand out to me...

This same idea comes to mind as I shudder to think about my sons confessing to the bishop. ITS NONE OF HIS GAWD DAMNED BUSINESS how my sons go through NORMAL sexual development! This built-in type of deferral to authority, no boundaries and sharing some of the most intimate and private details with someone who somehow speaks for God (because we are too stupid or incapable of speaking to God for ourselves) is something that has grown more disgusting to me with time.

Excellent question, R4H and I will gladly answer it and hope the COB, shelters and law enforcement are lurking.

The father of my children(fomc) hit our son, one night. The fomc worked nights and went to work after this incident. I put my crying and upset children to bed and called the bishop. He didn't answer so I left a message. I then looked up the address of the nearest shelter and started packing. I fully believed I would have my bishop's and ward's complete support. The bishop called back. I explained what had happened, what I was doing and what my plans were. The bishop asked to come over, right away. Of course, I agreed.

He brought his wife, because it was so late. I related what happened to him. The bishop then asked me

Do you feel safe?

Note the present-tense nature of the question and use of the word "safe". I've called the pastor of another religion, he asked me if the fomc had ever hit one of us. Sounds like a similar question, but it really isn't. Back to the bishop's question, the fomc wasn't in my home, I was there with the bishop and his wife. In the present-tense, I answered that I felt says safe at that moment. The bishop then told me he didn't think I needed to report the incident to the police. The bishop broke the law with that counsel. The bishop then talked me into staying in my marriage. He reminded me of my temple covenants, the importance of a father in my sons' lives and the perils of children in daycare. He counseled me to go to the temple and forgive.

This bishop came back when the fomc was home and told him his excuse of stress was crap. Told him he would lose his family if he kept this up. Told him he was considering putting his membership on probation. The bishop then scheduled a visit for two weeks out. The fomc didn't hit, again, and things went back to a tense sort of normal. Not the fomc suddenly being loving and respectful, normal. IOW, things hadn't truly changed. The only thing that changed is the fomc now knew I would leave if he hit one of us. He could do absolutely anything and everything else and he did, but he didn't hit again, because society only considers hitting abuse, but he was still a mean cuss.

Two weeks later, the bishop returned. He asked if there had been a repeat. We said there hadn't. The bishop then extended a call to the Elers Quorum presidency to the fomc. I felt completely betrayed, but had faith my bishop was acting under revelation and knew better. He kind of was. It got the fomc out of the house, more. Fast forward, marriage on the rocks and in its final stages. I chose not to listen to the bishop, but the DV experts. My ex was prepared, this time. He took up looking at porn and started having bi-monthly visits with the bishop.

During these visits, he groomed and prepared the bishop to side with him. Which he did. I didn't help matters by bringing a level of honesty to my meeting. I told the bishop I was resolute, that the advice I had been given by the bishop ten years previous had not worked. That I now realized the temple covenants were actually part of the problem. This bishop was aware that the issue of DV and the church had damaged my testimony and proceeded to prove me right. Note, he could have chosen to completely discredit me and prove me wrong, but he chose to prove me right. Thus putting a nail in the coffin of my testimony.

So, there you have it, Rob. I fully trusted my bishop to follow and support best practices. Both bishops failed with style.

By the way, I answered the pastor's question of whether or not the fomc had ever hit us. When I told him he had, the pastor informed me to call my local victim's advocate and follow that person's instructions. He then provided me with the victim's advocate's phone number.

[Rob4Hope]

Thank you GIT.

You are like me: your temple covenants kept you in the marriage longer than you should have.

Because of the church I was more afraid of divorce than anything else...and I mean just about anything. But both my ex and I are happier divorced. Occasionally I imagine being back in that relationship, and it makes me shudder.

[Give It Time]

I read, recently, that abuse victims will stay in a relationship too long trying to make it work out. However, once they've been free for awhile, they don't wish they were back with their spouse hoping to work things out, they regret the years they lost.

[alas]

I know this is following the tangent, but the church had me as a. Hold convinced that my parents divorcing was the worst thing that could happen. I was seriously ready to commit suicide if that was what it took to end the abuse without telling and causing my parents to divorce. I think when the church makes divorce into such a terrible thing that a child thinks their own death is a much lesser evil, they have their priorities backward. But then I suppose that child abuse is not even on the radar of things they worry about. They sure act like it. Hold never happen. Ever. But divorce now, they make it into such a bogeyman. I have to wonder if they spent as much time on the things that hurt women and children instead of just worrying about what hurts men, that maybe they would do a better job of preventing divorce.

[Give It Time]

I know this is following the tangent, but the church had me as a. Hold convinced that my parents divorcing was the worst thing that could happen. I was seriously ready to commit suicide if that was what it took to end the abuse without telling and causing my parents to divorce. I think when the church makes divorce into such a terrible thing that a child thinks their own death is a much lesser evil, they have their priorities backward. But then I suppose that child abuse is not even on the radar of things they worry about. They sure act like it. Hold never happen. Ever. But divorce now, they make it into such a bogeyman. I have to wonder if they spent as much time on the things that hurt women and children instead of just worrying about what hurts men, that maybe they would do a better job of preventing divorce.

What's in bold. That. However, I swear to you that the lurkers from the COB think this means Criket machines and lash extensions.

My son wanted to commit suicide, because of how his father was continually trashing him. I told the bishop this. He just shrugged.

Did. Not. Care.

[SaidNobody]

Just to through in my two-pence.

The scriptures are very bi-polar on this issue. One minute they are telling people to avoid polygamy, the next they are saying the scriptures are calling them the chosen ones.

Being chosen isn't all that it is cracked up to be. The sacrificial virgin is chosen, or the young men to die in wars.

Mormon polygamy is tied to the Celestial Kingdom, which isn't exactly the same of a party at the palace. The Celestial Kingdom is near to where God dwells. The greatest forces in the universe live there. You cannot go there with any concept of ego. Like, you will go there and the great architects of the universe are there, great spirits of life that are large enough to inspire worlds, or even galaxies.

Going to the CK isn't like going a place, it's more of a "level of awareness." We are all connected and sourced from there. Nothing exists that isn't somehow sourced from there. But to get to that level of awareness, that level of love, we really have to give up ideas of selfishness and ego. You are not required to go. The realms that we live in are supported with love and will basically exist as long we want to live in them.

But, for a mother to become a "mother of all" is a CK concept. It's where you no longer see the line between your children or your sister's children, or see differences in any children. Men become "servants to some or many" and devotes his life to them, or all.

JS said "to exercise unrighteous dominion, then amen to that man's priesthood." CK is a level of love and awareness, not of dominion. To get there, as a practice, takes serious sacrifice of a lot of things we think important to us. But, no one is "required" to go there.

[MoPag]

The cost of the penishood...

<snip>

Penishood!!

Love it! Totally going to use this!

Exactly, so I am still up to my neck in the deconstruction phase (which is probably obvious to anyone watching my posts), but this seems deeply flawed, sexist, and misogynistic all at once. Even if its all true as rain, I am not sure I would even want to be with the Mormon version of God after this is all said and done. (which, I guess my TBM leaders would tell me I won't be. ) I refuse to believe that my wife would be carted off due to my unbelief to be JS's 200,000th at the point of a flaming sword!

When my shelf finally broke, a part of me felt a strange sense of relief. And I think it was that I didn't have to believe in the eternal destiny that the church had taught me was so great. Being chattel is not great. Their version of polygamy in the eternities is sick. It was a relief to find out it was all bullsh*t

[slavereeno]

Thanks so much GiveItTime and Alas, frankly I haven't been exposed to this kind of stuff, or how its handled. As a man, I have been oblivious to a culture of misogyny, when one clearly exists.

Pulling women through the veil and that he could never tell his wife his name, but would get to know hers, really really troubled my son when he went through the temple. I said nothing other than to validate with my non-response, because I am in hiding and frankly that is really starting to wear on me. I seriously wanted to tell him, "Son, its all made up anyway and you never have to go back."

Funny though, I know a lot of men that are terrified of their wives.

[Give It Time]

Thanks so much GiveItTime and Alas, frankly I haven't been exposed to this kind of stuff, or how its handled. As a man, I have been oblivious to a culture of misogyny, when one clearly exists.

Pulling women through the veil and that he could never tell his wife his name, but would get to know hers, really really troubled my son when he went through the temple. I said nothing other than to validate with my non-response, because I am in hiding and frankly that is really starting to wear on me. I seriously wanted to tell him, "Son, its all made up anyway and you never have to go back."

Funny though, I know a lot of men that are terrified of their wives.

In all fairness, there are terrifying women. Now, my therapist told me, one time, and I confirmed this with shelter workers, that abusive people consider their targets enemies. So, a person can be perfectly kind and mild mannered, but the abuser will still consider their target an enemy, a threat, someone to be feared and treat them accordingly.

BTW, glad to hear both you and your son have qualms about pulling your wife(s) through the veil. When my testimony ultimately fell, I actually broke out in laughter, because these things that had been such a source of anxiety for me no longer mattered.