Mainstream Christianity.

[Emower]

I have not been posting much lately. I have been busy with work and life but I have some questions that have been marinating.

When I got into this process I thought that the worst that could happen after looking at anti-Mormon stuff was that I would become more of a mainstream christian instead of a Mormon. I didnt plan on losing my faith in a general religious movement, in fact I planned on keeping it. Christianity seemed important to me. I am realizing lately though that I am no longer mainstream.
I have been discussing church stuff with co-workers. When they find out that I have moved away from Mormonism they are fascinated and want to know all about it. A lot of them are quite religious. Many of them are evangelical types. They seem very concerned that after I let go of the book of Mormon I retain my faith in the bible as God's word. I usually say "sure, of course I have" because talking to evangelicals about the bible is worse than talking to Mormons about the BOM. But really, the bible is worse than the BOM for me. It has some good stuff, but the proportion of bad stuff to good stuff is skewed pretty heavy towards unsavory stuff in the bible. All those arguments that Mormons use to put the book of Mormon higher than the bible are still valid criticisms of the bible even after the BOM is gone.

What do you guys think? Do you cling to the bible more, less, about the same? Do you just not even care any more? If I had a gun to my head and had to choose between the BOM or the Bible to follow accurately and consistently, I think I would pick the BOM. What about you?
I should clarify that I am talking about the Old Testament and the New.

[MoPag]

My Christian friends always said that since some parts of the Bible can be verified by historical documents then the whole thing has to be true. Or they would say that God wrote it, so it is all true. But if it works for them, it works for them.

I choose to regard scripture as myths. Maybe some of the stories are based on some truth. But really, it's about what I can take from the stories. How do they help me in my life? Do they give me courage, or help me see from a different perspective? Do they make me want to be kinder? Theses are the scripture stories I keep. If they give me false sense of superiority or entitlement, then they aren't for me. It's a mixed bag with both the Bible and BOM. But I'm with you Emower, I would pick BOM too.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

On my mission to the southern US, I used to enjoy using the more ridiculous biblical stories in an attempt to make the BOM story seem more reasonable, or at least equally ridiculous. "See! Talking donkeys and she bears eating kids for making fun of bald people! The gold plates story isn't so bad!"

[BriansThoughtMirror]

I also thought I would end up in some mainstream Christian church. Now I'm a fairly skeptical agnostic. It isn't where I wanted to go.

Have you read "Who Wrote The Bible?" by Richard Friedman? It's a really good explanation of the Documentary hypothesis of the OT, which if I understand correctly, is a pretty mainstream view. I think that scripture is something someone wrote about God. It's what someone wrote after encountering God (if there is a God), or believing they have encountered God. There is some scripture that are just stories someone wrote about God, like Jonah and the whale. They are tall tales, or morality stories. They are intended to be inspiring or instructive. Some stories were written with political motivations, like Daniel. Some are kind of historical. Some are mythic. Some have been changed by being passed down many times, though I don't consider the originals to be strait from God, either.

I agree that all the criticisms of the Bible are still valid, even without the BOM to fix them.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

On my mission to the southern US, I used to enjoy using the more rediculous biblical stories in an attempt to make the BOM story seem more reasonable, or at least equally rediculous. "See! Talking donkeys and she bears eating kids for making fun of bald people! The gold plates story isn't so bad!"

Hahahaha!!! This cracked me up!

[wtfluff]

Do you cling to the bible more, less, about the same?

Less clinging. None at all in fact.

Do you just not even care any more?

This is probably where I'm at really. Kind of like apatheism: When it comes right down to it, it doesn't really matter.

If I had a gun to my head and had to choose between the BOM or the Bible to follow accurately and consistently, I think I would pick the BOM. What about you?

If I choose neither is the person holding the gun really going to follow through? Maybe I'd pull the mormon: "Die for your beliefs = instant ticket to the celestial kingdom" card, and "bite the bullet" so-to-say. Honestly if we have to follow some historical fiction book accurately and consistently, there are much better options that the bible or the bom...

[Red Ryder]

I consider myself an apathetic agnostic.

I'd rather have an extra day of the weekend to do whatever I want verses dressing up (appropriately) for any Sunday service.

I, like MoPag, find it all to be a myth that I don't care to entertain beyond Christmas and Easter.

If I had a gun to my head and had to choose between the BOM or the Bible to follow accurately and consistently...

I would pick the bullet.

I'm also hoping for reincarnation so I can come back as my dog. She lives a good life!

[Emower]

If I had a gun to my head and had to choose between the BOM or the Bible to follow accurately and consistently...

I would pick the bullet.

I'm also hoping for reincarnation so I can come back as my dog. She lives a good life!

I find this weird though. None of us here are down with the Book of Mormon anymore, but really what is so objectionable that it commands you to do? There are elements that are certainly unsavory like the racism, divine decapitations, burning innocent people, etc. It really doesnt command much in the way of action though apart from Baptism, a vague admonition to hold out to the end, take the name of christ on you, give to the poor, and legally prosecute those people who dont believe as you do. Contrast that to the bible which has all kinds of crazy things that God asks a guy to do.

[deacon blues]

I’m a little bit on the Unitarian side of mainstream. I’m attending a friendly Presbyterian Church about 50% of the time, and enjoy the discussions in our Sunday School class. I also enjoy the pastor’s sermons because they are informed by mainstream scholarship. I’m very leery of joining. I don’t want to get burned by another church.

I like King Benjamin’a sermon, but a lot of the BOM seems to be basic 19th century Christianity with heaven, hell, etc. I like the Sermon on the Mount but we already have Matthew’s and Luke’s versions. Nephi/Joseph Smith’s version doesn’t seem to add that much.

[slavereeno]

I could

I would pick the bullet.

I would pick the bible, rip out the 4 gospels and burn the rest with fire. I don't take the gospels literally, but there are some good teachings in there, that would help me relate to a great many people.

[Emower]

Nephi/Joseph Smith’s version doesn’t seem to add that much.

I dont think it does either, but what I think it does is captures some of the essence important stuff while leaving out some of the more awful stuff? Maybe that is just my perception.

[RubinHighlander]

All those arguments that Mormons use to put the book of Mormon higher than the bible are still valid criticisms of the bible even after the BOM is gone.

Yup, I had the same thought process. I thought I could hold on to some version of the NT Jesus and writings and cherry pick from the OT, but it quickly unraveled because of problems with historical facts about who actually wrote what when. The more I looked into it the more it unraveled and it seemed there was no way to sort out what might have been legit vs. embellished and made up. Grant Palmer did a good job creating a postMo relationship with Jesus, but I just couldn't do it. Too many other loose threads with Christianity in general and religions in general. Mormonism puts you in a difficult place if you had spent anytime studying the history of Christianity and the great apostasy. Just like JS, you come to the conclusion that none of them are right and if Mormonism is wrong then you are back at square one.

Then there was the problem where I experimented with living like there was no angel or devil on my shoulder at all and that led me to believe there probably wasn't a white haired old man dabbling in human affairs, that it was all just emotional BS. That was backed up with statistics that showed no change in outcome to major medical events based on prayers or no prayers.

I came to feel much better about leaving all the religions behind and quickly filled the gap with more time in nature and just enjoying life with family and friends, no longer burdened with fear and guilt or attributing good and bad to an unseen being.

I began to see how religion in general has been harmful to humanity more than it has helped. Morality was a human thing, not something you only get in a church or dogma.

So the statement that the LDS church produces more atheists and agnostics than any other religion is probably true. I for one, don't think that is a bad thing! I'm not 100% atheist, I just don't know. I don't think I need to know because that gap is something that leads people down the path to religious BS and pseudoscience BS, which is a waist of time and money IMO.

[Reuben]

I would pick the bible, rip out the 4 gospels and burn the rest with fire. I don't take the gospels literally, but there are some good teachings in there, that would help me relate to a great many people.

That's what I would do. After everything, I find myself a nonliterally believing Christian. Or an agnostic that thinks Jesus as written is actually a pretty alright and progressive guy.

I find him intriguing and inspiring. So much of what he did and taught was about breaking down the barriers that his people had erected between themselves and those they thought weren't good enough. I see those kinds of barriers everywhere now.

[Hagoth]

The more I learn about other religions the more I realize that Christianity is just one among many that are equally unverifiable. I believe in Jesus of Nazareth and I love a lot of the sayings that were attributed to him, but a some of his supposed teachings contradict others. The people who wrote the gospels never knew Jesus or had any way of knowing what he actually said or did. A LOT of what he said and did bears too much resemblance to other religions of the time.

The Old Testament has some amazing fables in it but it is certainly the most misunderstood and poorly reinterpreted book ever written.

[Give It Time]

The Bible is the playbook for destroying the goddess-based religions and, by extension dominating, oppressing and demeaning women. Some nice stories, guidelines and thoughts, but overall, not a fan.

Book of Mormon, being Biblical fan fiction is an improvement, but not much better. Jesus of Nazareth walked among sinners. Jesus of Meso-America destroyed sinners before he would walk among righteous mortals.

The Wiccan Rede is my overall behavioral guide and I read the Tao Te Ching.


The Tao Te Ching has only a line or two that gave me any pause, but only pause, not outrage.

Plus, my written wisdom tradition sounds like a fortune cookie.

Let's see your boring old Bible or Book Of Mormon do that.

[Hagoth]

The Wiccan Rede is my overall behavioral guide and I read the Tao Te Ching.

Both of those share with the Bible the single most important religious concept: the golden rule. It's also in the Koran and most other religious texts. If we could strip away all the unnecessary stuff from those books and leave just that teaching, then we'd have true religion. As it is, it's too easy to skip over that core teaching and go straight to money changer whipping and infidel killing.

[deacon blues]

The Bible is the playbook for destroying the goddess-based religions and, by extension dominating, oppressing and demeaning women. Some nice stories, guidelines and thoughts, but overall, not a fan.

Book of Mormon, being Biblical fan fiction is an improvement, but not much better. Jesus of Nazareth walked among sinners. Jesus of Meso-America destroyed sinners before he would walk among righteous mortals.

The Wiccan Rede is my overall behavioral guide and I read the Tao Te Ching.


The Tao Te Ching has only a line or two that gave me any pause, but only pause, not outrage.

Plus, my written wisdom tradition sounds like a fortune cookie.

Let's see your boring old Bible or Book Of Mormon do that.

I agree that the Bible is very Male-centric. I do think Jesus may have been moving away from that, but it got lost in the writings of his disciples.

[Just This Guy]

For argument sake, is it the Bible that is Male-centric, or the editors who put it together?

Example, I understand that one of the aprocraphical books for the NT is based around a Junia, a woman apostle and church leader. That was left out for whatever reason.

[MoPag]

The Bible is the playbook for destroying the goddess-based religions and, by extension dominating, oppressing and demeaning women. Some nice stories, guidelines and thoughts, but overall, not a fan.

Yes^^^
And really all Abrahamic religions are guilty of this too.

You should check out Flourishing Goddess on YouTube. She's an ex Muslim who converted to Paganism. But she shares stories of Goddesses from all the world religions.

[wtfluff]

I agree that the Bible is very Male-centric. I do think Jesus may have been moving away from that, but it got lost in the writings of his disciples.

Hold on a second...

Jesus' disciples actually wrote stuff down?