Is "not knowing" scary?My new

[deacon blues]

My new world view is theism/Christianity mixed with healthy (in my opinion) skepticism. It's working for me. I'm reasonably happy. Quite often I get the idea, from church leaders and apologists, that "not knowing the church is true" either leads to a life nihilistic sin, or meaningless depression. It doesn't feel that way to me. Does anyone else wrestle with the sin/depression paradigm? (Hope I used the word right)

[MalcolmVillager]

I have often imagined myself as and aged and/or infirm man staring death in the face. Will I be alone or surrounded by loved ones? Will I fear death because of the permanence or unknown of it all? Will I feel sad because of the nihilistic reality that staring the grave in such imminent intimacy must generate?

Mormonism does community and higher purpose so well. Does the agnostic or atheist fail to come and go from mortality with the love of family and hope of eternity that a TBM naturally enjoys?

I have not felt the fear I was always told an apostate would feel, yet I am well on my way down that heretical path.

I do find purpose in life and death. It is mine and not that which was handed to me, fresh off the cookie cutter machine. Life is infinitely more purposeful in knowing (feeling) I have bit one life to live.

There was depression, fear, and anger as I pried the grips of brainwashing (or maybe a more generous term like indoctination) away from my heart and mind. The journey is beautiful, but knowing that the adventure to find my purpose can only happen when I leave the comforts of Mormonism behind.

I am sure there will continue to be moments of fear, anger, and even depression as my tribe tells me that I have left them no choice but to exclude.

[Anon70]

Believing the church was true filled me with guilt, shame, a crushing sense of inadequacy and anxiety. Once I realized it wasn't true, I felt lighter. More at ease and at peace. More able to be in the here and now and do good rather than constantly trying to achieve an impossible perfection. So for me, while there may be some good,I'm much happier now knowing it's not true.

[Dravin]

My new world view is theism/Christianity mixed with healthy (in my opinion) skepticism. It's working for me. I'm reasonably happy. Quite often I get the idea, from church leaders and apologists, that "not knowing the church is true" either leads to a life nihilistic sin, or meaningless depression. It doesn't feel that way to me. Does anyone else wrestle with the sin/depression paradigm? (Hope I used the word right)

Well... it depends what you mean by nihilistic sin. I mean I enjoy a beer now, or watching a rated R movie, sleeping in on Sunday, and I don't object to picking something up at the store on Sunday either. Now I don't do these things because life is meaningless, but I don't avoid them because I no longer believe there is some eternal being in the sky or that some nebulous concept of the universe at large cares that I refrain from these things. On the other hand you don't find me running around murdering, raping, or stealing from people because, "Hey, no hell!" So depending on the spin you want to put on a life of nihilistic sin I may or may not have wandered down the garden path.

[Give It Time]

Atheists, with their view of no afterlife, don't have a tendency to look at world problems and social injustices and say to themselves that things will be better in the next life. All the atheists I've talked to let the idea this life is our only shot propel them to make the world a better place while they are living.

Are Buddhists nihilistic sinners? Are Jews? Are Catholics? Are Pagans? No member had better express the idea that a testimony of this church is the only way to be happy in a mixed religion setting, because that member will be dusted off and set straight very quickly.

You want a sense of nihilism? Try considering the fate that your afterlife consists of being the head wife in a harem. The women in this church really try not to think about that one. I don't know what the afterlife holds and no one does, but thank God I know longer have to consider polygamy! Now, that's such a joyful thought, I think I'll have some celebratory tea!

[RubinHighlander]

Believing the church was true filled me with guilt, shame, a crushing sense of inadequacy and anxiety. Once I realized it wasn't true, I felt lighter. More at ease and at peace. More able to be in the here and now and do good rather than constantly trying to achieve an impossible perfection. So for me, while there may be some good,I'm much happier now knowing it's not true.

+1 for this. I actually fear death much less now. I feel much more at peace with my life and it feels happier and better all the way around. I simply don't know if there is a god out there and I'm not very concerned about that. It took me a few months of cogdis to fill the false knowledge gap of the LDS plan of salvation. Actually I found I didn't need to fill it because it was a false gap. What I did free my self up to accept was a continuous path of discovery into the sciences and nature, looking and appreciating them without the distorted LDS view. I have gravitated more to and enjoyed much more the natural world; landscape and nature photography, camping, backpacking, rock climbing, canyoneering. I feel very fortunate to live in Utah where there's so much of that to explore.

As far as falling into sin or some other moral degradation, that is a subjective opinion. I enjoy alcohol on occasion, as well as the herbs of the field, but it has not impacted my health, productivity or personal relationships. My marriage has never been better. My relationship with my kids has never been better. I still make donations to good causes and feel compassion to serve others, which is now more altruistic because there's no magical consequence attached to it.

I think the majority of folks who make the exit are significantly better off. I'm sure there are some with lots of baggage and family situations that are not, but time can heal most of that drama.

I do worry sometimes about the future of humanity because I view it as rare and precious in the vastness of the expanding universe. But I don't believe the universe cares. Like a forest fire; it looks devastating to us to see a place burned to the ground, but on the Earth's timescale vs. a human lifetime, nature doesn't really care and quickly grows a new one over a couple of hundred years. The universe is the same way. Some cosmic rays from a super nova or an big enough space rock could wipe us out in a flash and the universe will just keep expanding and doing its thing, whether or not we manage to go out and populate other planets or all die tomorrow.

I have some hope there is life after death, but I have more appreciation for my here and now. If I meet a god in the next life and it tells me I was wrong then I think it/he/she is very much flawed and unworthy of worship. This relates to another recent thread viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2335 --that a god would place so many obstacles in our path as to make it statistically impossible for the majority of the kids to make it to a super VIP heaven.

[moksha]

Does anyone else wrestle with the sin/depression paradigm? (Hope I used the word right)

I've wondered about not believing in anything at all. Fortunately, I have always believed in something and I suspect almost all people believe in something as well. So it is not a matter of going from a true knower to a nihilistic existence. Just seek out what you do believe rather than getting a prescription for Prozac.

A good thing about ceasing to be a True Knower is that you will never be paid a visit by the past, present, and future Ghosts of Epistemology. The links in the chains forged by regular Fast 'N Testimony talkers can be ponderous.

[Hagoth]

Not knowing there is something after this life but hoping that there might be something good is far superior to an "absolute knowledge" that there is an eternity of either glory or disappointment while constantly being reminded that you're not worthy of the glory.

[slavereeno]

I started by giving up all the stuff the church heaps on that made me depressed. That was great, but then rebuilding is bit more of a challenge.

Thes is my (current) state of hope:

There is some "other", somewhere. As to its nature or consciousness, I don't know and I'm not sure it matters, but it favors good. I believe in an individual and collective apotheosis of humans. We are part of God and God is part of each of us. I also believe that humans have evil in them and that they are capable and responsible for its manifestation in our world. Our apotheosis happens when we pursue the Good inside us. When we do, we become God individually and part of him collectively. (All matter is connected at the quantum level and we don't fully understand the implications of that, but I am using this principle to support some of my hopes here.) The fundamental principles of what is Good and what is not are woven into the fabric of all human expression throughout history, they can be found in Art, Music, Literature, Science, Poetry etc. What attributes of the hero in stories make us like him and root for him? Why do we dislike the villain? I would like to try to be like the hero and contribute to the things that lift the human race. These truths include many of the teachings of Christ, but also many many others. Heaven and Hell are what you make them and you can experience them now, you don't have to wait for that. I hope there is a "me" of some kind after this life and that I will get to associate with loved ones. If you spend your time and energy to make yourself an asshat, your reward is that you are an asshat. If there is life after this one I don't expect you get to change into a non-asshat just because you died after ritual bathing.

So in summary, I am a Humanist, Diest, Christian, Universalist, Agnostic...

[deacon blues]

Does anyone else wrestle with the sin/depression paradigm? (Hope I used the word right)

I've wondered about not believing in anything at all. Fortunately, I have always believed in something and I suspect almost all people believe in something as well. So it is not a matter of going from a true knower to a nihilistic existence. Just seek out what you do believe rather than getting a prescription for Prozac.

A good thing about ceasing to be a True Knower is that you will never be paid a visit by the past, present, and future Ghosts of Epistemology. The links in the chains forged by regular Fast 'N Testimony talkers can be ponderous.

Bless you my friend, my.....uh....my Penguin.

[deacon blues]

Not knowing there is something after this life but hoping that there might be something good is far superior to an "absolute knowledge" that there is an eternity of either glory or disappointment while constantly being reminded that you're not worthy of the glory.

Hmmmmmm. I think I see your point. But I don't think I'm worthy of my current existence, yet somehow here I am. I think a dumb intellectual like me needs to be reminded that this life is a gift, otherwise I might get too big for my britches. But I could be wrong.

thanks, Hagoth, you make me think. And thanks Rubin and all you other folks. Where ever your going, I want to go there too.

[deacon blues]

I started by giving up all the stuff the church heaps on that made me depressed. That was great, but then rebuilding is bit more of a challenge.

Thes is my (current) state of hope:

There is some "other", somewhere. As to its nature or consciousness, I don't know and I'm not sure it matters, but it favors good. I believe in an individual and collective apotheosis of humans. We are part of God and God is part of each of us. I also believe that humans have evil in them and that they are capable and responsible for its manifestation in our world. Our apotheosis happens when we pursue the Good inside us. When we do, we become God individually and part of him collectively. (All matter is connected at the quantum level and we don't fully understand the implications of that, but I am using this principle to support some of my hopes here.) The fundamental principles of what is Good and what is not are woven into the fabric of all human expression throughout history, they can be found in Art, Music, Literature, Science, Poetry etc. What attributes of the hero in stories make us like him and root for him? Why do we dislike the villain? I would like to try to be like the hero and contribute to the things that lift the human race. These truths include many of the teachings of Christ, but also many many others. Heaven and Hell are what you make them and you can experience them now, you don't have to wait for that. I hope there is a "me" of some kind after this life and that I will get to associate with loved ones. If you spend your time and energy to make yourself an asshat, your reward is that you are an asshat. If there is life after this one I don't expect you get to change into a non-asshat just because you died after ritual bathing.

So in summary, I am a Humanist, Diest, Christian, Universalist, Agnostic...

I'm pretty close to this. I don't believe in Creationism, hate, (almost) all of Joseph's visions, atonement by blood, and a few other things.

[Ghost]

For me, a loss of certainty didn't lead to depression or "sin." Disappointment, sure, as I came to see an afterlife as highly unlikely. And however I frame things, I find some variety of nihilism inescapable. Not that I would ever describe myself as "a nihilist," because that seems like kind of a ridiculous thing to say. Absurdism resonates with me much more strongly than nihilism, at any rate. But whatever I call it, I don't find it debilitating. It's easy enough to choose to believe and value things even if nothing I do will have any lasting effect in this life or beyond.

I've never been able to really buy into the idea that this life suddenly becomes more meaningful in the absence of belief in an afterlife. More rich in some ways, sure, but not more meaningful. Maybe I will eventually develop that attitude, but I think it's fine if I never do.

[LostGirl]

Believing the church was true filled me with guilt, shame, a crushing sense of inadequacy and anxiety. Once I realized it wasn't true, I felt lighter. More at ease and at peace. More able to be in the here and now and do good rather than constantly trying to achieve an impossible perfection. So for me, while there may be some good,I'm much happier now knowing it's not true.

+1000000
This, in every way. I feel I am a better wife and mother without the constant feelings of guilt and inadequacy.