New RFM Podcast--Making Doctrine Out of Nothing at All

[consiglieri]

My latest Radio Free Mormon podcast went up yesterday.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/ ... ent-221098

It examines one sentence in the Family Proclamation, and argues that in spite of statements that the Proclamation is just a reemphasis of what has been said by prophets throughout the church's history, there appear to be some exceptions to this.

The thing I like most about the podcast is where it points the way for the LDS Church to be able to embrace gay marriage.

And it can do this by simply getting back to the teachings of Joseph Smith.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Hagoth]

Excellent podcast, Consiglieri. Thanks again!

Wouldn't it be interesting if large numbers of church members decided to start following the teachings of Joseph Smith over the platitudes of modern prophets?

Any mention of TK smoothies puts a smile on my face, and I love the way you pointed out the double meaning. I'm tempted to open a Mormon-themed diner just so I can sell TK smoothies.

[blazerb]

I really liked this podcast. I have a few random thoughts.

First, the "gender is eternal" doctrine strikes me as very similar to the fence-sitter explanations for the priesthood and temple ban. The church has practices that make no sense when objectively examined. A reason has to be given.

Second, if I were an apologist in 50 years trying to explain this, I'd be quoting the D&C that eternal is a name for God. So saying that "gender is eternal" is just saying that gender is a property of godliness. Mark my words, that argument will be used. (I guess that's not very bold to make a prediction that can only be fulfilled after I am long dead.)

Third, our revelators seem scared of exercising their right to go to God for revelation. A couple of years ago when Oaks said that the leaders do not have the keys to extend the priesthood to women, it occurred to me that the leaders do not even appear to have the keys to ask God about the subject.

Finally, thank you for ending with Air Supply. That song was in my head the whole time.

[Hagoth]

Third, our revelators seem scared of exercising their right to go to God for revelation.

We know that they don't give apologies. I guess that extends to God too. I mean, what if they did try to talk to him and he told them they're wrong. They' would have to apologize to God AND LGBT people. That would be humiliating beyond their wildest dreams.

[No Tof]

Loved that podcast Consiglieri.

Knowing more about why the church isn’t what it says it is won’t make me more sure I’m in the right place out, or allow my DW to see it more clearly. Sigh.

Hopefully one day she will allow herself to really look at all the evidences.

In the meantime your work brings up the ideas to consider and share.

Great mind.

[Rob4Hope]

A couple of years ago when Oaks said that the leaders do not have the keys to extend the priesthood to women, it occurred to me that the leaders do not even appear to have the keys to ask God about the subject.

This reality is becoming more starkly apparent to me all the time. Why are these guys so affraid to ask God? Is God a tyrant?

"...who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not..."

Hunh?

Its pretty clear the reason they don't ask is because they know they are a fraud.

[1smartdodog]

Is not all Doctrine made up? If you are going to point out modern day announcements as being fabricated it seems you are somehow giving credence to old doctrines as being correct.

What is the difference between Joseph Smith making up doctrine or TSM? Joseph himself would say one thing and then latter alter it to fit the current situation.

I just accept the notion that everything that is said is just bAsed on personal opinion and convenience. In the case of gender it seems their comments are meant to fit the current narrative of the church.

If we somehow expect every comment to be inline with Joseph Smith, then we must assume Joseph was correct. Unless th point is to just show the conflict then you have a lifetime project ahead of you.

[MalcolmVillager]

Another hit RFM, well done!

[2bizE]

I listened to a bit of the podcast but not most. As I contemplate on the topic, my thoughts turn to the men who call themselves prophets, seers, and revelators. They are all older men. Most have served for many years. What is it that these men want more than anything? To leave a legacy of their greatness. How is greatness achieved by a PSR? By having revelations, especially ones that are canonized and placed in the D/C. The last canonized one was in 1978. Many were in the Q12 at that time. It seems they are trying awfully hard to come up with a revelation fitting to be canonized. BK Packer once called the proclamation revelation, but it was later corrected to show it wasn't revelation. Russell Nelson became the spokesman for the spokesman of God to introduce a so-called revelation on gays and their children. Mr. Oaks now makes another effort to call the proclamation revelation. I don't think it was censured this time. It just seems like the Q15 are really trying to push forward a revelation, even if it really isn't one, just to legitimize their calling and position of revelators on chief.

[alas]

I listened to a bit of the podcast but not most. As I contemplate on the topic, my thoughts turn to the men who call themselves prophets, seers, and revelators. They are all older men. Most have served for many years. What is it that these men want more than anything? To leave a legacy of their greatness. How is greatness achieved by a PSR? By having revelations, especially ones that are canonized and placed in the D/C. The last canonized one was in 1978. Many were in the Q12 at that time. It seems they are trying awfully hard to come up with a revelation fitting to be canonized. BK Packer once called the proclamation revelation, but it was later corrected to show it wasn't revelation. Russell Nelson became the spokesman for the spokesman of God to introduce a so-called revelation on gays and their children. Mr. Oaks now makes another effort to call the proclamation revelation. I don't think it was censured this time. It just seems like the Q15 are really trying to push forward a revelation, even if it really isn't one, just to legitimize their calling and position of revelators on chief.

I kind of disagree with the idea that what they want most is to leave a legacy of greatness. I think what they want most is to not be exposed as frauds. All of their behavior seems more fear based, like deep inside they fear they are not really what the church tells them they are. They are all too afraid they are strictly ordinary men. If they had a "great revelation" that later proved to be on a par with the Adam God doctrine, then they would go down in history as fools. They know what they think of Brigham and his theory and they are much closer to it than we are, partly because of their age, but also because of position. They fear if they say anything new or different, that it will not stand the test of time, so they cling tightly to firmly established, traditional, old doctrine. What things have been around forever? Those things are safe. They also fear losing their privilege as white men. They feel this eroding and it scares them. This eroding of their own priviledge is not how the world is supposed to be. This is part of clinging to tradition for them, their own traditional role. These two fears tie together in being safe, traditional, established.

So they get new revelation telling them gender roles are eternal. From our perspective it feels retrograde, but from their perspective, they want very badly for the world to stay safe for them in their privileged position as cis gender white males. By maintaining their power, they think people will not suspect they are frauds. This is why they double down on obedience, and quote each other as authority. They don't dare want to be great, they only hope to not be exposed as frauds and lose all power.

But then I am probably much more cynical than you are.

But you are spot on that it is all about legitimizing their position. Legitimizing their position as PSR by selling everyone on the idea that this idea they came up with about gender being eternal is revelation. But first they have to convince themselves and each other.

[Reuben]

I think ensuring legacy and maintaining power are factors, but also that there's more going on.

I think many (most?) of the Q15 have bought into the beliefs that 1) changes in the traditional family structure will bring about the end of the world (see the proclamation), and 2) accepting these changes or not will be the great dividing line between the wicked and the righteous (see Oaks's last talk). Survey data shows Mormons increasingly accepting SSM. I think they see this and are desperately trying to get Mormons to commit to beliefs that are incompatible with it.

I wonder if some hope that they can get enough support from conservative members to canonize the proclamation in order to overrule the more progressive apostles, but this is just a pipe dream.

[Reuben]

Now that I've listened to this, here are some of my thoughts, roughly in order.

First, I love it. I need to listen to RFM more. Intellectual discussion with a slight edge is totally my thing.

I think you interpret the proclamation a bit too strictly overall. It might stump TBMs but not progressives. Might get them to think harder, though, which is always a good thing.

Evidence for gender's eternal purpose: men are foreordained to the priesthood. The scriptures don't explicitly say that women aren't foreordained, so this evidence relies on ascriptural assumptions that are reinforced by current doctrine, policy and culture. The general idea, though, is that members think of biological sex as having more purpose in it than determining how you participate in making babies.

I'm not convinced you have to believe that D&C 132 was written by BY to go back to JS's understanding that spirits are eternal. Does "continuation of the seeds" necessarily mean procreation? Or can it mean the exaltation of your family? It might tie into JS's promises to his brides that marrying him would ensure their families would be saved. At any rate, not delegitimizing D&C 132 might be necessary for anyone who wants to walk a TBM through the reasoning in the podcast.

It's so weird to me that JFS would think that discrete intelligences could run out, but that an amorphous blob of intelligence couldn't. What's essential difference? Infinite divisibility? If so, do spirits get less and less intelligent as more are created?

When was the claim that the Q15 are PSRs first made? I wonder what the frequency of those claims over time has been.

I don't think most TBMs my age (40s) and younger think of spirits as being created by sexual congress. It's more of a "we don't understand that yet" thing; i.e. they don't think about it at all, which might be worse. It's fun to come up with possibilities for how billions of spirits are made: litters, test tube spirit babies, couples in wizard robes call them forth using arcane words of power, etc.

I love, love, love the idea of unifying disaffected orthodox and progressive Mormons by rallying them under Joseph Smith's more liberal theology. I might try this at home with my trying-so-hard-to-be-orthodox lesbian/bi daughter.

[Give It Time]

A couple of years ago when Oaks said that the leaders do not have the keys to extend the priesthood to women, it occurred to me that the leaders do not even appear to have the keys to ask God about the subject.

I don't know why a bigger deal wasn't made out of this statement, at the time. Perhaps the context indicated the situation is truly hopeless, but this statement firmly implies God wants women to have the priesthood, but the current leadership doesn't hold that key. Weeehhhllll, at one time Joseph didn't have priesthood, prayed about it and bam! He was given priesthood. Personally, I think if God wants women to have the priesthood and the leaders aren't asking, He must be pretty pissed.

Alas is right. This is about fear.

If they were PSRs, they would be asking and receiving. It's interesting, this is one area where mainstream Christians have it over us. They have an idea of humble yourself and boldly ask God. It seems strange to see humble and bold expressed together in this way, but they have so much faith that God will provide that asking boldly is actually a natural thing, because there is so much trust that loving Heavenly Father will provide. So our leaders need to soften those hard won from fear stiff necks and stiff knees and boldly ask God about extending the priesthood to women. I'm beginning to think that the reason Joseph Smith was so dynamic and creative was actually because he was raised mainstream Christian, rather than Mormon and he had the humility to trust God and boldly ask.

[Rob4Hope]

A couple of years ago when Oaks said that the leaders do not have the keys to extend the priesthood to women, it occurred to me that the leaders do not even appear to have the keys to ask God about the subject.

I don't know why a bigger deal wasn't made out of this statement, at the time. Perhaps the context indicated the situation is truly hopeless, but this statement firmly implies God wants women to have the priesthood, but the current leadership doesn't hold that key. Weeehhhllll, at one time Joseph didn't have priesthood, prayed about it and bam! He was given priesthood. Personally, I think if God wants women to have the priesthood and the leaders aren't asking, He must be pretty pissed.

Alas is right. This is about fear.

If they were PSRs, they would be asking and receiving. It's interesting, this is one area where mainstream Christians have it over us. They have an idea of humble yourself and boldly ask God. It seems strange to see humble and bold expressed together in this way, but they have so much faith that God will provide that asking boldly is actually a natural thing, because there is so much trust that loving Heavenly Father will provide. So our leaders need to soften those hard won from fear stiff necks and stiff knees and boldly ask God about extending the priesthood to women. I'm beginning to think that the reason Joseph Smith was so dynamic and creative was actually because he was raised mainstream Christian, rather than Mormon and he had the humility to trust God and boldly ask.

I can't decide if the Q15 think God is approachable, or He is a tyrant. On one side you have scripture talking about ask and not be upbraided, and on the other side you have members of the Q15 explaining that to approach God and ask anything is a grave and serious matter--so much so that extreme caution, foresight, preparation,...even FEAR is required to even consider the venture.

Which one is it?

Do the GAs simply use this dichotomy as needed, choosing whatever side is required, to justify their current position and lack of progressions as PSRs?

[Give It Time]

A couple of years ago when Oaks said that the leaders do not have the keys to extend the priesthood to women, it occurred to me that the leaders do not even appear to have the keys to ask God about the subject.

I don't know why a bigger deal wasn't made out of this statement, at the time. Perhaps the context indicated the situation is truly hopeless, but this statement firmly implies God wants women to have the priesthood, but the current leadership doesn't hold that key. Weeehhhllll, at one time Joseph didn't have priesthood, prayed about it and bam! He was given priesthood. Personally, I think if God wants women to have the priesthood and the leaders aren't asking, He must be pretty pissed.

Alas is right. This is about fear.

If they were PSRs, they would be asking and receiving. It's interesting, this is one area where mainstream Christians have it over us. They have an idea of humble yourself and boldly ask God. It seems strange to see humble and bold expressed together in this way, but they have so much faith that God will provide that asking boldly is actually a natural thing, because there is so much trust that loving Heavenly Father will provide. So our leaders need to soften those hard won from fear stiff necks and stiff knees and boldly ask God about extending the priesthood to women. I'm beginning to think that the reason Joseph Smith was so dynamic and creative was actually because he was raised mainstream Christian, rather than Mormon and he had the humility to trust God and boldly ask.

I can't decide if the Q15 think God is approachable, or He is a tyrant. On one side you have scripture talking about ask and not be upbraided, and on the other side you have members of the Q15 explaining that to approach God and ask anything is a grave and serious matter--so much so that extreme caution, foresight, preparation,...even FEAR is required to even consider the venture.

Which one is it?

Do the GAs simply use this dichotomy as needed, choosing whatever side is required, to justify their current position and lack of progressions as PSRs?

Maybe they need to go to Relief Society, because we are only taught wonderful things about prayer in there.

[Emower]

I think you interpret the proclamation a bit too strictly overall. It might stump TBMs but not progressives. Might get them to think harder, though, which is always a good thing.

I am going to disagree here. This will not stump a TBM at all, in fact the whole premise including the title is non starter for a TBM. Making doctrine out of nothing at all is the very mormon definition of what a Prophet should do. "We dont have enough guidance on this issue? Well ok then heres some additional guidance and since I'm a prophet that means it is revelation and doctrine!" I mean really, we complain about Prophets not coming up with new stuff all the dang time. TBM's will look at this and say that it is a prime example of revelation in our time and the fact that there is no scriptural basis for it makes it all the more special.

I am also confused about the statement that the proclamation makes it up out of nothing, but cites Talmage as the source for the language? So, they didnt come up with it out of thin air, Talmage did. Either way, to a TBM he is still a PSR.