The Veil of Forgetfulness?

[deacon blues]

Consig's Mormon discussions broadcast has me thinking about the Pre-existence, and more particularly the 'doctrine' of the "veil of forgetfulness" that is used to explain the pre-existence doctrine. I don't remember much about the the pre-existence in the Standard works. Where does our introduction and understanding of it come from?

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Consig's Mormon discussions broadcast has me thinking about the Pre-existence, and more particularly the 'doctrine' of the "veil of forgetfulness" that is used to explain the pre-existence doctrine. I don't remember much about the the pre-existence in the Standard works. Where does our introduction and understanding of it come from?

I remember this being a very note-worthy topic in Charles harrell's This is my Doctrine book. I'll look it up and post more later.

[2bizE]

Since my iPhone won’t type the letter eye by itself anymore, I’m just using me instead.

Me used to know a lot about the veil of forgetfulness, but me has seemed to forget it all.

[Hagoth]

It's a very nonsensical concept as far as I'm concerned. God's work and glory is to bring to pass our eternal life and exaltation, right? This would be much more achievable if we could remember living with him. But no, we have to live by faith and we're tested on obeying according to what we DON'T remember. But why faith? If we're supposed to return to God anyway, why is faith more essential than knowledge. We won't need that faith in the next life, because we will have knowledge, just like we did before we came to earth. So we only need faith on the earth and lack of it ensures that we CANNOT return to God. This would lead me to believe that God hates his children and has created a scenario full of loopholes for removing them from his will.

We are told that we have to have faith because the only other option is Satan's plan in which we would have been forced to do good. Well, I have a better plan that I wish I would have been allowed to present at the big meeting in heaven. It goes like this. We are born without the veil of forgetfulness. Maybe we don't remember everything from before but we do remember well enough to know God's love without any doubt, and we are allowed to understand without doubt the purpose of this life and the reward for living it well. Jesus lives among us and we can learn from him. The Father appears to everyone and gives occasional State of the Universe Addresses to encourage us and point out ways we might improve. You still have the option to screw things up but your chances of helping God accomplish his primary goal would be much, much higher, which would be good for us and him. I'm pretty certain the 1/3 that followed Satan would have opted for my plan instead and God wouldn't have lost 40 billion or so of his children. I bet his wives are really pissed off about that one.

As it is, such a tiny percentage of God's children ever get to hear his gospel that 99.999% of them will have to hear it after they're dead anyway, which makes the entire purpose of the veil moot.

[deacon blues]

Consig's Mormon discussions broadcast has me thinking about the Pre-existence, and more particularly the 'doctrine' of the "veil of forgetfulness" that is used to explain the pre-existence doctrine. I don't remember much about the the pre-existence in the Standard works. Where does our introduction and understanding of it come from?

I remember this being a very note-worthy topic in Charles harrell's This is my Doctrine book. I'll look it up and post more later.

I just rmembered i have the Harrel book on my kindle. Thanks for the reminder.

[deacon blues]

It's a very nonsensical concept as far as I'm concerned. God's work and glory is to bring to pass our eternal life and exaltation, right? This would be much more achievable if we could remember living with him. But no, we have to live by faith and we're tested on obeying according to what we DON'T remember. But why faith? If we're supposed to return to God anyway, why is faith more essential than knowledge. We won't need that faith in the next life, because we will have knowledge, just like we did before we came to earth. So we only need faith on the earth and lack of it ensures that we CANNOT return to God. This would lead me to believe that God hates his children and has created a scenario full of loopholes for removing them from his will.

We are told that we have to have faith because the only other option is Satan's plan in which we would have been forced to do good. Well, I have a better plan that I wish I would have been allowed to present at the big meeting in heaven. It goes like this. We are born without the veil of forgetfulness. Maybe we don't remember everything from before but we do remember well enough to know God's love without any doubt, and we are allowed to understand without doubt the purpose of this life and the reward for living it well. Jesus lives among us and we can learn from him. The Father appears to everyone and gives occasional State of the Universe Addresses to encourage us and point out ways we might improve. You still have the option to screw things up but your chances of helping God accomplish his primary goal would be much, much higher, which would be good for us and him. I'm pretty certain the 1/3 that followed Satan would have opted for my plan instead and God wouldn't have lost 40 billion or so of his children. I bet his wives are really pissed off about that one.

As it is, such a tiny percentage of God's children ever get to hear his gospel that 99.999% of them will have to hear it after they're dead anyway, which makes the entire purpose of the veil moot.

This makes sense, I've often thought, "If God is no respecter of persons, why doesn't he appear to everybody, like he did to Joseph Smith?" As it is we have to have faith in Joseph Smith as well as Jesus Christ in order to make it to the Celestial Kingdom.

[MalcolmVillager]

It's a very nonsensical concept as far as I'm concerned. God's work and glory is to bring to pass our eternal life and exaltation, right? This would be much more achievable if we could remember living with him. But no, we have to live by faith and we're tested on obeying according to what we DON'T remember. But why faith? If we're supposed to return to God anyway, why is faith more essential than knowledge. We won't need that faith in the next life, because we will have knowledge, just like we did before we came to earth. So we only need faith on the earth and lack of it ensures that we CANNOT return to God. This would lead me to believe that God hates his children and has created a scenario full of loopholes for removing them from his will.

We are told that we have to have faith because the only other option is Satan's plan in which we would have been forced to do good. Well, I have a better plan that I wish I would have been allowed to present at the big meeting in heaven. It goes like this. We are born without the veil of forgetfulness. Maybe we don't remember everything from before but we do remember well enough to know God's love without any doubt, and we are allowed to understand without doubt the purpose of this life and the reward for living it well. Jesus lives among us and we can learn from him. The Father appears to everyone and gives occasional State of the Universe Addresses to encourage us and point out ways we might improve. You still have the option to screw things up but your chances of helping God accomplish his primary goal would be much, much higher, which would be good for us and him. I'm pretty certain the 1/3 that followed Satan would have opted for my plan instead and God wouldn't have lost 40 billion or so of his children. I bet his wives are really pissed off about that one.

As it is, such a tiny percentage of God's children ever get to hear his gospel that 99.999% of them will have to hear it after they're dead anyway, which makes the entire purpose of the veil moot.

When you put it all together like this it seems so absurd. Seriously what have I not been programmed to think?!!! Even my most basic understanding of who I am comes from some speculative and nonsensical BS.

How could anyone know this. The more I study and ponder, the more I realize nobody knows the before or after of our human existence. Those who claim that exclusive glimpse into these unknowable spaces both contradict each other and explain these places in language familiar to their culture.

Seriously it makes me want to never do anything spiritual again. Absolute speculation and yet we bet 10% of our gross, 1/7th of our days, and very decision in life is made based on principles related to this crap.

[Hagoth]

This makes sense, I've often thought, "If God is no respecter of persons, why doesn't he appear to everybody, like he did to Joseph Smith?" As it is we have to have faith in Joseph Smith as well as Jesus Christ in order to make it to the Celestial Kingdom.

Yeah, when you think about it, it's pretty suspicious that obeying God wants always requires you to do what some guy tells you to do, and it's a could be one of any number of guys with contradictory instructions, depending on where and when you lucky/unlucky enough to be born. I could be talking about the difference between Paul and Zarathustra, or Brigham Young and Thomas Monson, or Thomas Monson and Warren Jeffs. In each case you have no choice but to put your trust in the arm of flesh, as they say, or pay eternal consequences.

Couldn't God have at least builgt a huge cliff somewhere with a clear message written or drawn on it so everyone could at least have a common starting block?

[Hagoth]

This makes sense, I've often thought, "If God is no respecter of persons, why doesn't he appear to everybody, like he did to Joseph Smith?" As it is we have to have faith in Joseph Smith as well as Jesus Christ in order to make it to the Celestial Kingdom.

Yeah, when you think about it, it's pretty suspicious that obeying God always requires you to do what some guy tells you to do, and it's a could be one of any number of guys with contradictory instructions, depending on where and when you lucky/unlucky enough to be born. And all of them need your money. I could be talking about the difference between Paul and Zarathustra, or Brigham Young and Thomas Monson, or Thomas Monson and Warren Jeffs. In each case you have no choice but to put your trust in the arm of flesh, as they say, or pay eternal consequences.

Couldn't God have built a huge cliff somewhere with a clear message written or drawn on it so everyone could at least have a common starting block?

I feel like your average 6-year old could explain to God how he could have done a much better job. Human society is a bloody mess because of religion and misunderstanding. Religious leaders like to pin the blame on Satan, but I think God needs to step up and take at least as much responsibility as Al Franken did. Or he can continue to cower behind the Orion nebula, call it all fake news, and just let Satan keep taking the blame (putting on my lightning protection suit now).

[1smartdodog]

Even if you could remember the pre existence you would still need faith to believe this crazy plan was going to work. I see no logical reason to make us forget.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Consig's Mormon discussions broadcast has me thinking about the Pre-existence, and more particularly the 'doctrine' of the "veil of forgetfulness" that is used to explain the pre-existence doctrine. I don't remember much about the the pre-existence in the Standard works. Where does our introduction and understanding of it come from?

I remember this being a very note-worthy topic in Charles harrell's This is my Doctrine book. I'll look it up and post more later.

I just rmembered i have the Harrel book on my kindle. Thanks for the reminder.

I went digging for it in his preexistence chapter and the veil of forgetfullness doesn't get covered. Bummer!

[moksha]

You can tell senior citizens are closer to God since we start to experience this veil of forgetfulness first hand.

[deacon blues]

I read the sections from Charles Harrel's book about the pre-existence, and there is nothing about the Veil of forgetfulness. It's odd the the scriptures don't talk about it either, because it seems like a big, essential part of the plan. It's just tacked on the pre-existence doctrine as an explanation in books, articles, and conference talks. The explanation seems to be: "We'd remember this, and know that everything we are taught about the Plan of Salvation is true, expecept, we DON'T remember all that stuff, so there must be a veil of forgetfulness." The temple implies that Adam and
Eve didn't get the veil until the fall, at least that's my understanding of it- but it doesn't explicitly say it.
What bugs me is that there seems to be no hint of it in ancient scriptures like the bible. None. All that "morning stars" stuff in Job is really about something else.