Celestial Procreation?

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Hagoth
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Celestial Procreation?

Post by Hagoth » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:03 am

Consiglieri's latest Radio Free Mormon podcast discusses the very perplexing concept in Mormon doctrine that Elohim and his wife/wives are the literal parents of our spirit bodies. I'm to wrap my head around what this actually means.

The Population Reference Bureau estimates that about 107 billion people have ever lived on the earth. Do the Math. Let's say you give God a million years to create the spirits for just this earth (remember he also has to populate all of the other worlds in the universe), including the 1/3 third of his spirit children he kicked out of the house because they wanted to be certain they could come back to him after their earth life. God would be completing a sexual transaction more than once every two minutes, non-stop for a million years. That also assumes that Mrs. God can gestate and give birth in less than two minutes, or that there are many thousands of Mrs. Gods lined up in a 9 month long sex, gestate, birth, sex chain.

I know what you're thinking. You're thinking that my timeframe of a million years is bogus, maybe it took them a billion years. The universe is about 14 billion years old and life has only been possible for the past few billion. How many worlds could God actually populate and and process in that time? If he really wants to populate an entire universe, and if his sole work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, nonstop celestial sex would be the only way to make a dent in it. He is racing against the heat death of the universe.

Now you're thinking: hey, each celestial act could produce thousands of spirit children, and celestial women might be like termite queens, who can generate hundreds and of eggs in their huge, bloated abdomens and pump them out nonstop. Whatever.

How does it apply to us? It's quite an interesting eternal reward for a lifetime of attending meetings, paying tithing, and wearing garments while you mow the lawn.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Celestial Procreation?

Post by Rob4Hope » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:55 am

There is a "harem" idea inherent in the Procreation ideas I've heard presented, and in many cases, a leap of faith that has such big holes in it, you can drive a truck through it.

One thing has ALWAYS perplexed me. I've read multiple NDE accounts, and in those, disembodied spirit persons can pass through those that have physical bodies. Furthermore, when Jesus appeared to the apostles, there is a specific mention that "The door was shut"...meaning he came in through the walls or ceiling. And again, didn't Joseph Smith say that Moroni (or was it Nephi?) came into his room 3 times, right through the ceiling?

How can you give birth to a spirit when that spirit is gunna pass right through the womb because: "Hey...spirits just do that"?

Back in my TBM days, I got so sick and tired of the "Oh, you just have to have faith" bullshiz that I concluded, possibly erroneously, that to stay Mormon I had to turn off my thinking brain. I've met dozens of people who really do just take it in stride by "you just gotta have faith".

With what RFM posted (which was absolutely fascinating!!!), it makes more sense what I was hearing in my younger days about this "spirit" dilemma. It all traces back to trying to harmonize doctrines that fundamentally can't be joined.

Look folks. I'm of the opinion that JS and BY both wanted there to be ongoing non-stop sex...over and over and over. The "eternal reward" is not raising the children--it's making them. All you have to do is look at good old BY as a perfect example (because of the two he was the one who apparently had the children--even Brian Hales wouldn't argue with that). BY was hardly ever around to RAISE THE KIDS. Neither were the other apostles. They just had sex and fathered them--then they were out building the church because hey, raising kids is woman's business.

That is another disparity between what LDS theology teaches and what really happens, for example, historically. Sex is the reward. Raising kids?....well, that is another story because, after all, we are under covenant to sacrifice everything (which would include our children) to build the kingdom...right?

Dump the kids. Lets get out there and build the kingdom. You know,...like JS taking men away from their families for short "7 year" missions while their wives raise the kids. The explanation I've heard from apologists?...."those were different times."

Bullshiz. The same thing happens now with bishops, stake presidents, mission presidents, etc. And especially GAs. Its another lie about the importance of families.

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Ghost
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Re: Celestial Procreation?

Post by Ghost » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:13 am

Perhaps it's an automated external system that's no burden after all. For example, the sealing ordinance creates a link that can be connected to a device. This device attracts intelligences, which on contact are converted to spirits. Higher levels of authority might exude a stronger signal, attracting more intelligences.

I don't mean to trivialize things with this analogy, but I'm picturing the eyes in Pac-Man entering the central chamber to receive their spirit bodies.

Image

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Give It Time
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Re: Celestial Procreation?

Post by Give It Time » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:20 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:03 am
Consiglieri's latest Radio Free Mormon podcast discusses the very perplexing concept in Mormon doctrine that Elohim and his wife/wives are the literal parents of our spirit bodies. I'm to wrap my head around what this actually means.

The Population Reference Bureau estimates that about 107 billion people have ever lived on the earth. Do the Math. Let's say you give God a million years to create the spirits for just this earth (remember he also has to populate all of the other worlds in the universe), including the 1/3 third of his spirit children he kicked out of the house because they wanted to be certain they could come back to him after their earth life. God would be completing a sexual transaction more than once every two minutes, non-stop for a million years. That also assumes that Mrs. God can gestate and give birth in less than two minutes, or that there are many thousands of Mrs. Gods lined up in a 9 month long sex, gestate, birth, sex chain.

I know what you're thinking. You're thinking that my timeframe of a million years is bogus, maybe it took them a billion years. The universe is about 14 billion years old and life has only been possible for the past few billion. How many worlds could God actually populate and and process in that time? If he really wants to populate an entire universe, and if his sole work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, nonstop celestial sex would be the only way to make a dent in it. He is racing against the heat death of the universe.

Now you're thinking: hey, each celestial act could produce thousands of spirit children, and celestial women might be like termite queens, who can generate hundreds and of eggs in their huge, bloated abdomens and pump them out nonstop. Whatever.

How does it apply to us? It's quite an interesting eternal reward for a lifetime of attending meetings, paying tithing, and wearing garments while you mow the lawn.
Women do consider this. They dread it. They hope it won't be true. I read this with NOM eyes and it sounds like Hell. Sheer Hell. Seriously, any of the other eternal outcomes--Celestial Kingdom without exaltation all the way down to outer darkness--sounds better than this. Reincarnation sounds better than this. If I were in the bottom layer of Hell being tormented for my sins for eternity, i would think of the alternative had I been righteous and thank God for sending me to the bottom layer of Hell.

Why don't more women wake up and leave the church? One would think that just sitting down in RS and discussing this scenario would have the RS members resigning before the hour has ended.

Oh, you get your children with you? Doesn't matter. You'll never see them. You'll be too busy being a copulating termite queen.

Final side note. At the start of my faith crisis, I had a very difficult time praying to HF, because he was too busy having sex to hear and answer my prayers. I still think that's plausible, given our doctrine. HF hears and answers our prayers. How? He sets them to Mannheim-Steamroller and they're background music during sex?

I didn't create this circus or the monkeys, I just happen to be a former trapeze girl. If you'll excuse me, it's time for me to get ready for a session of circus.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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Palerider
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Re: Celestial Procreation?

Post by Palerider » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:07 pm

I always envisioned things being much much easier in the CK.

All a "god" has to do is LOOK at his wife and she's pregnant. I had nearly that experience here on earth myself.....

Birthing babies isn't done through sorrow any more but it's more like blowing bubbles....it kind of tickles in a marvelous way...and yes Hagoth, millions of those spirit bubbles are coming forth in profuse happiness.

My main concern is that I own several horses of purebred stock and since Joseph said that animals have spirits, I'm wondering if there are some Equine-gods that I can have dominion over that can produce spirit-bubble fillys and colts when I'm ready to create some worlds?

I mean if gods have to produce human spirits in a particular way it follows that a God wouldn't just "wish" a horse spirit into existence, right? ;)
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Reuben
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Re: Celestial Procreation?

Post by Reuben » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:25 pm

As a TBM, I thought HF lived outside of mortal time. It wouldn't matter how long it took to make all those babies if mortal time didn't advance when eternal time advanced.

Mathematically, there are ways to make this work. They're kind of fun to think about. Gotta be careful about using an eternal spatial dimension as a mortal time dimension, though: it's not possible to have stable orbits in greater than 3 spatial dimensions without adding more time dimensions, which is weird to think about.

I'm not sure whether I regret spending so much time thinking about this crap.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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Hagoth
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Re: Celestial Procreation?

Post by Hagoth » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:49 pm

Reuben wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:25 pm
As a TBM, I thought HF lived outside of mortal time. It wouldn't matter how long it took to make all those babies if mortal time didn't advance when eternal time advanced.

Mathematically, there are ways to make this work. They're kind of fun to think about. Gotta be careful about using an eternal spatial dimension as a mortal time dimension, though: it's not possible to have stable orbits in greater than 3 spatial dimensions without adding more time dimensions, which is weird to think about.

I'm not sure whether I regret spending so much time thinking about this crap.
Now that you mention it, there actually is canonized doctrine about this on the BoA. God is not outside of time but is slowed down relative to our timeframe by a factor of 1000.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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moksha
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Re: Celestial Procreation?

Post by moksha » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:26 pm

Celestial procreation is an adjunct of Polygamy Theology. One was needed for the other to exist. You couldn't sell polygamy on the continual threat of an angel with a drawn sword alone. What was needed was a backstory and reason for continued polygamy. So here is how it works: Celestial polygamy has been going on for billions of years. It is needed to create the spirits of innumerable generations on countless planets. There will be a limited number of worthy priesthood holders with enough keys to get their own planets. When they do get them, they will need a huge sister-wives harem to produce all those spirit babies. So the extra worthy will be put out to stud with his herd, and less worthy males will be in charge of all the work and running the day to day operations for the celestial side of planetary maintenance.

So what will be the gestation term of spiritual pregnancies? President Gordon Hinckley said on the 60 Minutes program that we didn't know much about it.

Hope that helps.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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2bizE
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Re: Celestial Procreation?

Post by 2bizE » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:34 pm

My mind keeps going to the Lord of the Rings when they create and birth the Orcs...
~2bizE

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deacon blues
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Re: Celestial Procreation?

Post by deacon blues » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:01 pm

Dang, I can't follow Consig all the way through that rabbit hole and/or worm hole with out coming up for air. But it seems to me that test tube spirit babies could make things easier all around. Joseph's and Brigham's world didn't even contain such a concept (unless they read Frankenstein) so they couldn't pray about it and receive those kind of answers. They were limited by their culture; and the same way the current Q-15 are limited by Joseph's/Brigham's culture. They have to use it, instead of revelation, combined with a modern world view, to construct their reality and doctrine.
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Emower
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Re: Celestial Procreation?

Post by Emower » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:26 am

This thought process going on in this thread is all the proof needed that the church is not true. Seriously, how weird is this discussion? And the TBM trope that we shouldnt think about it much because there is not much revealed about it is bogus because BY and JS talked about it a lot. It is an important aspect of our early theology and informs a lot of our current theology. Hence, the RFM podcast.

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oliblish
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Re: Celestial Procreation?

Post by oliblish » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:47 am

Are spirits born as fully formed adults? Or are they helpless infants? That would be one incredibly large celestial nursery! Do they need to be breast-fed and burped? Do they need to be potty trained? How does all that stuff work in the spirit world? Do they used disposable diapers or cloth?
Stands next to Kolob, called by the Egyptians Oliblish, which is the next grand governing creation near to the celestial or the place where God resides; holding the key of power also, pertaining to other planets; as revealed from God to Abraham

el-asherah
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Re: Celestial Procreation?

Post by el-asherah » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:22 am

Emower wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:26 am
This thought process going on in this thread is all the proof needed that the church is not true. Seriously, how weird is this discussion? And the TBM trope that we shouldnt think about it much because there is not much revealed about it is bogus because BY and JS talked about it a lot. It is an important aspect of our early theology and informs a lot of our current theology. Hence, the RFM podcast.
Yes the thought process in this thread is beyond weird, but it is about to get weirder. :shock:
I've mentioned this concept before in an earlier thread but it is worth repeating here to flesh out this thread.

So hold on to your seat belts as we descend further down the rabbit hole.

I learned this little tidbit of history while listening to John Larson's Mormon Expression podcast on the Adam God Theory.

Medical knowledge of human sexual reproduction was incomplete in the 1800s. At the time the cultural attitudes were that only men had the power of procreation. Without getting too explicit, men were thought to procreate because well... you can see it, and women were not thought to procreate because well.. you can't see it. Women were viewed as incubators of men's creations. The Mater (as in mother) was thought to come from the women, but the spirit, the pattern (Pater) was thought to come from the man.

So in Joseph Smiths and Brigham Youngs day, this basic misunderstanding of human reproduction got encapsulated into Mormon theology. Since, only men have the power of procreation, and being a God is all about creation, then only men can become Gods and create, and therefore God himself was once a man. Women since they do not have the power of creation are incubators for men's creations, and when a man becomes a God, he needs lots of Goddesses as incubators in order to do a lot of creating of spirit children.

For God the priesthood is his power of creation (not just spirit children, but also creating planets from chaotic matter, etc). Men can have the priesthood for a trial period on earth to see if they are worthy for when then become a God and start doing heavy duty creating. If they are not worthy they can not procreate after their earth life (the TK smoothies). Women can never have the priesthood because they will never have this power of creation. Their role on earth and in heaven is to be mothers and incubators for their husband God. In earlier temple ceremonies a women's husband was her God.

It is interesting to note that there are ZERO canonized revelations in the church that say women can not have the priesthood. But yet they can't due to this mistaken idea from the 1800s that got enshrined into the theology and the institutional inertia of the mindset of the brethren up to now.

Out of this mistaken idea we get - men can become Gods, Gods create through sexual reproduction, polygamy, celestial marriage, women as Goddesses are mothers and incubators to their husband God, men can have the priesthood, women can't, and gender is eternal as in the "Proclamation on the Family". Plus in order to control people - only the brethren (Joseph Smith) have the power to tell God which people can be married forever and become Gods and (later prophets) which families are permitted to be together in heaven.
I say these things in the name of Joshua and Awmen

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Re: Celestial Procreation?

Post by alas » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:44 pm

el-asherah wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:22 am
Emower wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:26 am
This thought process going on in this thread is all the proof needed that the church is not true. Seriously, how weird is this discussion? And the TBM trope that we shouldnt think about it much because there is not much revealed about it is bogus because BY and JS talked about it a lot. It is an important aspect of our early theology and informs a lot of our current theology. Hence, the RFM podcast.
Yes the thought process in this thread is beyond weird, but it is about to get weirder. :shock:
I've mentioned this concept before in an earlier thread but it is worth repeating here to flesh out this thread.

So hold on to your seat belts as we descend further down the rabbit hole.

I learned this little tidbit of history while listening to John Larson's Mormon Expression podcast on the Adam God Theory.

Medical knowledge of human sexual reproduction was incomplete in the 1800s. At the time the cultural attitudes were that only men had the power of procreation. Without getting too explicit, men were thought to procreate because well... you can see it, and women were not thought to procreate because well.. you can't see it. Women were viewed as incubators of men's creations. The Mater (as in mother) was thought to come from the women, but the spirit, the pattern (Pater) was thought to come from the man.

So in Joseph Smiths and Brigham Youngs day, this basic misunderstanding of human reproduction got encapsulated into Mormon theology. Since, only men have the power of procreation, and being a God is all about creation, then only men can become Gods and create, and therefore God himself was once a man. Women since they do not have the power of creation are incubators for men's creations, and when a man becomes a God, he needs lots of Goddesses as incubators in order to do a lot of creating of spirit children.

For God the priesthood is his power of creation (not just spirit children, but also creating planets from chaotic matter, etc). Men can have the priesthood for a trial period on earth to see if they are worthy for when then become a God and start doing heavy duty creating. If they are not worthy they can not procreate after their earth life (the TK smoothies). Women can never have the priesthood because they will never have this power of creation. Their role on earth and in heaven is to be mothers and incubators for their husband God. In earlier temple ceremonies a women's husband was her God.

It is interesting to note that there are ZERO canonized revelations in the church that say women can not have the priesthood. But yet they can't due to this mistaken idea from the 1800s that got enshrined into the theology and the institutional inertia of the mindset of the brethren up to now.

Out of this mistaken idea we get - men can become Gods, Gods create through sexual reproduction, polygamy, celestial marriage, women as Goddesses are mothers and incubators to their husband God, men can have the priesthood, women can't, and gender is eternal as in the "Proclamation on the Family". Plus in order to control people - only the brethren (Joseph Smith) have the power to tell God which people can be married forever and become Gods and (later prophets) which families are permitted to be together in heaven.
The idea that the husband is God to his wives is still inherent in the temple ceremony. It is just not stated openly. The church knows that saying a woman's husband is her God would go over like a lead Moroni, so they never openly SAY it. You have to read between the lines about what is not said and understand *what is done.* The endowment explanation is really only explaining how it is for men. They let everyone assume that they are talking about women too, but they are not. For example, they talk about "The Lord" at the veil. They never specify that for women, it is "her lord". Smaller case on "lord." But when a woman is doing her own endowment if she is about to be married, it is her future husband she finds at the veil, not a proxy for "The Lord". And if she is getting her endowment, but is not about to be married, the man standing proxy is standing in for her future husband, not "The Lord" but who the proxy is standing in for is never explained. Nor is it ever explained outright why a woman finds her husband in the position that the information given to everyone just said was someone standing proxy for The Lord. I have frequently heard women say that their husband stands in proxy for God. Ummm, no, your husband is there because he is God over you.

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Give It Time
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Re: Celestial Procreation?

Post by Give It Time » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:52 pm

Yeah, it's my understanding our doctrine really hasn't changed from the early days. What was explicitly in the temple has merely gone into hiding. I'm not sure where we are on Adam/God. I know it's been disavowed, but the first time I read it, it had the doctrine of Heavenly Father marrying Mary and having sexual relations with her to impregnate her with Jesus. This doctrine is now called "Condescension of God", but I read about it as being an integral part of Adam/God.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren

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2bizE
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Re: Celestial Procreation?

Post by 2bizE » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:53 pm

Was hoping this was going to be about celestial sex...in heaven, sex will be perfect. No pain from endometriosis. No need for viagra. I’m sure my member will be a much better size. No guilt...wait...will there be celestial swingers, or celestial adultery? It a man has 20 wives, what’s wrong with having the visiting teacher, who stopped by to pick up her casserole dish, participate?
Hope this doesn’t thread jack.
~2bizE

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moksha
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Re: Celestial Procreation?

Post by moksha » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:42 am

moksha wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:26 pm
Celestial procreation is an adjunct of Polygamy Theology. One was needed for the other to exist. You couldn't sell polygamy on the continual threat of an angel with a drawn sword alone. What was needed was a backstory and reason for continued polygamy. So here is how it works: Celestial polygamy has been going on for billions of years. It is needed to create the spirits of innumerable generations on countless planets. There will be a limited number of worthy priesthood holders with enough keys to get their own planets. When they do get them, they will need a huge sister-wives harem to produce all those spirit babies. So the extra worthy will be put out to stud with his herd, and less worthy males will be in charge of all the work and running the day to day operations for the celestial side of planetary maintenance.

So what will be the gestation term of spiritual pregnancies? President Gordon Hinckley said on the 60 Minutes program that we didn't know much about it.

Hope that helps.
You know, you are talking about some fairly sacred and secret stuff in that first paragraph. Luckily, everyone here has their NOM recommend signed by the Modhead of Hagoth, Corsair, and Red Ryder. That means everybody can handle the absence of lactobacillus in such a meaty synopsis.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Celestial Procreation?

Post by Rob4Hope » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:59 am

I feel very sad for the billions of TK-smoothies out there.

Since gender is an essential part of eternity (see [the revelation] Family Proclamation), seems sad that a resurrected man will be castrated. I mean after all, even "opinions" of prophets (Joseph Fielding Smith) outweigh the layman's opinion....right?

ulmite
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Re: Celestial Procreation?

Post by ulmite » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:21 pm

Hmmm. It seems to me that Heavenly Parents (who we are told have bodies of flesh and bone) having intercourse would make children with bodies of flesh and bone. So therfore we must be children of the mind, and in that case you get rid of any physical limitations.

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deacon blues
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Re: Celestial Procreation?

Post by deacon blues » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:26 pm

Being a man, I feel I might have an excuse for being surprised at her lengthy and profound post above. I just never thought about it, but alas is exactly right. It just gives me one more reason to believe Joseph was full of the old ——-
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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