Brushes with "the other side"?

[Thoughtful]

I listened to a pod-cast between Gram Hancock and Joe Rogan where they discussed Iowaska.

Ayahuasca is the more common spelling in what I've read though your spelling also shows up as valid. I first heard of this in the 80s in Wade Davis' book The Serpent and The Rainbow which is quite different than the movie they made from some of its content. A relative grows in Utah, Sacred Datura but is more toxic while still hallucinatory. The natives used it in the same way.

You know,...some of the early Kirtland reports of their prayer meetings, and also some of the REALLY weird reports of how they experienced the spiritual events and had almost hysteria...I lean strongly to the idea that Joe was using some of this stuff during his visions, and also introduced it, sometimes covertly and without consent, to others.

Agreed!

[alas]

I have had sleep paralysis and the feeling is nothing like the OOBEthat I had. There s just no comparison and nothing in common, yet the OOBE has quite a bit in common with the NDE where the person is out of their body but doesn’t have the “full” NDE of meeting people and seeing the life review and traveling to a different place.

That's fascinating. The reason I say I miss having sleep paralysis episodes is that they stopped being terrifying when someone taught me how to transform sleep paralysis into an OBE. The results were amazing hyper-realistic experiences, fantastic adventures that seemed to be more real -as if in higher resolution- than waking life. These almost always started with me floating in my bedroom and above my bed and then zooming off to some amazing experience. Also interesting was that the world where these experiences happened seemed to have its own set of consistent rules and limitations. For example, I could not fly through walls or windows but could squeeze through small holes. Clocks, especially digital clocks, were illegible. I could fly effortlessly like Superman but had to avoid powerlines because I would get stuck to them. Light switches did not work. I remained lucid as long as I never touched the ground. If I landed on the ground it became just a dream. But they always started in my bed with me leaving my body and then returning, often by waking up. I do not believe my spirit was actually leaving my body, but who knows.

This is new to me. But then my experience with people who have had OOBE are usually the kind that are triggered by trauma, rather than people who learn to go into OOBE without being repeatedly exposed to trauma.

See, my experience caused me to rule out sleep paralysis because my exposure to it was that people who had spontaneous OOBE and people who learned to go into them were awake but experiencing trauma, so to me, not a dream but more of a hallucination.

But your experience doesn’t prove that OOBE are related to sleep paralysis, just that you learned to get out of the bad feelings of sleep paralysis by doing whatever an OOBE really is. I am not saying there is no connection, because terror can trigger OOBE and sleep paralysis can be terrifying, so that could be the connection. I mean, I think that alien abductions are really sleep paralysis, and they are terrifying. So, really terror could be the connection, and psychologists have proven that terror causes memories to be recorded in the brain differently and in more detail and more vividly than normal memories, so that may explain your connection. You may have learned how to change the foggy dream of sleep paralysis into the “different” kind of dream of OOBE and OOBE May just be a terror triggered kind of dream. We do have control over our body putting out hormones, but most people just don’t learn to consciously say, “I am now going to produce terror hormones.” But people with anxiety disorder have to learn how to turn off those particular over active hormones, and that is something psychologists teach them to do. So, why can’t the reverse be taught and we teach ourselves how to trigger an OOBE.

So, what is the difference between dreams and hallucinations, other than wakefulness? People who are REM deprived (dream deprived) start having hallucinations, so there is a connection.

Still doesn’t explain why some OOBE and NDE have confirmation from witnesses that the person saw something that they could not physically see. That is the explanation I am waiting for.

[Rob4Hope]

I mean, I think that alien abductions are really sleep paralysis, and they are terrifying.

I'm gunna laugh my ass off if there ends up being something to the alien abductions (and I mean that in a GOOD way).

Also, there is a fair amount of literature on the topic of astral projection that is quite interesting. Statistically, I've read there is something to remote viewing as well.

All of these things would be called "fringe"...but I'm not gunna discount stuff just becuase of that. What I know for sure is that the NDE literature is OVERWHELMING. That one can NOT be discounted at all. It all points to consciusness existing separate and even potentially outside the body.

If consciousness can exist outside the body, then is astral projection all that unbelievable? Ayewaska seems to produce some of those types of experiences as does DHT. And if quantum entanglement is real and things are linked and especially from Dean Raden's research on a close double-slit experiment being influence by people in different continents, is remote viewing or things similar completely off the table?

Why do we have to have solid proof before we will even consider things as possible? In my mind, there are 3 options: true, false, and I DON"T KNOW.

About some of those fringe things?....truth is, I DON"T KNOW. Does that mean I believe them? No. Does it mean I disbelieve them? NO. It means I DON"T KNOW.

Ha. I'm oK in that space. In my mind, its the beginning of learning...

[alas]

I mean, I think that alien abductions are really sleep paralysis, and they are terrifying.

I'm gunna laugh my ass off if there ends up being something to the alien abductions (and I mean that in a GOOD way).

Also, there is a fair amount of literature on the topic of astral projection that is quite interesting. Statistically, I've read there is something to remote viewing as well.

All of these things would be called "fringe"...but I'm not gunna discount stuff just becuase of that. What I know for sure is that the NDE literature is OVERWHELMING. That one can NOT be discounted at all. It all points to consciusness existing separate and even potentially outside the body.

If consciousness can exist outside the body, then is astral projection all that unbelievable? Ayewaska seems to produce some of those types of experiences as does DHT. And if quantum entanglement is real and things are linked and especially from Dean Raden's research on a close double-slit experiment being influence by people in different continents, is remote viewing or things similar completely off the table?

Why do we have to have solid proof before we will even consider things as possible? In my mind, there are 3 options: true, false, and I DON"T KNOW.

About some of those fringe things?....truth is, I DON"T KNOW. Does that mean I believe them? No. Does it mean I disbelieve them? NO. It means I DON"T KNOW.

Ha. I'm oK in that space. In my mind, its the beginning of learning...

If alien abductions turn out to be real, I think I will join you in laughing MAO. It would be hilarious if the alien believers turn out to be correct. Scary, but hilarious. But with AA, I have never heard of outside corroborating evidence. Have you? cause it would be fun to hear some.

But from the skeptic side of things, of all the fringe stuff, AA seem to me to have the best scientific explanation that would rule against there being real aliens. And I tend to believe the scientists who say space travel to other planets is just too unlikely considering the constraints of time and space. But with all the fringe stuff, I am more in the category of “I don’t know” than I am in the category of “I know”. I said “I *think* AA are really SP” not that I am sure they are. Just that I lean toward that as an explanation. On OOBE and NDE, I lean toward, “we don’t have an explanation that really fits the evidence” so, therefore, I lean toward, “I don’t think they are just SP or hallucinations.” They may turn out to be SP or hallucinations. And all the corroborating evidence just coincident, but.... that is a lot of corroborating evidence that has to be explained as coincident. And as Gibbs of NCIS fame says, I don’t believe in coincidences. Even ESP, I tend to think there is something going on because connections between, say identical twins, are just outright creepy when one feels the pain the other is in. So, I tend to doubt alien abductions more than I doubt NDEs. Does that make sense?

[Hagoth]

Still doesn’t explain why some OOBE and NDE have confirmation from witnesses that the person saw something that they could not physically see. That is the explanation I am waiting for.

I haven't followed the topic enough to know of anything but reminiscences and anecdotal examples of this - and I don't want to open up that whole discussion here - but I'm sure you know of some compelling examples. At one time I considered having my wife hide a message that could only be seen by someone hovering , like on top of the bedroom fan, mostly to see if I would remember to try to read it when I was in that state.

[Rob4Hope]

Still doesn’t explain why some OOBE and NDE have confirmation from witnesses that the person saw something that they could not physically see. That is the explanation I am waiting for.

I haven't followed the topic enough to know of anything but reminiscences and anecdotal examples of this - and I don't want to open up that whole discussion here - but I'm sure you know of some compelling examples. At one time I considered having my wife hide a message that could only be seen by someone hovering , like on top of the bedroom fan, mostly to see if I would remember to try to read it when I was in that state.

There is a whole book on the subject of veridical examples:

The Self Does Not Die Verified Paranormal Phenomena from Near-Death Experiences Titus Rivas, MA, MSc, Anny Dirven, and Rudolf H. Smit Foreword to the Dutch edition by Stan Michielsens Foreword to the English edition by Robert G. Mays, BSc, and Suzanne B. Mays, AA English edition edited by Janice Miner Holden, EdD Translation by Wanda J. Boeke Project management and editorial oversight by Robert G. Mays, BSc IANDS Publications

Rivas, Titus. The Self Does Not Die: Verified Paranormal Phenomena from Near-Death Experiences. International Association for Near-Death Studies. Kindle Edition.

There is a fair amount of evidence that people who have OOBE through NDE are not hallucinating. If they were, then there is a whole new deal with ESP that needs some scientific method because these people are picking up on things they can't...because their body is in a dead state and they are NOT in the room or place where the things are happening.

Its a pretty good read. Not a lot of religious overtones. I like that.

[Rob4Hope]

If alien abductions turn out to be real, I think I will join you in laughing MAO. It would be hilarious if the alien believers turn out to be correct. Scary, but hilarious. But with AA, I have never heard of outside corroborating evidence. Have you? cause it would be fun to hear some.

But from the skeptic side of things, of all the fringe stuff, AA seem to me to have the best scientific explanation that would rule against there being real aliens. And I tend to believe the scientists who say space travel to other planets is just too unlikely considering the constraints of time and space. But with all the fringe stuff, I am more in the category of “I don’t know” than I am in the category of “I know”. I said “I *think* AA are really SP” not that I am sure they are. Just that I lean toward that as an explanation. On OOBE and NDE, I lean toward, “we don’t have an explanation that really fits the evidence” so, therefore, I lean toward, “I don’t think they are just SP or hallucinations.” They may turn out to be SP or hallucinations. And all the corroborating evidence just coincident, but.... that is a lot of corroborating evidence that has to be explained as coincident. And as Gibbs of NCIS fame says, I don’t believe in coincidences. Even ESP, I tend to think there is something going on because connections between, say identical twins, are just outright creepy when one feels the pain the other is in. So, I tend to doubt alien abductions more than I doubt NDEs. Does that make sense?

Its unfortunate how much skepticism is out there where people "who know more" ridicule things they don't understand. I'm glad you spend time in the "I don't know" state Alas. It means you have a more open mind.

Most people don't have that. Not even a little.

Here is an example: Ignaz Semmelweis, who died in 1865, urged hand washing BEFORE dealing with patients in the hospital. In his own hospital, he cut death rates from infect significantly. After his death, his hospital went back to running 'properly' again, and "Mortality rates increased by a factor of six, but nobody cared."

https://www.famousscientists.org/7-scie ... lifetimes/

I have found this guy fascinating,...and it openes up the possiblity that maybe,...just maybe,...there is something more going on...
https://books.google.com/books/about/Fi ... &q&f=false

Hancock gets into archeology and explains the "Younger Dryas" that explains several things. He contends that there were advanced civilizations that existed before the recorded Babylonians came onboard. Archeologists are freaking over Globeki Teppi because its kindof hard to believe, IMHO, that some stone wielding ape people built that.

[alas]

If alien abductions turn out to be real, I think I will join you in laughing MAO. It would be hilarious if the alien believers turn out to be correct. Scary, but hilarious. But with AA, I have never heard of outside corroborating evidence. Have you? cause it would be fun to hear some.

But from the skeptic side of things, of all the fringe stuff, AA seem to me to have the best scientific explanation that would rule against there being real aliens. And I tend to believe the scientists who say space travel to other planets is just too unlikely considering the constraints of time and space. But with all the fringe stuff, I am more in the category of “I don’t know” than I am in the category of “I know”. I said “I *think* AA are really SP” not that I am sure they are. Just that I lean toward that as an explanation. On OOBE and NDE, I lean toward, “we don’t have an explanation that really fits the evidence” so, therefore, I lean toward, “I don’t think they are just SP or hallucinations.” They may turn out to be SP or hallucinations. And all the corroborating evidence just coincident, but.... that is a lot of corroborating evidence that has to be explained as coincident. And as Gibbs of NCIS fame says, I don’t believe in coincidences. Even ESP, I tend to think there is something going on because connections between, say identical twins, are just outright creepy when one feels the pain the other is in. So, I tend to doubt alien abductions more than I doubt NDEs. Does that make sense?

Its unfortunate how much skepticism is out there where people "who know more" ridicule things they don't understand. I'm glad you spend time in the "I don't know" state Alas. It means you have a more open mind.

Most people don't have that. Not even a little.

Here is an example: Ignaz Semmelweis, who died in 1865, urged hand washing BEFORE dealing with patients in the hospital. In his own hospital, he cut death rates from infect significantly. After his death, his hospital went back to running 'properly' again, and "Mortality rates increased by a factor of six, but nobody cared."

https://www.famousscientists.org/7-scie ... lifetimes/

I have found this guy fascinating,...and it openes up the possiblity that maybe,...just maybe,...there is something more going on...
https://books.google.com/books/about/Fi ... &q&f=false

Hancock gets into archeology and explains the "Younger Dryas" that explains several things. He contends that there were advanced civilizations that existed before the recorded Babylonians came onboard. Archeologists are freaking over Globeki Teppi because its kindof hard to believe, IMHO, that some stone wielding ape people built that.

One thing I do believe in, and that is human beings. We are smarter and more adaptable than we give ourselves credit for. It is the idea that the people who built Globeki Teppi were as you say stone wielding ape people. No, they were very intelligent human beings perfectly capable of the technology to build such a place. In fact, I suspect that before life got cushy with all our modern science and culture that they were even more intelligent than we are today. We are evolving backwards because we have learned to keep stupid people from killing themselves or getting eaten by a saber tooth tiger because they lacked intelligence. When we allow the stupid among us to survive by artificial means and help from those who are much smarter, we evolve into a less intelligent species. We have reduced the survival pressure that caused us to be supper intelligent, and I don’t know how many thousands of years we can keep doing that are still have the native intelligence to figure such engineering problems out.

Now we have set instructions on how to move huge rocks we the heavy equipment we possess. That intelligence to follow instructions given by culture and written in books is a different kind of intelligence than the kind it takes to figure out from scratch how to move big boulders with just people, ropes, animals, and other primitive tools. It is like the computer “experts” who setup computer security, who follow known procedures and get rid of all known ways to hack into the system. They have the “book” kind of intelligence. Then they get a bunch of kids who know computers, but don’t yet know what they cannot do, and turn them lose and it takes them 15 minutes to hack into the voting machines that it took the engineers years to develop. That is one kind of creative intelligence going up against the book kind of intelligence.

It is the same with these “impossible” things to build. With several of them, like Roman arches, like the ceiling of the Pantheon, they put creative people on the task, and they quickly come up with away it can be done without any modern technology.

Did ancient people have good enough boats to get people to Australia 65 thousand years ago. Well obviously they did because people got there.

So, rather than explaining such ancient things as “they had to have help from intelligent aliens” who had the technology to move huge boulders, I can just believe that the ancient people themselves were smart enough to figure it out. Ancient people knew a lot that we do not give them credit for knowing.

My answer to “ancient aliens”. But obviously, I have watched some of the ancient aliens programs and then looked for alternate theories. So, I am not saying the ancient aliens theories are wrong, just that there is not so much evidence as they think there is that they are right.

I am first a skeptic, then I examine the evidence and sometimes I lean one direction toward belief and sometimes I lean the opposite. But until all the evidence is in, I really don’t know. But I do think the human mind is capable of a lot of things that we don’t give it credit for.

[Rob4Hope]

I love things like Globeki Tepi. It does several things:

1. Blows holes in Bruce R. McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith's idea that no death existed on this planet before 6000+ years ago.
2. Blows holes in the general archeological thought that organized civiliations didn't exist before the Babylonians.
3. Challenges the uniformtarianism idea that life happened in slow growth, which is challenged by the sudden emergence of civilizations that had written languages, etc.

The big point for me, at least in the beginning about this topic, was how LDS theology couldn't harmonize with it. You can't take some of these modern discoveries like Globeki Tepi and wrap LDS thology around it. But the physical evidence is right there...you can SEE Globeki Tepi.

I would be interested in any ideas how the Trilithon was placed at Baalbek. Even with technology today, that would be almost impossible to do that.

I agree that we have lost imformation.

-----

You know, what is most frightening is this: suppose we got hit with a cosmic blast, or a comit or something that knocked out the power for maybe a year. You know who would survive?...indiginous folks like those in the Amazon. You know who would possibly die off because they can't fend for themselves when it really comes down to it?...probably those who live on their cell phones and have no idea how to plant or cultivate without watching youtube videos on it.

We have regressed in survial skills.

[Random]

I have Fingerprints of the Gods, and love it! It was so fascinating to read the first time through.

Like Alas, I think our ancestors were perfectly capable of building incredible things without alien help.

I have a book called Ancient Inventions. Love it. (And those things mentioned in the book are only the things we have found out about.)

I have found this guy fascinating,...and it openes up the possiblity that maybe,...just maybe,...there is something more going on...
https://books.google.com/books/about/Fi ... &q&f=false