Brushes with "the other side"?

[Rob4Hope]

This topic of NDE and what they say is SOOOOOO LARGE, I'm having to rely on statistical conclusions the authors, those that are researchers and those that have experienced it, report.

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but had some questions for Rob4Hope.

Rob4Hope - I'm going to take liberty and name you the NOM-resident expert on NDE stuff... I've been thinking all of this lately and wanted to throw a few questions at you, wondering if you can recall anything from your NDE studies.

Questions:

1) Do NDE survivors report anything about prayer? Specifically, importance of prayer, does God like us to pray? What to pray for? What does prayer do?

2) To what extent is God involved in the day-to-day happenings for human beings? If life is meant to be a learning experience, and if reincarnation is a common data point, it would seem that God doesn't necessarily need to be intimately involved in his creation if it is meant to advance/develop on its own??

I have no problem responding. With regards to #1, there isn't a lot mentioned other than prayer is a way to align oneself to a more "love centric" modality. It appears from the research that "love" is literally the most important aspect of growth, cohesion and creativity for us. Love in that realm is more than just an emotion or an intent--it actually manifests in the "glory" that so many report. That glory or "light" manifests differently in individuals, and is a discernable indicator of a person's advancement. The more love a person has, the brighter the light. Those who claim seeing God were without words to describe what they saw. The light was absolutely outside of description in its beauty and magnitude. There are a lot that report this.

With regards to specific prayer, I believe I've read reports that it has influence, but that influence is usually affected by others than God. For example, many people inside of a NDE actually chose to come back BECAUSE someone basically prayed them back. There are reports of people being made privy to the prayers of others, and choosing to act on those prayers to assist.

Your question is interesting, and if I encounter something else as I study,...I try to report it.

#2 is perplexing with regards to the God. Now I did mention the God idea in #1 above...but there are quite a few NDEs that don't talk about God. If they do, they differ in certain ways. Some see a male figure. Some experience a presence or somehow know that a master controller exists. Male or Female is not always there--sometimes its just an IT. One thing that is always identified with whatever God is, consistently, is this love factor. Whatever this individual is, the most persistent characteristic is love.

Now, with regards to the "learning experience"...YES, this is heavily reported in the literature. IN fact, the entire reason we are here, according to NDE folks, is to learn, or help someone else learn. And to be honest, I've seen MANY references to reincarnation. I have not seen a single non-LDS reference to resurrection. Not one.

Many individuals report that they were shown aspects of their prior lives as part of their NDE. One woman reported that she had lived other lives AS A MAN! When I read that, it REALLY got me thinking when I considered the entire LGBTQ issue that has torn so many religions up.

It appears the ultimate goal is for us to achieve some type of mature state, progressing from experience to experience as we meld our way through time. It does seem that God's immediate involvement in our lives may be minimal--but the impression from the literature is that God's involvement is not the main focus--OUR involvement is. Lots of references to family members trying to help (as in dead family members), dear friends who we perhaps knew and loved before trying to help and intervene, etc. In all of the GOOD NDEs, there is usually a guide that is assigned to assist, so it appears there is a type of order and power-structure.

I will keep my mind open to these topics as I read more. A big portion of what I have been looking for is the entire link between science and NDEs, and also if there is a purpose at all. I am becoming satisfied with both...but some of the details have alluded me because these BIG topics (big for me) have been my primary focus.

[alas]

Got a new Audible Book.

https://www.audible.com/pd/Doctors-and- ... B06Y29TTNW

Its a collection of online interviews, and is pretty dang good actually. I'm about half-way through. There was an interview with Eben Alexander and Raymond Moody, and both were FASCINATING!!!

Moody talked about the life-review that is common in many NDEs and reiterated a point that we see ourselves from the perspective of how others experience our activities, good or bad, kind or hurtful. Moody also explained that NDEs are EXTREMELY common and for the vast numbers, rather consistent as well.

Oh, Alexander reiterated HEAVILY the idea of what we would call reincarnation, and that there is a correlation between skeptics that are hostile (as opposed to open minded skeptics) and christian religious training in early life. Why?...because reincarnation and resurrection don't play nice; you have to choose one, the other, or do some mental gymnastics to try to harmonize them.

Moody told a veridical story that was hilarious but also quite fascinating. A surgeon approached him after one of his lectures and related (Paraphrased) the following:

I was performing an elective (Not serious) surgery on a man who was under anesthesia. He went into cardiac arrest and I couldn't revive him. I was surprised because this was NOT a normal reaction for this sedation, and I was frustrated because I couldn't review him. A woman came bursting in from the hallway with hysterical eyes and face screaming: "MY HUSBAND IS NOT DEAD!!!". My first reaction was what is this lunatic doing in here. After a moment, I looked back at the patient and tried to revive him again, and it worked. When he came to later on, he told me that he saw me doing the surgery from the vantage point of hovering over his body. He didn't understand what was going on and then realized he must be dead. He screamed at me that he wasn't dead, and I didn't listen,...so he ran out into the hallway where his wife was sitting and told her: "I'M NOT DEAD". She got the message and ran into the surgery room.

----
Another thing Dr. Alexander mentioned is that until science can wrap its arms around the idea that consciousness can exist outside of the physical body, they will never be able to quite close the loop on quantum measurement and other problems that come up in physics. When he said that, I remembered the ASTONISHING review given by Dr. Dean Radin PhD on consciousness. Check it out here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRSBaq3vAeY

----

Its all pretty interesting stuff.

This life review idea was shown to me in what I can nay call a vision, as in the religious meaning of the word. I don’t tell many people about this vision because it’s cmplicated. It has to do with the Mormon church teaching me about it’s screwed up version of the atonement, where my sexually abusive father tells God he is sorry, and he is forever off the hook, when really, he has zero comprehension of how what he did screwed up my life for years. But, I do love my dad and I don’t exactly want him punished forever either. I don’t want him punished AT ALL. What I want is for him to understand what it did to my life. I don’t want him punished, but I don’t want him getting off Scott free either.

So, this point in my praying about it is when this vision came. In it I was shown my father having to feel every bit of pain that he caused me, every bit of pain he caused my mother. His inability to empathize or understand that other people have feelings was gone and so was his own emotional flatness. He was feeling things for the first time since this reincarnation started. Then his spirit guide, said, “this is what love is.” And my father was shown and felt the most wonderful unconditional love, directed at him. Then the spirit guide said, “And this is what you did.” And returned to feeling all the pain he had caused. This vision was both beautiful and terrifying.

[Arcturus]

I will keep my mind open to these topics as I read more. A big portion of what I have been looking for is the entire link between science and NDEs, and also if there is a purpose at all. I am becoming satisfied with both...but some of the details have alluded me because these BIG topics (big for me) have been my primary focus.

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing Rob4Hope. What would be your recommendation for top 3 reads on NDE?

[Rob4Hope]

I will keep my mind open to these topics as I read more. A big portion of what I have been looking for is the entire link between science and NDEs, and also if there is a purpose at all. I am becoming satisfied with both...but some of the details have alluded me because these BIG topics (big for me) have been my primary focus.

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing Rob4Hope. What would be your recommendation for top 3 reads on NDE?

I recommend the latest IANDS "veretical proof" book --> The Self Does Not Die. This is a book of 3rd party verified type proofs. Its for skeptics and is compelling IMHO. You should read (if you haven't) George Ritchie's book Return From Tomorrow, and also Raymond Moody's book Life After Life.

I would consider these books staples. They are the beginning, or at least were for me.

[Rob4Hope]

Got a new Audible Book.

https://www.audible.com/pd/Doctors-and- ... B06Y29TTNW

Its a collection of online interviews, and is pretty dang good actually. I'm about half-way through. There was an interview with Eben Alexander and Raymond Moody, and both were FASCINATING!!!

Moody talked about the life-review that is common in many NDEs and reiterated a point that we see ourselves from the perspective of how others experience our activities, good or bad, kind or hurtful. Moody also explained that NDEs are EXTREMELY common and for the vast numbers, rather consistent as well.

Oh, Alexander reiterated HEAVILY the idea of what we would call reincarnation, and that there is a correlation between skeptics that are hostile (as opposed to open minded skeptics) and christian religious training in early life. Why?...because reincarnation and resurrection don't play nice; you have to choose one, the other, or do some mental gymnastics to try to harmonize them.

Moody told a veridical story that was hilarious but also quite fascinating. A surgeon approached him after one of his lectures and related (Paraphrased) the following:

I was performing an elective (Not serious) surgery on a man who was under anesthesia. He went into cardiac arrest and I couldn't revive him. I was surprised because this was NOT a normal reaction for this sedation, and I was frustrated because I couldn't review him. A woman came bursting in from the hallway with hysterical eyes and face screaming: "MY HUSBAND IS NOT DEAD!!!". My first reaction was what is this lunatic doing in here. After a moment, I looked back at the patient and tried to revive him again, and it worked. When he came to later on, he told me that he saw me doing the surgery from the vantage point of hovering over his body. He didn't understand what was going on and then realized he must be dead. He screamed at me that he wasn't dead, and I didn't listen,...so he ran out into the hallway where his wife was sitting and told her: "I'M NOT DEAD". She got the message and ran into the surgery room.

----
Another thing Dr. Alexander mentioned is that until science can wrap its arms around the idea that consciousness can exist outside of the physical body, they will never be able to quite close the loop on quantum measurement and other problems that come up in physics. When he said that, I remembered the ASTONISHING review given by Dr. Dean Radin PhD on consciousness. Check it out here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRSBaq3vAeY

----

Its all pretty interesting stuff.

This life review idea was shown to me in what I can nay call a vision, as in the religious meaning of the word. I don’t tell many people about this vision because it’s cmplicated. It has to do with the Mormon church teaching me about it’s screwed up version of the atonement, where my sexually abusive father tells God he is sorry, and he is forever off the hook, when really, he has zero comprehension of how what he did screwed up my life for years. But, I do love my dad and I don’t exactly want him punished forever either. I don’t want him punished AT ALL. What I want is for him to understand what it did to my life. I don’t want him punished, but I don’t want him getting off Scott free either.

So, this point in my praying about it is when this vision came. In it I was shown my father having to feel every bit of pain that he caused me, every bit of pain he caused my mother. His inability to empathize or understand that other people have feelings was gone and so was his own emotional flatness. He was feeling things for the first time since this reincarnation started. Then his spirit guide, said, “this is what love is.” And my father was shown and felt the most wonderful unconditional love, directed at him. Then the spirit guide said, “And this is what you did.” And returned to feeling all the pain he had caused. This vision was both beautiful and terrifying.

Alas...sometimes I hate these damn computers. I had this big reponse to your post and Bleep!...lost it when my stupid computer decided to wig out.

ARGGGG

Your post got me thinking and I want to respond. I appreciate what you wrote.

[Rob4Hope]

This life review idea was shown to me in what I can nay call a vision, as in the religious meaning of the word. I don’t tell many people about this vision because it’s cmplicated. It has to do with the Mormon church teaching me about it’s screwed up version of the atonement, where my sexually abusive father tells God he is sorry, and he is forever off the hook, when really, he has zero comprehension of how what he did screwed up my life for years. But, I do love my dad and I don’t exactly want him punished forever either. I don’t want him punished AT ALL. What I want is for him to understand what it did to my life. I don’t want him punished, but I don’t want him getting off Scott free either.

So, this point in my praying about it is when this vision came. In it I was shown my father having to feel every bit of pain that he caused me, every bit of pain he caused my mother. His inability to empathize or understand that other people have feelings was gone and so was his own emotional flatness. He was feeling things for the first time since this reincarnation started. Then his spirit guide, said, “this is what love is.” And my father was shown and felt the most wonderful unconditional love, directed at him. Then the spirit guide said, “And this is what you did.” And returned to feeling all the pain he had caused. This vision was both beautiful and terrifying.

OK Alas,...I've pretty much let this thread die, but it was getting rather onerous and long.

I've been doing some "fringe" reading, and its intriguing that somehow our activities are recorded in the fabric of time. How this happens?....beats me. Science is barly scratching the surface. I just barely watched a you-tube describing the connection between space/time. The faster you move in space, the slower time travels,...which is weird but appears to be scientifically real. If we barely understand this, and we have no idea what "consciousness" is, is it really that far of a stretch to have an open mind about whether actions, emotions, or everything else, may somehow leave a mark in the fabric of time? Perhaps even be something that, if one had any control over time at all, could be reviewed and examined?

The literature is overwhelming in support of us viewing the movie of our life afterward, and it also being used as a teaching tool. I am encouraged that despite the learning (which in your father's case would be excruciating yet necessary), there is love there to support those going through that. It seems to be the best of both worlds: a punishment in living through and being forced to understand the consequences and pain caused by what you did while alive; and a support, even a type of redemption, because of the love offered throughout the experience.

Thoughts?

[Thoughtful]

I had surgery a few weeks ago and am disappointed to report no NDE this go around.

[Rob4Hope]

I have an AFIB problem that can get pretty sever. Don't know why I was the one who got it,..but there it is.

Anyway, I was in the hospital about a year ago with a pretty bad bout. Heart was flipping all over inside, and it scares the SH!T out of you bye the way...

They ran all their tests. "You are not having a heart attack. All the markers are low for any real problems. Your BP is REALLY high cuz you are freaked out,...but we can't find anything wrong. You have AFIB."

Oh really? DUH!

Doctor said: "Well, we can send you home and watch it,...or since we have you all hooked up, we can put you to sleep and hit you with the paddles and see if we can get your heart back in rhythm."

I'm LIKE...HELL NO! Send me home!

Why?....I confess, I don't want to have a NDE...NOT YET! Its cool to read about others, but I have to personally confess, to have a NDE, the 'Death' part of that is something I don't want to be around at all, at least for a while.

[Hagoth]

Sleep paralysis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis
[/quote]
I used to experience sleep paralysis fairly frequently and there were usually perceived entities involved. I can see how these could very easily be interpreted as ghosts, demons, angels, aliens, whatever. The experiences were very strong when I was young and have faded over time. I miss them.

I think there is a very good reason people tend to get visited by mysterious entities while they are in their bed. Even Joseph Smith's Moroni and First Vision visitations have some strong similarities to sleep paralysis. What if Joseph fell asleep in the grove? The sense of a dark presence binding him down and making him unable to speak is a textbook symptom of sleep paralysis, even though that part of the story seems to have developed over time. Maybe that was a separate experience that he added to the First Vision story, or maybe it happened at the Moroni event and he moved it to the other story because he felt like it fit better there.

[alas]

Sleep paralysis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis

I used to experience sleep paralysis fairly frequently and there were usually perceived entities involved. I can see how these could very easily be interpreted as ghosts, demons, angels, aliens, whatever. The experiences were very strong when I was young and have faded over time. I miss them.

I think there is a very good reason people tend to get visited by mysterious entities while they are in their bed. Even Joseph Smith's Moroni and First Vision visitations have some strong similarities to sleep paralysis. What if Joseph fell asleep in the grove? The sense of a dark presence binding him down and making him unable to speak is a textbook symptom of sleep paralysis, even though that part of the story seems to have developed over time. Maybe that was a separate experience that he added to the First Vision story, or maybe it happened at the Moroni event and he moved it to the other story because he felt like it fit better there.
[/quote]

Sleep paralysis can explain some of this type of experience, but not others. For instance, the cases of “disassociation” of the trauma victims I worked with. They didn’t lose consciences, but were out of their body, watching the world from a different perspective, just like some of the NDE. And the clarity of NDE is missing for sleep paralysis. People with SP have vague memories and then fill in details later. Look at alien abductions, which do fit the sleep paralysis idea. They are different from each other, with no themes running through hundreds of them. They feel bazaar rather than comforting and they have a sinister threatening feeling rather than a feeling of love. Also, in sleep paralysis the person often realizes they can’t move. But in NDE the person says they can move freely, reach up and touch things, but it feels like they are not doing so with their body in quite the normal way, for example they can travel great distances just by wanting to. But I have never heard a NDE where the person felt paralyzed or unable to escape an unpleasant experience. But this inability to move or escape is common with alien abduction stories.

I have had sleep paralysis and the feeling is nothing like the OOBEthat I had. There s just no comparison and nothing in common, yet the OOBE has quite a bit in common with the NDE where the person is out of their body but doesn’t have the “full” NDE of meeting people and seeing the life review and traveling to a different place.

But keep looking for something that does explain NDE because I really would like to find something that does explain this type of experience.

[moksha]

I used to experience sleep paralysis fairly frequently and there were usually perceived entities involved.

That is very interesting. I remember having what is called hypnagogic sleep, where I had very vivid technicolor dreams that included hallucinations of my bedroom furniture moving around for about 30 seconds when I woke up in the morning. That was caused by a sleep medication called Halcion. Wonder if the general public could enjoy a safer NDE-type visual sensation with a prescription for Halcion? Those vivid technicolor dreams were marvelous. Just don't have overly threatening bedroom furniture that would scare rather than astound you!

[Thoughtful]

I used to experience sleep paralysis fairly frequently and there were usually perceived entities involved.

That is very interesting. I remember having what is called hypnagogic sleep, where I had very vivid technicolor dreams that included hallucinations of my bedroom furniture moving around for about 30 seconds when I woke up in the morning. That was caused by a sleep medication called Halcion. Wonder if the general public could enjoy a safer NDE-type visual sensation with a prescription for Halcion? Those vivid technicolor dreams were marvelous. Just don't have overly threatening bedroom furniture that would scare rather than astound you!

I remember reading something, probably Ramachandran, about hallucinations like this. Like seeing people as half cartoon, half people. Or other bizarre sensory experiences and how it can be a product of seizures, strokes, pressure on parts of the brain, etc.

[moksha]

I remember reading something, probably Ramachandran, about hallucinations like this. Like seeing people as half cartoon, half people. Or other bizarre sensory experiences and how it can be a product of seizures, strokes, pressure on parts of the brain, etc.

Glad my brief experience was from Halcion rather than a seizure, stroke, or pressure on my brain!

[Rob4Hope]

I used to experience sleep paralysis fairly frequently and there were usually perceived entities involved.

That is very interesting. I remember having what is called hypnagogic sleep, where I had very vivid technicolor dreams that included hallucinations of my bedroom furniture moving around for about 30 seconds when I woke up in the morning. That was caused by a sleep medication called Halcion. Wonder if the general public could enjoy a safer NDE-type visual sensation with a prescription for Halcion? Those vivid technicolor dreams were marvelous. Just don't have overly threatening bedroom furniture that would scare rather than astound you!

I listened to a pod-cast between Gram Hancock and Joe Rogan where they discussed Iowaska. Those guys describe experiences that appear to be as OOBE as they get from drug usage; however, they still lack some of the primary characteristics of full blown OOBEs in NDE literature.

I also had a hypnogogic hallucination once. I was having a horrible bout with insomnia--was getting about 2 hours of very poor sleep a night for over 2 weeks. The doctor I visited in his stupid wisdom prescribed an antidepressant that had the side effect of INSOMNIA! Duh! It just made things worse.

Out of absolute exhaustion, I was laying on my couch and slipped into a waking dream, also seeing strange things moving around in the room where I was. I knew what was happening, and I knew that my body was doing what it needed to somehow recharge if at all possible. I also had some of the most horrific nightmares of my life during that time and...<drum role>...lost ALL fear of nightmares. Imagine!...I KNEW I was asleep BECAUSE of those nightmares which made me grateful for them. Strange way to loose fear of horrible dreams.

Of all the explanations I've heard about the visions JS had, two of them still seem like the most plausible:
1) He just fabricated them totally.
2) He used an ethnogenic compound to induce the visions.

I wonder if JS might have had some type of NDE when he got his leg worked on as a small child, but I've never read anything in the literature about that ever.

PS. I've also wondered if there is a link between sleep paralysis, hypnogogic hallucinations, enthnogenic compounds (which Iowaska would probably qualify as a more powerful one) and NDE and OOBE. I see similarities, but the differences are significant and pervasive. Those who have OOBE have ULTRA INTENSE AWARENESS and ALERTNESS. There is no mis-perception type things--these people report being more alert, more awake, more connected than anything they have ever felt while "alive".

[Random]

On a related note, why are all spiritual encounter stories at night?

I've had many during the day (and many at night), but I don't think they fit within the parameters of this thread. In fact, I've had a lot of experiences, but cannot prove they are more than just coming from my own mind.

Part of the problem of why people do not share first hand accounts is they do not like being scoffed at. And until a person knows that the audience is safe, they keep their mouths shut.

That's exactly why I did not participate in this thread when I first saw it. I know I will not be believed.

[Hagoth]

I have had sleep paralysis and the feeling is nothing like the OOBEthat I had. There s just no comparison and nothing in common, yet the OOBE has quite a bit in common with the NDE where the person is out of their body but doesn’t have the “full” NDE of meeting people and seeing the life review and traveling to a different place.

That's fascinating. The reason I say I miss having sleep paralysis episodes is that they stopped being terrifying when someone taught me how to transform sleep paralysis into an OBE. The results were amazing hyper-realistic experiences, fantastic adventures that seemed to be more real -as if in higher resolution- than waking life. These almost always started with me floating in my bedroom and above my bed and then zooming off to some amazing experience. Also interesting was that the world where these experiences happened seemed to have its own set of consistent rules and limitations. For example, I could not fly through walls or windows but could squeeze through small holes. Clocks, especially digital clocks, were illegible. I could fly effortlessly like Superman but had to avoid powerlines because I would get stuck to them. Light switches did not work. I remained lucid as long as I never touched the ground. If I landed on the ground it became just a dream. But they always started in my bed with me leaving my body and then returning, often by waking up. I do not believe my spirit was actually leaving my body, but who knows.

[Thoughtful]

I have had sleep paralysis and the feeling is nothing like the OOBEthat I had. There s just no comparison and nothing in common, yet the OOBE has quite a bit in common with the NDE where the person is out of their body but doesn’t have the “full” NDE of meeting people and seeing the life review and traveling to a different place.

That's fascinating. The reason I say I miss having sleep paralysis episodes is that they stopped being terrifying when someone taught me how to transform sleep paralysis into an OBE. The results were amazing hyper-realistic experiences, fantastic adventures that seemed to be more real -as if in higher resolution- than waking life. These almost always started with me floating in my bedroom and above my bed and then zooming off to some amazing experience. Also interesting was that the world where these experiences happened seemed to have its own set of consistent rules and limitations. For example, I could not fly through walls or windows but could squeeze through small holes. Clocks, especially digital clocks, were illegible. I could fly effortlessly like Superman but had to avoid powerlines because I would get stuck to them. Light switches did not work. I remained lucid as long as I never touched the ground. If I landed on the ground it became just a dream. But they always started in my bed with me leaving my body and then returning, often by waking up. I do not believe my spirit was actually leaving my body, but who knows.

I had many dreams like this as a kid, but no sleep paralysis. I mentioned it to a relative and he said, "were you dreaming or astral projecting?"

[dogbite]

I listened to a pod-cast between Gram Hancock and Joe Rogan where they discussed Iowaska.

Ayahuasca is the more common spelling in what I've read though your spelling also shows up as valid. I first heard of this in the 80s in Wade Davis' book The Serpent and The Rainbow which is quite different than the movie they made from some of its content. A relative grows in Utah, Sacred Datura but is more toxic while still hallucinatory. The natives used it in the same way.

[moksha]

I could fly effortlessly like Superman but had to avoid powerlines because I would get stuck to them.

At the time I was having such vivid dreams, I liked to find good flight routes from topographic maps in the atlas. High altitude flights were never as fun as flying between 100 to 500 feet off the ground. Exotic locales were great: Moscow to Lake Baikal and Melbourne to Perth were memorable. Eventually, those dreams drifted into a lower level of sleep or else wakefulness.

Now that I am old and use a bi-pap mask at night, I dream of strange farting sounds coming from the mask. I miss good dreams.

[Rob4Hope]

I listened to a pod-cast between Gram Hancock and Joe Rogan where they discussed Iowaska.

Ayahuasca is the more common spelling in what I've read though your spelling also shows up as valid. I first heard of this in the 80s in Wade Davis' book The Serpent and The Rainbow which is quite different than the movie they made from some of its content. A relative grows in Utah, Sacred Datura but is more toxic while still hallucinatory. The natives used it in the same way.

You know,...some of the early Kirtland reports of their prayer meetings, and also some of the REALLY weird reports of how they experienced the spiritual events and had almost hysteria...I lean strongly to the idea that Joe was using some of this stuff during his visions, and also introduced it, sometimes covertly and without consent, to others.