Brushes with "the other side"?

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:24 am

Jeffrey Long -- God and the Afterlife

Got this book on Audible, and have been listening to finish it off. A lot of it is interesting, but 2 things finally -- FINALLY -- have been addressed: 1) the idea of grace allowing horrible people to walk free; 2) the whole idea of a true religion.

Some of the people who claim NDEs and were able to ask questions have addressed the idea of judgement. This, for me personally, has been perplexing for several reasons: A) it appears that when someone dies they see their life in rerun, but they don't see or seem to reflect on what others have done to them that may have damaged them--they see ONLY what they have done, both good and bad, to others; B) those who act as companions or escorts to the newly deceased person always have an air of non-judgmentalness about them. Its this latter part that is the most troubling. I know some people, for example, who border or fully exist as sociopaths. They don't feel any remorse for things they do, and frankly, don't care. So what happens to them if they get to heaven (or whatever it is), see the movie of their life, and feel nothing as the result? Do they walk free if they have been sadists?

The book explained that when the "movie" was playing back life events, those who experience that are required to feel the consequences of their choices, not only from their own sociopathic perspective, but also from the perspective of those they hurt: all the anguish, sorrow, heartache and terror; or all the happiness, joy, peace and acceptance--whatever the case may be. The point is, this seems to be something that happens to those who have to "learn lessons" from their pasts.

I liked this explanation. It helps.

Another thing in this specific train of thought was addressed directly by the author and harmonizes with some of the NDE reports. Those who are horrible people (and in the book the author used Adolf Hitler as a prime example) can't hide what yhey did. There is a "nakedness" associated with their actions and even thoughts. As a result, there is discomfort that can become unbearable when around those who are cleaner and know how "dirty" and "evil" they have been. This drives people to flock together with those who are similar. This idea is exactly consistent with the book "Return from Tomorrow" by George Ritchie. He saw a field filled with disembodied people who were hurling insults and hate at each other. According to Ritchie, those people were not being held there--they were there by choice, as though they sought each other out intentionally. He wondered why they stayed there, and it dawned on him that perhaps they were there simply because that was the only place they felt they belonged, among those who were the "damned" (by their own choice).

Anyway...Long indicated that a sense of justice DOES appear to exist, as supported by NDEs, as the result of being unable to escape prideful selfish activities that hurt people. We get to feel the consequences of our actions as though we were the recipient, and THAT brings a reality that is inescapable from death--or so the NDEs report.

Now, the second thing was about the "one religion".

A NDE person reported asking the question about which religion was true, and was told they all were, as long as they taught love and kindness; however, religions are man made, and most are filled with rules that are about maintaining power and control--things that are themselves completely against the concept of goodness and fairness.

When I heard this explanation as given by a NDE survivor, I immediately thought about the New Testament and how Jesus never setup a "church". He taught love, kindness, tolerance and faith; he did NOT take names, create a chapel to meet in, require people to conform to a set of rules. The scribes and pharisees did that, something Jesus fought against.

I'll be done with the book by the end of the week. It was a good one. I've enjoyed this.

I've got another one I am reading, and will be done with that probably inside of 2 weeks.

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slavereeno
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by slavereeno » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:43 pm

Lots of great stuff, thanks for the summary! I am following this thread closely

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Ben Davis » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:00 pm

While I was on my mission I had a dream in which a friend of mine from highscool came to say goodbye. Hey said that he wished we would have hung out more etc. then we parted ways. It was really cool cause it felt like I had actually hung out with the guy for a few moments as he was clearly on his way somewhere. Time passes and I really enjoyed that mental break from the stress of the mission. The following mail cycle, this way before email was considered anything but sinful, I got a letter from a friend saying he died in a car crash on the same exact day preceding the night I had my dream. That has never left me.

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:19 am

Blashyrkh wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:22 pm
I once felt an evil spirit in my house so I raised my hand to the square and cast is out and my window broke outwards. 😅
<<Forgive my sarcasm below. I am dealing with some skeptics in my personal life, and they have pissed me OFF!>>

I'm smiling because that is not all that crazy Blashyrkh--though I think you are saying this in jest. The smile at the end or your comment....

I had a brother-in-law who told a story of his mission. He tracted into someone who invited them in and said: "Please wait, my friends are almost here." They waited as this lady told them her spirit friends visited every night at this time. When the time arrived, there were knockings happening around the room, as well as on a window outside. The missionaries turned white with fear. My brother-in-law said he looked out the window and could see it vibrate as though someone were knocking on it,..but there was no one there.

Earthquake!...Must be (the skeptics yarn). Or,..he was telling lies!...or he imagined it!...or what a hallucination that must have been!...

Yeh yeh yeh

Another missionary went down to Haiti. They were right across from the Voodoo temple, and had some interesting stories. One such story which I think I mentioned above somewhere involved an evil spirit (the essence he remembers was evil) and someone being physically picked up and held--as in levitated. It frightened him to the very VERY core. I looked him in the eyeballs and directly cross-examined him. He was telling what he believed was a first hand, first person experience HE HAD himself.

Must have been drugs! We all know they don't do any of that voodoo stuff down there!....Come on ROB!...quit believing that crap!!!!...

Yeh yeh yeh

Another missionary. My brother (oh yeh,..here is a born liar....) was on his mission down in Brazil where there was some of that voodoo spiritualism. He woke up when his bed began to slide across the floor...by itself.

Must have been someone hidden in the room pulling it with a rope or something!....I mean, lets get REAL here!!!

Yeh yeh yeh...

Another friend--fiddling with a ouija board. Thing did some things by itself that he is NOT interested in remembering.... He can't talk about it without shudders.

I could go on.

Its interesting to me that so many people consider such stories speculation or just crap--even when the sources are reliable. Same goes for at least 3 people I know personally who had NDEs. One has burn scars over every part of her visible body (and I haven't asked to see the scars she has covered with clothing). Her eyes are the only part of her that is her--the rest is reconstructed. She had an extensive NDE. You can argue that it was a hallucination, but she has burn-center reports of multiple deaths where she was clinically dead.

Yeh yeh yeh...people don't have those things happen when they die. Its all an elaborate hoax!...

--------------
I wonder how many skeptics would consider sitting down with a ouija board and spending a few hours in a locked room calling on spirits to see if they could get it working....and then play, play play...all the while thinking that this is some stupid thing that is just a game.

Well,..go on then,...play the game. While your at it, ask the spirit (which you don't believe in) to come on in, set up shop where ever they want, and just stick around. Or maybe ask that entity (which you don't believe in), to visit your childs room, and spend as much time in there as they want...with your full approval.

Yeh yeh yeh....its all false and a hoax and not real.

----------------------
<rant over>
----------------------

I know 3 people personally who have had NDEs. I know at least 6 people who have had experiences otherwise--like the missionary ones, as well as others I haven't shared.

Not a single one of them believes they were hallucinating or mistakenly relating what occurred. The most skeptical position I can take personally is to acknowledge something happened that science can't explain. The more believing position is just maybe...possibly...we don't know everything about life, death, conscientiousness, or science.

It is a know fact that conscious thought LITERALLY transforms energy and matter at the quantum level. That is a proven fact.

Wow!...so what we think can actually create something in the physical world, changing energy to matter?

Yeh yeh yeh!....those stupid scientist are making it up. The experiments are flawed!....because <the sarcastic skeptic is back> we ALL KNOW that our minds can NOT affect matter simply by thought. That would imply we don't know everything about our own minds.

yeh yeh yeh

-------------------------------

OK...the rant is really over now. Skeptics are good. Blind prejudice is NOT skepticism,...its blind prejudice. But I like skeptics, because they make me think harder. True learning is seeking to explain away...but when you can't and are left with what was originally there, you are forced to reconsider. Hence, the birth of learning....

I've been listening and reading everything I can about NDEs (for example), and I am completely unconvinced by the inconsistent, constantly changing and flimsy attempts to explain away NDEs that have OOBEs. I've yet to encounter a solid explanation. I'm forced to concede something else is happening--especially with the 3rd party verifications when information is communicated that could ONLY have been known if that OOBE really happened.

I am most convinced by the explanations given by children.

There are tens of thousands of these accounts. And science STILL can't deal with it! Go figure. Maybe science doesn't know everything.

WOW. I wonder why there are so many scientists still doing study, and why there are still revisions to science books, new discoveries published all the time, etc. Could it be that science doesn't know it all?...after all?

yeh yeh yeh...

Sorry. RANT REALLY OVER NOW!!!!

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Thoughtful » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:55 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:19 am
Blashyrkh wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:22 pm
I once felt an evil spirit in my house so I raised my hand to the square and cast is out and my window broke outwards. 😅
<<Forgive my sarcasm below. I am dealing with some skeptics in my personal life, and they have pissed me OFF!>>

I'm smiling because that is not all that crazy Blashyrkh--though I think you are saying this in jest. The smile at the end or your comment....

I had a brother-in-law who told a story of his mission. He tracted into someone who invited them in and said: "Please wait, my friends are almost here." They waited as this lady told them her spirit friends visited every night at this time. When the time arrived, there were knockings happening around the room, as well as on a window outside. The missionaries turned white with fear. My brother-in-law said he looked out the window and could see it vibrate as though someone were knocking on it,..but there was no one there.

Earthquake!...Must be (the skeptics yarn). Or,..he was telling lies!...or he imagined it!...or what a hallucination that must have been!...

Yeh yeh yeh

Another missionary went down to Haiti. They were right across from the Voodoo temple, and had some interesting stories. One such story which I think I mentioned above somewhere involved an evil spirit (the essence he remembers was evil) and someone being physically picked up and held--as in levitated. It frightened him to the very VERY core. I looked him in the eyeballs and directly cross-examined him. He was telling what he believed was a first hand, first person experience HE HAD himself.

Must have been drugs! We all know they don't do any of that voodoo stuff down there!....Come on ROB!...quit believing that crap!!!!...

Yeh yeh yeh

Another missionary. My brother (oh yeh,..here is a born liar....) was on his mission down in Brazil where there was some of that voodoo spiritualism. He woke up when his bed began to slide across the floor...by itself.

Must have been someone hidden in the room pulling it with a rope or something!....I mean, lets get REAL here!!!

Yeh yeh yeh...

Another friend--fiddling with a ouija board. Thing did some things by itself that he is NOT interested in remembering.... He can't talk about it without shudders.

I could go on.

Its interesting to me that so many people consider such stories speculation or just crap--even when the sources are reliable. Same goes for at least 3 people I know personally who had NDEs. One has burn scars over every part of her visible body (and I haven't asked to see the scars she has covered with clothing). Her eyes are the only part of her that is her--the rest is reconstructed. She had an extensive NDE. You can argue that it was a hallucination, but she has burn-center reports of multiple deaths where she was clinically dead.

Yeh yeh yeh...people don't have those things happen when they die. Its all an elaborate hoax!...

--------------
I wonder how many skeptics would consider sitting down with a ouija board and spending a few hours in a locked room calling on spirits to see if they could get it working....and then play, play play...all the while thinking that this is some stupid thing that is just a game.

Well,..go on then,...play the game. While your at it, ask the spirit (which you don't believe in) to come on in, set up shop where ever they want, and just stick around. Or maybe ask that entity (which you don't believe in), to visit your childs room, and spend as much time in there as they want...with your full approval.

Yeh yeh yeh....its all false and a hoax and not real.

----------------------
<rant over>
----------------------

I know 3 people personally who have had NDEs. I know at least 6 people who have had experiences otherwise--like the missionary ones, as well as others I haven't shared.

Not a single one of them believes they were hallucinating or mistakenly relating what occurred. The most skeptical position I can take personally is to acknowledge something happened that science can't explain. The more believing position is just maybe...possibly...we don't know everything about life, death, conscientiousness, or science.

It is a know fact that conscious thought LITERALLY transforms energy and matter at the quantum level. That is a proven fact.

Wow!...so what we think can actually create something in the physical world, changing energy to matter?

Yeh yeh yeh!....those stupid scientist are making it up. The experiments are flawed!....because <the sarcastic skeptic is back> we ALL KNOW that our minds can NOT affect matter simply by thought. That would imply we don't know everything about our own minds.

yeh yeh yeh

-------------------------------

OK...the rant is really over now. Skeptics are good. Blind prejudice is NOT skepticism,...its blind prejudice. But I like skeptics, because they make me think harder. True learning is seeking to explain away...but when you can't and are left with what was originally there, you are forced to reconsider. Hence, the birth of learning....

I've been listening and reading everything I can about NDEs (for example), and I am completely unconvinced by the inconsistent, constantly changing and flimsy attempts to explain away NDEs that have OOBEs. I've yet to encounter a solid explanation. I'm forced to concede something else is happening--especially with the 3rd party verifications when information is communicated that could ONLY have been known if that OOBE really happened.

I am most convinced by the explanations given by children.

There are tens of thousands of these accounts. And science STILL can't deal with it! Go figure. Maybe science doesn't know everything.

WOW. I wonder why there are so many scientists still doing study, and why there are still revisions to science books, new discoveries published all the time, etc. Could it be that science doesn't know it all?...after all?

yeh yeh yeh...

Sorry. RANT REALLY OVER NOW!!!!
Someone over on A Thoughtful Faith on FB just posted a PDF file comprising her research on NDE. I thought of you and of this thread. Are you on that group perchance?

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:23 am

Nope. Not over there.

"A Thoughtful Faith".....

I'll google it...

FLASH. I googled it. Can you send me a URL link or something to help me find it?

Thoughtful
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Thoughtful » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:19 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:23 am
Nope. Not over there.

"A Thoughtful Faith".....

I'll google it...

FLASH. I googled it. Can you send me a URL link or something to help me find it?
It's a group on FB.

I'll see if I can get and send the pdf

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:21 am

Got a new Audible Book.

https://www.audible.com/pd/Doctors-and- ... B06Y29TTNW

Its a collection of online interviews, and is pretty dang good actually. I'm about half-way through. There was an interview with Eben Alexander and Raymond Moody, and both were FASCINATING!!!

Moody talked about the life-review that is common in many NDEs and reiterated a point that we see ourselves from the perspective of how others experience our activities, good or bad, kind or hurtful. Moody also explained that NDEs are EXTREMELY common and for the vast numbers, rather consistent as well.

Oh, Alexander reiterated HEAVILY the idea of what we would call reincarnation, and that there is a correlation between skeptics that are hostile (as opposed to open minded skeptics) and christian religious training in early life. Why?...because reincarnation and resurrection don't play nice; you have to choose one, the other, or do some mental gymnastics to try to harmonize them.

Moody told a veridical story that was hilarious but also quite fascinating. A surgeon approached him after one of his lectures and related (Paraphrased) the following:

I was performing an elective (Not serious) surgery on a man who was under anesthesia. He went into cardiac arrest and I couldn't revive him. I was surprised because this was NOT a normal reaction for this sedation, and I was frustrated because I couldn't review him. A woman came bursting in from the hallway with hysterical eyes and face screaming: "MY HUSBAND IS NOT DEAD!!!". My first reaction was what is this lunatic doing in here. After a moment, I looked back at the patient and tried to revive him again, and it worked. When he came to later on, he told me that he saw me doing the surgery from the vantage point of hovering over his body. He didn't understand what was going on and then realized he must be dead. He screamed at me that he wasn't dead, and I didn't listen,...so he ran out into the hallway where his wife was sitting and told her: "I'M NOT DEAD". She got the message and ran into the surgery room.

----
Another thing Dr. Alexander mentioned is that until science can wrap its arms around the idea that consciousness can exist outside of the physical body, they will never be able to quite close the loop on quantum measurement and other problems that come up in physics. When he said that, I remembered the ASTONISHING review given by Dr. Dean Radin PhD on consciousness. Check it out here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRSBaq3vAeY

----

Its all pretty interesting stuff.

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:18 am

Another interesting piece of info from that audio book above. It appears that many people are VERY surprised when going through an NDE to find religions are considered man-made over there, that they are more geared at controlling people than teaching light and truth, and that they completely miss the point. Many NDE people report that people DO congregate amongst their "own kind", meaning they want to be among like-minded souls. Because of this, a certain amount of belief-persistence continues.

Every single NON LDS NDE report i've read, where they went into the NDE deeply, supports reincarnation. ONLY the LDS ones report resurrection, and the few that do that always specifically relate it to Joseph and Hyrum as resurrected individuals. The playing field is VASTLY against the whole idea of resurrection--it leans HEAVILY toward reincarnation where we keep coming back until we learn the lessons required. Those lessons are how to love. Period.

One of the medical doctor NDE survivors gave an analogy that is fitting about the "proof" concept of NDE. She said that you could be told by a friend that "The best hamburger in the WORLD is at this restaurant." You would probably discount this advice. Now suppose that 30 additional people told you that. Would you still consider it hearsay and not true? What would happen if a MILLION people told you that? Pretty soon in there you may begin to consider that maybe there is something to it. After all, you have a MILLION people telling you the same thing.....so maybe its worth a look.

That is what is happening in the NDE arena. There are MILLIONS of people who have had these, and there are thousands, tens of thousands, and maybe even hundreds of thousands of recorded events. What is capturing attention now are the veridical events where 3rd party witnesses can validate that ONLY someone who was having a psychic experience could have reported what happened. There are thousands of these types of events happening now. I'm reading a book on this as well, and it is fascinating.

Now, put this NDE phenomena in the context of science beginning to accept that consciousness affects matter. In fact, one scientist who is rather renowned even went so far as to say that matter doesn't even EXIST until it is observed. Science has no idea what to do about consciousness, but they are being forced to conclude it affects our very reality.

The deck is getting pretty stacked about this whole "other side" issue.

Thoughts?

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by jfro18 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:41 am

I'm new to the group, but I wanted to add one that always stuck with me...

So my grandfather was terminally ill, and my Aunt and Uncle lived near him (we were across the country so i visited a few times and my mom was going monthly to see him). Anyway... my Aunt and Uncle spent a lot of time with him, and near the end he would be in and out a lot where he just made no sense.

Anyway -- one day he 'wakes up' from being really out if and looks at my Aunt and says "Michael says that everything is OK. He wanted you to know."

So my Aunt and Uncle leave after that (they are both divorced so this is their second marriage), and my Aunt tells my Uncle that during her first marriage she had a miscarriage. My Uncle knew that, but what he didn't know is that my Aunt and her first husband already decided on the name Michael before the miscarriage happened.

Now that by itself is obviously not proof of the 'other side,' I know, but it has always stuck with me as one of those stories that just has that paranormal impact.

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:11 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:41 am
I'm new to the group, but I wanted to add one that always stuck with me...

So my grandfather was terminally ill, and my Aunt and Uncle lived near him (we were across the country so i visited a few times and my mom was going monthly to see him). Anyway... my Aunt and Uncle spent a lot of time with him, and near the end he would be in and out a lot where he just made no sense.

Anyway -- one day he 'wakes up' from being really out if and looks at my Aunt and says "Michael says that everything is OK. He wanted you to know."

So my Aunt and Uncle leave after that (they are both divorced so this is their second marriage), and my Aunt tells my Uncle that during her first marriage she had a miscarriage. My Uncle knew that, but what he didn't know is that my Aunt and her first husband already decided on the name Michael before the miscarriage happened.

Now that by itself is obviously not proof of the 'other side,' I know, but it has always stuck with me as one of those stories that just has that paranormal impact.



Hey jfro18,...welcome to this site. Lots of things are discussed here.

Your example would almost qualify as "veridical"...meaning 3rd party verifiable. It would require proving that your grandfather didn't know, and had now way of knowing that the unborn child was going to be named Michael. Its a totally awsome account. Thanks for sharing.

I have a NDE in my family. It doesn't qualify as a fully veridical one, but its very interesting. Its heavily LDS.

I struggle to reconcile some of those LDS ones, because they are so very skewed...as though they are the ONLY way to believe things.

Anyway, thanks for sharing. Totally awsome to have you on board!...

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:48 am

Its reincarnation folks. I have found ZERO evidence from NDE about anything resurrection related.

The only reference I've ever encountered is from an LDS source, and that one looked a lot like hero worship and telling how JS and HS were advanced enough they needed their bodies, so were resurrected.

You know....DANG it would be fun to do some type of search using sonar or whatever and see if the bones of those two are still in the ground.....!!!

Just sayin...

PS. I don't read much into the LDS sources because I have since become VERY familiar with the post-fact changing of history to support the narrative lies. The church is filled with this, including but not limited to how BY put Section 132 into the book! And, the interesting changes to the First Vision!

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Arcturus » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:51 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:18 am
Every single NON LDS NDE report i've read, where they went into the NDE deeply, supports reincarnation... The playing field is VASTLY against the whole idea of resurrection--it leans HEAVILY toward reincarnation where we keep coming back until we learn the lessons required. Those lessons are how to love. Period.
Rob4Hope - have you come across any ideas of what the bar is to stop the reincarnation process? Is there an objective threshold for the love you need to develop for the cycle to stop?

Haven’t heard of the reincarnation angle before, but haven’t studied near as much as you appear to have done. But that idea is interesting, and potentially a little scary to have to stay in a hamster wheel for who knows how long...
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Tue May 01, 2018 7:36 am

Arcturus wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:51 pm
Rob4Hope wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:18 am
Every single NON LDS NDE report i've read, where they went into the NDE deeply, supports reincarnation... The playing field is VASTLY against the whole idea of resurrection--it leans HEAVILY toward reincarnation where we keep coming back until we learn the lessons required. Those lessons are how to love. Period.
Rob4Hope - have you come across any ideas of what the bar is to stop the reincarnation process? Is there an objective threshold for the love you need to develop for the cycle to stop?

Haven’t heard of the reincarnation angle before, but haven’t studied near as much as you appear to have done. But that idea is interesting, and potentially a little scary to have to stay in a hamster wheel for who knows how long...
Hello Arcturus,...

You know, I've approached this from an open mind with the intent of letting the data lead me to whatever conclusions, if any, there are. I wasn't originally open to the reincarnation angle--my mind was prejudiced against it from my upbringing. I became aware of my prejudiced leanings very early and have worked with myself over it, trying to find a way to let go if possible.

I've looked for angles to harmonize the reincarnation idea with resurrection. Your suggestion above seems to support that--the idea of going through enough experience to FINALLY arrive at a place where you are done, culminating with resurrection. I have to state, however, that the only concept of resurrection I've encountered in the NDE literature is LDS, and then as I mentioned, ONLY associated with JS and HS.

However, those who are talking about reincarnation do put a spin on it that is comforting. Like you, I don't want to be on the "hamster wheel" either.

What these NDE folks say (paraphrased):
1. The purpose of coming back over and over is to learn from experience that welds itself down into the very fabric of our consciousness, that love is the key to everything. The only way to do that is to encounter opposition where we learn the whole truth and why to value love intrinsically.
2. We have a large degree of choice over where we go if we choose to come back. However, free will can and does influence everything from that point forward, so it doesn't always turn out as planned.
3. We don't have to come back if we don't want to. Or, to put it another way, we get to delay and "heal" -- yes, that very word was used in the literature.
4. Sometimes we regress if we turn to hate. If that happens, it makes the road more difficult.
5. Once we get to a certain place (and this is the tricky part I don't know enough about yet Arcturus), it appears we can remain in the world of spirits and be a supporting guide to help others along the pathway. But, the impression I got was we do NOT take up our body (or last body we had), but remain a spiritual entity which is our true self.

It is interesting that the Christian tradition is the place where resurrection is taught, but as far as I know, only the LDS tradition teaches that resurrection is required for experiencing pure and complete joy. The literature doesn't support this--joy is experienced in that realm: is constant, available always, and indescribable.

I don't want to hijack my own thread--but it appears from reading about JS that sex seemed to be the end goal of resurrection. I can't help but wonder if JS felt that without sexual expression, fullness of joy is not possible. THAT, from everything I have read, is false--what we feel and experience on the "other side" transcends EVERYTHING on this side, and is much deeper and meaningful than sexual ecstasy.

Anyway, the point is I have not found any stories out there indicating physical flesh is required for advancement and joy in the spirit world. And, we do have a degree of choice with regards to reincarnation--its frequency, duration, and how long we can wait between events. If we turn to love here, the more advanced we become there, and there comes a point where there is no need for additional learning events.

It appears we have an innate desire to advance in the commodity that exists on that side (which is love and compassion--THAT is the medium of exchange over there, and the only thing that matters). Its that innate desire to advance that prompts us, over time, to choose to return.

This is where the literature leads.

PS. Folks, there are too many of these accounts, backed by medical records of confirmed death and resuscitation, to just discount this phenomena. Eban Alexander (who is an outspoken and HIGHLY qualify NDE survivor) believes we are on the cusp where science will be forced to accept that "consciousness" is the indispensable component of reality that must be incorporated into research BEFORE science will be able to bridge the measurement problems they currently grapple with.

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Tue May 01, 2018 7:43 am

OK...one more thing.

We have a long tradition in the LDS church of discounting "soothsayers" and necromancy...etc. The idea of listening to the spirits of the dead reach over and prompt us is anathema to LDS doctrine.

But, I CAN NOT harmonize this concept with the whole idea of a Patriarchal Blessing. So, this man lays his hands on your head, and opens himself to the "spirit" which whispers through him to pronounce a prophetic blessing?

I've read MANY LDS accounts where the leaders (as in GA type folks) speak of how deceased loved-ones come back to give messages, provide support and comfort, and even provide promptings or warnings.

HELLO OUT THERE!!!!!!!!

This is "soothsaying" and "necromancy".

The LDS perspective is schizophrenic!

This is one of the reasons I know the LDS is about power, not about support and love. You see, its OK for a LDS authority to talk about dead people coming back and providing support, but its sorcery and witchcraft for others to talk about exactly the same thing.

Nope. Not buying it.

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hiding in plain sight
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by hiding in plain sight » Tue May 01, 2018 7:49 am

I have a co-worker that loved to go ghost hunting. She would visit graveyards and talk to graves asking questions. She would record her conversations and then go back and listen if any one answered her. I would listen to her recordings and there were audible voices there. The voices would respond cogently to her questions and you could tell differences in the people talking. Some were children. Some were women. Some had accents.

It could have been one elaborate scam, but she kept it up for years and I was with her on a couple of her excursions and my voice was on the tape as well as the answers. So I know for sure there was no way to falsify some of them.

Who knows?

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Tue May 01, 2018 8:04 am

hiding in plain sight wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 7:49 am
I have a co-worker that loved to go ghost hunting. She would visit graveyards and talk to graves asking questions. She would record her conversations and then go back and listen if any one answered her. I would listen to her recordings and there were audible voices there. The voices would respond cogently to her questions and you could tell differences in the people talking. Some were children. Some were women. Some had accents.

It could have been one elaborate scam, but she kept it up for years and I was with her on a couple of her excursions and my voice was on the tape as well as the answers. So I know for sure there was no way to falsify some of them.

Who knows?
There are lots of loved ones of deceased who speak of such things. There are paranormal groups that have things to say--and some of it you can't just discount. I agree,..who knows?

--------------

Oh, just an aside and of interest, one book I got about psychics (Yep,..I'm looking at all sources) talks about ouija boards. The psychics who appear credible in the work (and there were some that had a HIGH degree of credibility) all say that sooth-saying devices like ouija boards are DANGEROUS. They do provide a medium for communication to spiritual entities, but they connect to anything out there that "shows up". Not all spirits, according to the book, are benevolent. Some are down right evil....and when those show up, you could be in some danger.

Just an interesting point.

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Arcturus » Tue May 01, 2018 2:48 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:18 am

It appears we have an innate desire to advance in the commodity that exists on that side (which is love and compassion--THAT is the medium of exchange over there, and the only thing that matters). Its that innate desire to advance that prompts us, over time, to choose to return.
Very interesting. Thanks for the thoughts Rob4Hope. "The commodity that exists on that side... love and compassion... the only thing that matters." That really resonates with me. Hope it's true.

What studies identify the reincarnation angle? Specifically, are you finding that (reincarnation) discussed in Jeffrey Long's research?
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Wed May 02, 2018 8:28 am

Arcturus wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 2:48 pm
Rob4Hope wrote:
Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:18 am

It appears we have an innate desire to advance in the commodity that exists on that side (which is love and compassion--THAT is the medium of exchange over there, and the only thing that matters). Its that innate desire to advance that prompts us, over time, to choose to return.
Very interesting. Thanks for the thoughts Rob4Hope. "The commodity that exists on that side... love and compassion... the only thing that matters." That really resonates with me. Hope it's true.

What studies identify the reincarnation angle? Specifically, are you finding that (reincarnation) discussed in Jeffrey Long's research?
Jeffery Long is one of the names showing up in the books I"m reading.

This topic of NDE and what they say is SOOOOOO LARGE, I'm having to rely on statistical conclusions the authors, those that are researchers and those that have experienced it, report.

I've probably read about 10 books on it. I have at least another 10 or more I want to get through. But, from what I'm reading, it appears reincarnation comes up over and over (no pun intended), and resurrection isn't even discussed. Its conspicuously absent from the narratives.

My first question in regards to this is WHY? Why is it not there? This is eternal truth,....right?

This throws into question the first doctrine that came to mind when I considered why resurrection isn't even mentioned; namely, children being saved in Celestial spheres (which requires resurrection according to JS) as soon as they pass. Resurrection is a one-shot deal--if you mess up during your one chance, you are screwed!...

Yep. The literature on NDE is not supporting this. Hopefully its just something I haven't uncovered yet. I'm starting to wonder if its really out there that much though...

Arcturus
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Arcturus » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:28 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 8:28 am

This topic of NDE and what they say is SOOOOOO LARGE, I'm having to rely on statistical conclusions the authors, those that are researchers and those that have experienced it, report.
Sorry to resurrect this thread, but had some questions for Rob4Hope.

Rob4Hope - I'm going to take liberty and name you the NOM-resident expert on NDE stuff... I've been thinking all of this lately and wanted to throw a few questions at you, wondering if you can recall anything from your NDE studies.

Questions:

1) Do NDE survivors report anything about prayer? Specifically, importance of prayer, does God like us to pray? What to pray for? What does prayer do?

2) To what extent is God involved in the day-to-day happenings for human beings? If life is meant to be a learning experience, and if reincarnation is a common data point, it would seem that God doesn't necessarily need to be intimately involved in his creation if it is meant to advance/develop on its own??
“How valuable is a faith that is dependent on the maintenance of ignorance? If faith can only thrive in the absence of the knowledge of its origins, history, and competing theological concepts, then what is it we really have to hold on to?”
D Brisbin

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