Brushes with "the other side"?

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alas
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by alas » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:15 pm

With reincarnation, many believers think that being female is a higher level than being male, because in most human cultures the men have more power and an easier life, therefore the more experienced spirits are reborn as women. Because being a woman is harder and requires more willingness to give to other, specifically children.

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by MoPag » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:46 pm

alas wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:28 am
slavereeno wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:27 am
Other phenomenon that are real but currently unexplained... deja-vu, the placebo effect. The latter more so than the former.
You know, I have wondered if scientists could understand the placebo effect, then they would be able to start to at least accept that some of this other stuff might be real, and just not understood, or even that there is something very powerful about the human brain, that we do not understand. They don't even accept that some things like ESP is real, because it is not consistent enough for them to test and prove. But some ESP stuff is too weird to be just coincident, and like Leroy Jetho Gibbs says, there is no such thing as coincident.
<snip>
I wonder what it will take for this to happen. Think about how the microscope changed everything. Suddenly we could see things that were affecting our everyday lives. But before then it was all just a mystery. We need a "microscope" type invention to let us see what is causing these phenomenon, then we might be able to get somewhere.
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:17 pm

I just read the posts from my last, and I like the openness being shown here. Thank you.

Some of these NDEs talk about spirits being in the room and somehow affecting the energy inside the bodies of those who are dealing with either injury or wounds. These spirts are not just in the room, they are physically over the person who is in distress and are reaching into the body somehow and doing something that affects the energy and facilitates healing or something.

Now don't kill the messenger here if you disagree with what I'm saying--I'm only repeating what I've read; I make no claim to validity.

But, it does open up the question of healing with magnets or energy crystals, etc. And this placebo effect is certainly interesting as well.

I don't know what to make of it all, other than some folks swear by it, and others swear about it, calling it bullshiz. It certainly is interesting when it gets woven into things....and them early saints, including JS, swore by herbs, prayers, and magic rocks!

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:20 pm

MoPag wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:00 pm
Rob4Hope wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:36 pm
EternityIsNow wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:35 pm

Well, from an NDE/OOBE point of view, reincarnations certainly makes sense. If you consider that our universe is billions of years old, and there are endless worlds out there with intelligent life, and we are exploring those worlds as tiny drops of the essence of the consciousness of the whole, I don't see why we would limit ourselves to just one experience of a mortal life. The sense I have from my own NDE/OOBE experiences and studying the topic is that we are here to experience being human. I can imagine we want many different variations on that experience, so certainly makes sense we would "reincarnate" many times. On many worlds to experience many different life forms.

But I do think the term reincarnation is a bit misleading. Because per the NDEs we are not really incarnating in a creationist sense. Our consciousness is not directing the body's incarnation, we don't have the kind of spirit that would act as a template to create a body, or incarnate itself as human. As I understand this, our consciousness can manifest any type of spirit it wants to. Any gender, any species. So when our consciousness wants to have a spirit, a spirit is manifested to adapt to the evolved body it plans to inhabit. This is because a physical body already has its own form that evolved according to the laws of physics. So these bodies we are in now have evolved on their own over millions of years. They would be born, live, and die with or without our consciousness riding along for the experience. Our consciousness can choose to inhabit any body it wants to, as long as that body is not already occupied by somebody else's consciousness. This is less like the religious concept of incarnation and more like riding a horse. We are a rider, or a passenger, going along for a mortal life ride.

One other point. The consciousness we have here is not all that we are. Each of us has what some people call a higher consciousness. Only part of our conscious being is currently living this life. Part of us remains in a disembodied state. So each incarnation might be a slightly different mix of the elements in our whole personality. Therefore, the sense of self we have now in this life is unique in all the universe and across all time. Although we will remember the experience forever, who we are now will never be precisely replicated in any other life. I think this might be part of why we want to experience these incarnations. Because they are unique things that have a limited lifespan. And apparently the universe finds the experience of something unique to be fascinating.

I know this might be hard to believe if you have not had one of these disembodied experiences and studied this literature fairly extensively. But the reality of the reported NDE and out of body metaphysics is that reincarnation is part of a cycle of transformations we go through all the time. This earth experience we are having now is a transformative experience. But we also have transformative experiences in other dimensions of the universe. So when we incarnate again, we learn things, as we explore the many manifested experiences available in the universe. And we prepare carefully for each new incarnative experience. We might even invest more of our higher consciousness into a given life, or invest less of it. This would been based on the nature of the mortal experience we would like to have.

So in simple terms, reincarnation, I do believe it is real, so that is my opinion (you asked :) ). But the way the religious people think of reincarnation is overly simplistic. Sort of like they are setting up a straw man. The phenomenon of reincarnation is far more complex than just returning to another human life. The NDE version is that reincarnation is part of an ecosystem of the universe experiencing all the dimensions of itself.
I read what you posted carefully and believe I understand it.

Any opinion on where we are, or what we are between states of incarnation?
Wiccans call the place between incarnations Summerland. It's kind of like the LDS version of the spirit world. But you get to rest and regroup. Kind of assimilate all the stuff you learned in your most recent life with all the stuff you learned from your past lives. Then if you gain enough energy you progress to a higher being.

I like the idea of reincarnation. I like how you described it EIN.
What you just said about wiccins is more inline with the actual NDE being reported than anything the LDS folks say, even those LDS who have NDEs seem to diverge.

Interesting connection....

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:28 pm

I don't know if I mentioned this above, but I read a book by a lady who attempted suicide and had an NDE. She had her reasons (only some of which were discussed in the book), and she recollected her experience in a rather stark way. Most of the usual stuff was in place: super awake, super lucid (in this spirit place), aware of her body laying on the couch and time stopping, etc.

She said she went to a place that was devoid of the kindof light that held hope. There were others in that place, but they were just standing there, not thinking, not interacting, not doing anything--just in a place of inactivity BY CHOICE (she made that clear). They could have done something, but they chose not to--they had given up all hope, and had used their ability to choose and act to choose do do nothing but just wait for something that wasn't going to happen, because they expected nothing.

All of that is an aside, and I probably did a crappy job reiterating it.

What was interesting, however, was this woman saw "matter" there, a kindof energy material that reacted to thought. It could be made into things, but the essence of this particular matter was evil or negative. It existed there, and was subject to those who were there, who didn't choose to do anything with it, but could have.

I read this book years ago, and why it peaked my interest was the reactional nature of the mater to thought reminded me of the double-slit stuff I mentioned above. Something could be transformed from energy to matter and back, simply by observation and thought (in this ladies' account).

This lady knows nothing about double-slits--believe me, I met her. She is intelligent, but NOT about science. But it was just interesting.

There are a few "suicide" accounts out there, and they contrast in VERY interesting ways with other accounts. Just interesting stuff...

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by slavereeno » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:58 pm

alas wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:12 pm
I think I an one of the people it doesn't work on. I think my childhood Doctor also knew that it would not work. When I was five my big brothers both had warts on their hands and my mom takes us into the doctor. I was with them because no baby sitter. So, the doctor tells my mom that first of all, he wants to buy the warts off my brothers, and if that does not work, to bring them back and no charge, he will use the second choice of treatment. So, he puts on his best Voodoo act and tells my older brothers that he is going to buy the warts from them. He gives them each a quarter, and says the warts now belong to him, and this magical bandaid will help transfer the wart to him. So, they are to go home, and keep a bandaid over the wart, and the doctor will receive the warts by magic within one week. And the wart will be gone off their hands for good, because the doctor owns them. So, my brothers keep a bandaid over their warts, which disappear within that week, leaving no scar and no trace.

So, after watching this method of getting rid of warts work on my brothers, I am a believer, right? So six months later, I have a wart on one finger. Mom takes me into the same doctor, he looks at it, and says we are going to burn it off. No even attempt to use Voodoo, just we are going to burn it off. And oh, by the way, I still have a bad scar from that wart, but the Voodoo method didn't leave a scar. My doctor did make a joke about the burning smell. He said, this is what a cannable smells when his dinner is burning. Something about cynical little alas, he just didn't think the Voodoo trick would work. But my gullible older brothers, yup, good candidates for witchcraft. Yup, those older brothers of mine were believing in Santa long after I caught on, gullible twits.
:lol: I really hope I am laughing with you... I really liked the way you told this story.

But yeah, why does it work for some and not for others? The other weird thing is, most of the stuff I was reading said that it still worked even after you told the person it was a placebo, go figure. One case was using hookworms to cure Asthma. They gave half the people real hookworms and the other half they just told them they were getting hookworms. The cure rate was the same in both groups but some of them did get better, and after they were told that hookworms don't do squat for asthma the ones that had the worms didn't want them removed because they cured their asthma.

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by alas » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:16 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:28 pm
I don't know if I mentioned this above, but I read a book by a lady who attempted suicide and had an NDE. She had her reasons (only some of which were discussed in the book), and she recollected her experience in a rather stark way. Most of the usual stuff was in place: super awake, super lucid (in this spirit place), aware of her body laying on the couch and time stopping, etc.

She said she went to a place that was devoid of the kindof light that held hope. There were others in that place, but they were just standing there, not thinking, not interacting, not doing anything--just in a place of inactivity BY CHOICE (she made that clear). They could have done something, but they chose not to--they had given up all hope, and had used their ability to choose and act to choose do do nothing but just wait for something that wasn't going to happen, because they expected nothing.

All of that is an aside, and I probably did a crappy job reiterating it.

What was interesting, however, was this woman saw "matter" there, a kindof energy material that reacted to thought. It could be made into things, but the essence of this particular matter was evil or negative. It existed there, and was subject to those who were there, who didn't choose to do anything with it, but could have.

I read this book years ago, and why it peaked my interest was the reactional nature of the mater to thought reminded me of the double-slit stuff I mentioned above. Something could be transformed from energy to matter and back, simply by observation and thought (in this ladies' account).

This lady knows nothing about double-slits--believe me, I met her. She is intelligent, but NOT about science. But it was just interesting.

There are a few "suicide" accounts out there, and they contrast in VERY interesting ways with other accounts. Just interesting stuff...
One paranormal psych trick that some people claim is the ability to move objects with their thoughts. So, this ties the paranormal into the NDE in another way. Like what ever part of us experiences this out of body experience can also manipulate matter.

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Thoughtful » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:09 pm

The placebo effect is real, but very small statistical power. So I'm not sure its a great example of a paranormal phenomenon. The reason a placebo is useful in a trial is the fact that it's not actually effective.

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by EternityIsNow » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:25 am

Rob4Hope wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:36 pm
Any opinion on where we are, or what we are between states of incarnation?
The most literal answer is that relative to our origin, we aren't ever anywhere, in fact everything in the entire universe is an illusion. Like a computer simulation. When we leave this life, we simply travel from one level in the simulation to another. So we don't really go anywhere when we die, we just shift the focus of our consciousness to another level. But shifting the focus of our consciousness feels like travel, the tunnel that many people go through is one way of shifting our focus, although not everyone has the tunnel-like experience (I did, mine sounded like a freight train was flying past me, complete with vibrations, but dark). So we only seem to go somewhere after this life, that is the literal answer. But we do seem to go places.

Where we seem to go follows patterns, but there is not a uniform answer, because almost anything that can be imagined can be found in the layers of the universe that we travel in and between our incarnations. There are endless 'spiritual' worlds, some are like fantasy worlds, but many mimic worlds in this mortal layer of the universe. We will go to the place that is most synchronous with ourselves. So most of us will 'go' to a place that is familiar, or that we are expecting to see, for awhile. If you are part of a primitive tribe you will first see whatever your mythology prepared you for. If you don't believe in an afterlife, or if you don't accept the transition, you may experience a black nothingness, as long as you want, until you realize that you are 'experiencing' this nothingness, then you will move forward. I have had this experience, it is really interesting, I felt like I was in a huge empty expanse, and it was familiar. I remembered experiencing it before, perhaps many lives ago. If you have been a horrible person and expect some retribution, you will experience what you are expecting, for awhile, but hellish afterlife experiences are temporary, they are just another form of transition. If you expect to see God, you will see a being of light, sometimes looking like your religion taught you. So the first step of transition is flexible, helping us adjust to the change. We seem to be guided through this, we have long-term 'friends' on the other side that may or may not be people we knew on Earth. Once we have transitioned, we will interact with other beings, be re-united with our higher selves and have our memories return, and eventually visit other layers of the universe. So there is no one place we will go, we can go anywhere we want to, that we are capable of handling. Most of us are on a long-term tour of mortal experiences, so we will choose a next incarnation and prepare for that, sometimes going together with long-term friends, sometimes on our own. But some of us will choose to go to a non-physical realm for our next experience, or even stop incarnating all together, when we have had enough of the mortal experiences for awhile. We may also choose to rejoin the source entity, reuniting our own consciousness with that of the whole.

One interesting part of the experience was that when we are between mortal lives, we are the same exact conscious being between incarnations that we are here. This was my biggest surprise, that I was still me, completely mentally intact and with zero degradation of my sense of self, and no gap in time. Like my best mental day, but with no body as such. I felt whole and completely myself. And it was liberating to be outside the constraint of the physical body. I can understand why some individuals do not want to return to their bodies. But we are here because we want to be.

My NDE experience took years to process, I had to study a lot to understand what had happened. The irony is that all the study was to help me understand the afterlife and how the universe works, but what I learned convinced me that we don't really need to learn all that in this life. We already know all about the afterlife and how the universe works, and spending too much of our mortal time seeking after something we already know, and will return to again soon enough, is actually wasting precious mortal time. The clock is running for all of us, we are here to live the human lives we have, and to appreciate (and hopefully sometimes enjoy) that experience. I now realize I don't need to know more about the afterlife or higher spirituality, because that is not why we come and incarnate as humans. We are here to experience the strange life of being an advanced primate on a remote planet on the edge of an ordinary galaxy, a unique experience. Another way of saying, you only live once (as the person we are in this life), so make the most of it...

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by EternityIsNow » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:21 am

Duplicate post mods pls del
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by EternityIsNow » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:22 am

Duplicate post mods pls del
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by EternityIsNow » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:24 am

alas wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:15 pm
With reincarnation, many believers think that being female is a higher level than being male, because in most human cultures the men have more power and an easier life, therefore the more experienced spirits are reborn as women. Because being a woman is harder and requires more willingness to give to other, specifically children.
There are cultures where women have more power or an easier life, and the cultural pendulum swings back and forth. Isn't this premortal argument similar to BY's and McConkie's reasoning about Africans being inferior due to premortal valiance problems?

My understanding of reincarnation is that we have each had countless mortality experiences, as males, as females, as other genders, or with no gender, rich and poor, healthy and sick, long and short lives, good and evil lives, on various worlds. While we may 'specialize' in being male or female for a string of incarnations, most of us have experienced many lives in each gender (think hundreds or thousands of lives). So while we may vary in the types of lives we have experienced, we choose a life based on wanting to experience that life, not based on religious worthiness. There are not higher or lower level spirits. But we do seem to have the ability to adjust the abilities we will put into each life to match that mortal experience, so it might seem there are higher and lower levels. But that is just a reflection of the mortal host's level of capability.

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:48 am

EIN...

You use the phrase "Choose a life".

Can you talk more about this?,...and what is your opinion on two people choosing mutually exclusive options, like both wanting the same life where it can't be shared?

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by moksha » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:38 am

alas wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:15 pm
Many believers think that being female is a higher level than being male, because in most human cultures the men have more power and an easier life, therefore the more experienced spirits are reborn as women.
After the guys praise their significant other for being on a higher level they might add, "Bring me a sandwich, Honey and you can have the rest of that pie in the sky".
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by MoPag » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:15 pm

moksha wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:38 am
alas wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:15 pm
Many believers think that being female is a higher level than being male, because in most human cultures the men have more power and an easier life, therefore the more experienced spirits are reborn as women.
After the guys praise their significant other for being on a higher level they might add, "Bring me a sandwich, Honey and you can have the rest of that pie in the sky".
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by EternityIsNow » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:50 am

Rob4Hope wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:48 am
EIN...

You use the phrase "Choose a life".

Can you talk more about this?,...and what is your opinion on two people choosing mutually exclusive options, like both wanting the same life where it can't be shared?
Choosing a life is something I actually remember doing. This memory became clear after my NDE. It was a fascinating experience. I remember sitting in a kind of auditorium. Somewhat like a Ted talk room. There was a giant screen in the front where many 3D type scenarios from the timeline of a single life were playing out at the same time. The scenarios seemed to have a kind of depth to them, as if I could manipulate them mentally and adjust a timeline of each scenario. I seemed to be watching them all simultaneously. There was a complicated pathway woven through all the experiences. This was a life I was seriously considering, but I was concerned about the challenges and the complications. There was a small group of people or beings with me. Sitting around me. One of those beings was answering my questions about the life and telling me telepathically that even though it would be complicated, there was a good pathway through the life. There were a few other people also observing this life. I suspect they were other prospective humans considering this life. This was a busy room, there was a lot going on, people were coming and going rapidly. The review of this perspective life was not comprehensive. I was only being shown a few experiences that would characterize the life. Much of it was to remain a mystery to me. Perhaps not all had been determined, but these main points were the most likely events.

I have the feeling that I remember this experience because this is the life I have ended up living. I believe I had seen many other life options. This memory was more detailed than other accounts I have read. I have read statements and other near death experiences where people are told or shown that they chose their life, but I've never heard this precise description. Apparently, we do choose our life. But not in the sense that a human would, as humans we would choose a life according to whether it will be pleasant or not. Whether they would enjoy that life. Perhaps we are more sociopathic when we are in our higher self state, but I got the impression that pleasure was not really the goal. We were trying to decide if we wanted to experience a given life complete with the good and bad that would be in that life. I was interested in something about this life that I cannot recall anymore.

Other near death accounts mentioned that we choose our parents as part of choosing our life. And we may be flexible as to which child we will be for those parents. The key is apparently that we want a specific family, or maybe specific genetics, to have the life experience we desire.

I do not recall the method that was used to decide who gets to experience a life. I do remember that I was shown many potential lives, and that there were other people interested in each one. I believe that there were higher beings attending this session And the decision of who got the life was probably some sort of mutual agreement based on considering all the factors. I do believe, from my experience and what I have read, that lives do get "claimed" so when we arrive, many of the available lives Will have already been spoken for. We choose from the group that's available. And the challenges in each life will be completely and totally different. Some lives are obviously more rare, for example to be a highly successful individual that will have a great experience, that is probably rare and we may need to wait a long time to experience a life like that.

Also, I got the idea that we specialize in different types of lives, possibly going through a sequence of similar lives so that we can understand all aspects of whatever part of being human we are studying.

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:42 am

EternityIsNow wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:50 am
Rob4Hope wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:48 am
EIN...

You use the phrase "Choose a life".

Can you talk more about this?,...and what is your opinion on two people choosing mutually exclusive options, like both wanting the same life where it can't be shared?
Choosing a life is something I actually remember doing. This memory became clear after my NDE. It was a fascinating experience. I remember sitting in a kind of auditorium. Somewhat like a Ted talk room. There was a giant screen in the front where many 3D type scenarios from the timeline of a single life were playing out at the same time. The scenarios seemed to have a kind of depth to them, as if I could manipulate them mentally and adjust a timeline of each scenario. I seemed to be watching them all simultaneously. There was a complicated pathway woven through all the experiences. This was a life I was seriously considering, but I was concerned about the challenges and the complications. There was a small group of people or beings with me. Sitting around me. One of those beings was answering my questions about the life and telling me telepathically that even though it would be complicated, there was a good pathway through the life. There were a few other people also observing this life. I suspect they were other prospective humans considering this life. This was a busy room, there was a lot going on, people were coming and going rapidly. The review of this perspective life was not comprehensive. I was only being shown a few experiences that would characterize the life. Much of it was to remain a mystery to me. Perhaps not all had been determined, but these main points were the most likely events.

I have the feeling that I remember this experience because this is the life I have ended up living. I believe I had seen many other life options. This memory was more detailed than other accounts I have read. I have read statements and other near death experiences where people are told or shown that they chose their life, but I've never heard this precise description. Apparently, we do choose our life. But not in the sense that a human would, as humans we would choose a life according to whether it will be pleasant or not. Whether they would enjoy that life. Perhaps we are more sociopathic when we are in our higher self state, but I got the impression that pleasure was not really the goal. We were trying to decide if we wanted to experience a given life complete with the good and bad that would be in that life. I was interested in something about this life that I cannot recall anymore.

Other near death accounts mentioned that we choose our parents as part of choosing our life. And we may be flexible as to which child we will be for those parents. The key is apparently that we want a specific family, or maybe specific genetics, to have the life experience we desire.

I do not recall the method that was used to decide who gets to experience a life. I do remember that I was shown many potential lives, and that there were other people interested in each one. I believe that there were higher beings attending this session And the decision of who got the life was probably some sort of mutual agreement based on considering all the factors. I do believe, from my experience and what I have read, that lives do get "claimed" so when we arrive, many of the available lives Will have already been spoken for. We choose from the group that's available. And the challenges in each life will be completely and totally different. Some lives are obviously more rare, for example to be a highly successful individual that will have a great experience, that is probably rare and we may need to wait a long time to experience a life like that.

Also, I got the idea that we specialize in different types of lives, possibly going through a sequence of similar lives so that we can understand all aspects of whatever part of being human we are studying.
EIN. FASCINATING STUFF!.....

Can you share some information about the concept of "time" in that place?

PS. EIN...this is an addendum post. I'm gunna go back and catch-up on the other posts you have placed in this thread so I can make sure I have the context and such. So, if this is a double post--something you have already answered--I apologize. This is a longer thread and I've certainly added to that volume. (Sorry if that bugs anyone).

EIN...can you tell some of the specifics of your NDE please. Where were you at the time, what was happening in your body that triggered it, when did this happen, what was the "transition" experience for you....etc? Can you fill in the details--and if you already did that in the posts above, just say so and I will do my review. Again, I'm sorry if this is in the thread earlier. I try to keep up, but I read so much, I sometimes don't get to all of it in sequence.
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:47 am

This book is proving a good find. It is not embellishing stuff IMHO--just laying it out there. This quote I'm posting is a typical one. The book is even presenting some of the criticisms associated with accounts that are controversial. The one where the lady allegedly saw a shoe outside a ledge on an upper floor of the hospital is discussed, including the criticisms. This "shoe on ledge" one is a famous OOB account, both controversial, and I mention it because its one I remember reading about in several places before.

Part of what I'm liking in this book is the quantity of reports, which are referenced back to original sources in most cases, and the veracity, minus the interpretation, which are shown. Its just laying them out.

Here is a typical quote from the book.

Subsequently, Lerma took a ladder to the ER. He climbed up the ladder, in the presence of nurses. Lerma wrote, “To our total amazement, there it was, just as he had seen it, and even the year was right: 1985.” He argued that there appeared to be only two possible explanations for the correct description of the quarter: Ricardo had placed the quarter there himself, or he was able to truly see the coin in his out-of-body state. He mentioned that Ricardo, from a medical point of view, had not been in any condition to climb a ladder for years. Lerma also could not establish a link with anyone who worked in the ER.

Rivas, Titus; Dirven,Anny; Smit,Rudolf. The Self Does Not Die: Verified Paranormal Phenomena from Near-Death Experiences (p. 37). International Association for Near-Death Studies. Kindle Edition.
PS. This is my addendum to my own post. This ESP type of communication thing is starting to be more interesting to me. Parley P. Pratt in his theology book (Science of Theology?) talked about spiritual communication. He mentioned this kindof thing happening. Now, I'm not all that sure Pratt was talking from experience, but he certainly believed the things he wrote, IMHO. I recall from Quinn's Magic World View book that Emanuel Swedenborg's book was around back then, and was accessible to JS. (DAMN,...I need to check that reference to be sure I'm not creating myth here...) So, I don't take Pratt's material as "prophetic" or even original. But its interesting that there are continuous references to this type of communication...ESP.

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alas
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by alas » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:40 am

Thoughtful wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:09 pm
The placebo effect is real, but very small statistical power. So I'm not sure its a great example of a paranormal phenomenon. The reason a placebo is useful in a trial is the fact that it's not actually effective.
Actually, the reason they run trials with a placebo is that the placebo effect can help some 40% of patients treated. for some medication in use today, the placebo is just as effective, so with a medication that helps 40% of patients, you have to run against a placebo, and usually against a "standard drug". A standard drug is one that has been around for years, so they know what percentage of people it helps. Depending on the condition being treated, a placebo is between 1 and 50 percent effective. I think with warts and children, it is about 50%. For things like anti depressants, a "good" new medication will help with maybe 30% of trial patients. But the placebo will also help about 20%. And the "standard drug" might help 40%. But because some people do not respond well to the medications that have been around, the pharmaceutical companies are constantly looking for new drugs. My percentages are inconsistent because placebos are inconsistent. It depends on the condition being treated and the age and education of the subjects.

Scientists have even tested placebo pills against each other and the most effective is bright orange and very nasty--looks like and tastes like poison. Sugar pills are not very effective because people taste sugar and know they are in the control group being given a placebo.

There are things we * do* understand that go into the placebo effect. With many things like placebo with diabetes, it may be that taking a pill makes the person more careful with diet and exercise. That effect we do understand. Also, just because the doctors are fussing over them makes some people feel better. They need the attention, so being involved in an experiment helps them feel better. We know people with a good support system are healthier, so putting the person in an experiment lowers the stress of being sick, and for stress related illness like heart disease, the person does better. People with heart problems actually do better with seeing a counselor than they do on meds (this result is 30 years old and we may have better meds) so the fact that the person has the social support of being in an experiment helps, no matter what they are given as meds. There are things like the pneumonia and heart disease where being rejected from the study helps because it tells them they are not that sick, the "quit yer belly aching effect." And the opposite of the quit yer belly aching effect where people get discouraged because they are sick enough to be part of the study, and just "know" they are taking sugar pills, so they get worse.

So, these effects also have to be ruled out, which is why a control group with a placebo is mandatory. There are too many factors, like being in the experiment, like being reminded to do the things they can like exercise, like the placebo effect, like hope, that have to be teased apart from the effect of the actual medication.

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:19 am

alas wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:40 am
Thoughtful wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:09 pm
The placebo effect is real, but very small statistical power. So I'm not sure its a great example of a paranormal phenomenon. The reason a placebo is useful in a trial is the fact that it's not actually effective.
Actually, the reason they run trials with a placebo is that the placebo effect can help some 40% of patients treated. for some medication in use today, the placebo is just as effective, so with a medication that helps 40% of patients, you have to run against a placebo, and usually against a "standard drug". A standard drug is one that has been around for years, so they know what percentage of people it helps. Depending on the condition being treated, a placebo is between 1 and 50 percent effective. I think with warts and children, it is about 50%. For things like anti depressants, a "good" new medication will help with maybe 30% of trial patients. But the placebo will also help about 20%. And the "standard drug" might help 40%. But because some people do not respond well to the medications that have been around, the pharmaceutical companies are constantly looking for new drugs. My percentages are inconsistent because placebos are inconsistent. It depends on the condition being treated and the age and education of the subjects.

Scientists have even tested placebo pills against each other and the most effective is bright orange and very nasty--looks like and tastes like poison. Sugar pills are not very effective because people taste sugar and know they are in the control group being given a placebo.

There are things we * do* understand that go into the placebo effect. With many things like placebo with diabetes, it may be that taking a pill makes the person more careful with diet and exercise. That effect we do understand. Also, just because the doctors are fussing over them makes some people feel better. They need the attention, so being involved in an experiment helps them feel better. We know people with a good support system are healthier, so putting the person in an experiment lowers the stress of being sick, and for stress related illness like heart disease, the person does better. People with heart problems actually do better with seeing a counselor than they do on meds (this result is 30 years old and we may have better meds) so the fact that the person has the social support of being in an experiment helps, no matter what they are given as meds. There are things like the pneumonia and heart disease where being rejected from the study helps because it tells them they are not that sick, the "quit yer belly aching effect." And the opposite of the quit yer belly aching effect where people get discouraged because they are sick enough to be part of the study, and just "know" they are taking sugar pills, so they get worse.

So, these effects also have to be ruled out, which is why a control group with a placebo is mandatory. There are too many factors, like being in the experiment, like being reminded to do the things they can like exercise, like the placebo effect, like hope, that have to be teased apart from the effect of the actual medication.
This placebo stuff is interesting, in that mental faculties have such a physical impact on people. I don't have generally good feelings toward the medical industry. I had a cardiologist tell me that nothing I changed with my food intake would affect my heart arrhythmia concerns. (and, though this is personal, I don't have a problem sharing it...) The guy is an idiot. So, you are telling me (Mr. Doctor) that when I drink too much alcohol and I go into afib that what I just did had no effect? And, you are telling me that when I drink a pot of coffee, feel wired like hell, that what I just did had no effect? and you are telling me that when I ate that last pastry, blowing my insulin out of orbit and go into afib, that what I just did had no effect?...and MR. DOCTOR, you are telling me that when I eat vegan and whole foods for 2 weeks, and then have a period of 4 weeks with NOT A SINGLE AFIB EVENT, that what I ate did nothing?

I'm ok with placebo if that is what is going on with me. But, I confess doctors piss me right off. They think they know so much, but their knowledge base, if you ask me, DOES have some confirmation bias at play.

I also know that this specific doctor isn't a reflection of them all. I keep the guy because he knows me, but I CHOOSE what I do -- its my body, and what I know about myself, placebo driven or not, it what I know about myself.

Rant over!

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