Brushes with "the other side"?

[Thoughtful]

I'm so sorry Rob4Hope. I can't imagine. I had to put my dog down recently and that was traumatizing because clearly even though he was ready, it was violence. What you're describing sounds violent too.

Regarding a few comments upthread about fearing death. I have no fear about death, and I haven't necessarily had a NDE, but IDK if the things I have experienced are why I am not in the slightest afraid of dying OR of losing my family LDS or not. What I do feel about death is an intense curiosity. I do feel a lot of fear about the actual dying part. What freaks me out is grief. Losing people. The thought of people losing me-like my children. It gets me upset. I know that I do some avoidant things. I have to force myself to take pictures and make video recordings of my kids. I am terrified of the idea that they grow up and aren't the same and what if heaven forbid something should happen to them, all those memories. Of course I would want the memories, but I'm terribly afraid of grieving. I noticed that as things have been better with my parents, I'm avoiding them too. I think I have self-diagnosed an attachment disorder and probably should get some therapy of my own for it.

[Reuben]

Of course I would want the memories, but I'm terribly afraid of grieving. I noticed that as things have been better with my parents, I'm avoiding them too. I think I have self-diagnosed an attachment disorder and probably should get some therapy of my own for it.

After some study, including reading many, many stories, I determined that losing my faith was a good approximation of losing a loved one - but with the added difficulties of also losing my tribe and having to suffer through it more or less alone. That doesn't make the prospect of losing a loved one any easier, and if anything I hold to them more tightly than ever before. But I think it means I have an idea of what to expect, and I've practiced pushing through the grief.

[Thoughtful]

Of course I would want the memories, but I'm terribly afraid of grieving. I noticed that as things have been better with my parents, I'm avoiding them too. I think I have self-diagnosed an attachment disorder and probably should get some therapy of my own for it.

After some study, including reading many, many stories, I determined that losing my faith was a good approximation of losing a loved one - but with the added difficulties of also losing my tribe and having to suffer through it more or less alone. That doesn't make the prospect of losing a loved one any easier, and if anything I hold to them more tightly than ever before. But I think it means I have an idea of what to expect, and I've practiced pushing through the grief.

Thank you. I've unfortunately experienced losing loved ones, and there are some comparisons to a faith crisis in some ways, for me, and in other ways it's very different. I do grief work with others frequently, and I am able to interact with it. When it's my own, it's a whole different beast. However, I think culturally we are very grief avoidant, an LDS funeral is really telling about that. Spouseman's uncle recently passed and it's ridiculous the way we tend to outright refuse to acknowledge that there's a loss. In my case, it's more Hiraeth, for example when I grieve that my children are not small anymore--and I have to force myself to take pictures of them knowing I will experience that. It's a double edged sword, I think my ability to detach allows me to do some good work with people who are traumatized or grieving, but it gets in my own way when I don't consciously force myself to confront attachment.

Hiraeth:

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/hars ... ane_868213

[Rob4Hope]

My family members mentioned that 2 relatives will not be allowed to call home this third member in hospice because they themselves are not baptized LDS members.

I choked on my own spit when I heard the conversation.

I've read probably a hundred accounts of NDE where people had OOBE. The VAST MAJORITY of these people are NOT NOT NOT LDS. And in the vast majority of these, those OOBE persons were met by other NON-LDS dead relatives who welcomed them home, to a place of beauty, light, love and REST.

Sounds like paradise to me.

Oh wait. Can't be. ONLY THOSE who are LDS and baptized get to go to paradise. Right?

[Rob4Hope]

Well...I don't mean this thread to turn into a "support" topic, but I just need to write. It soothes and helps comfort my soul.

My family member is in hospice. It isn't what I had envisioned, and the decision to go this route, though not made by me, really is the only choice. While there they don't use tubes and intravenous things. What he takes is given him in his mouth. Half the time he can't swallow it, and it goes down in his lungs, but he is drugged up really bad and he acts like he is choking or drowning. So, the workers suction him out. And he motions that he wants to drink...he is thirsty very badly. He can't speak, he can't move hardly at all and sometimes he seems so agitated and upset. I'm not sure he knows where he is or what is going on, and then more drugs.

I didn't know this at the time, but this type of care really is death by dehydration. His heart, though only pumping 20% capacity, is NOT quitting. So, we are in the wait time.

I was a caregiver for this guy for 8 months. I tended to his comfort, cleanliness, and care. And now I am forced to watch him be put down as it were!

GAWD DAMNIT IT ALL TO EFFING HELL!!!!

I've had to do some fast research on this topic of death by dehydration--and that is exactly what is going on. Many sites and studies actually say its humane--as the ketones and other things kick in with the body, alertness, and pain disappear. Its the panic that seems to come up in his face that bothers me. Its the loss of control.

I was with him for about 5 hours today with other family members and I had to leave: emotionally I can't take much more.

You know, when it comes right down to it, I have to say something from the experience that I couldn't say some 3 months ago. This whole idea of death is NOT trivial in the least. It is serious serious business. In my own experience, I am brushing up against the other side from the perspective of someone losing a loved one, and ideas of pain, suffering, fear, sadness ARE VERY REAL.

There was joy in there. There were good times, and this guy didn't want to be in a care-center wasting away without meaningful life. He has passed that threshold, and now this lingering type of death is disturbing now that we have reached this point.

I hope to make it through this. I am certain it will change me forever.

For those who are concerned for me, YES, I am seeking out a grief counselor. I need help, and I need to weep in my own way.

My life is changing right under my feet.

[Thoughtful]

Well...I don't mean this thread to turn into a "support" topic, but I just need to write. It soothes and helps comfort my soul.

My family member is in hospice. It isn't what I had envisioned, and the decision to go this route, though not made by me, really is the only choice. While there they don't use tubes and intravenous things. What he takes is given him in his mouth. Half the time he can't swallow it, and it goes down in his lungs, but he is drugged up really bad and he acts like he is choking or drowning. So, the workers suction him out. And he motions that he wants to drink...he is thirsty very badly. He can't speak, he can't move hardly at all and sometimes he seems so agitated and upset. I'm not sure he knows where he is or what is going on, and then more drugs.

I didn't know this at the time, but this type of care really is death by dehydration. His heart, though only pumping 20% capacity, is NOT quitting. So, we are in the wait time.

I was a caregiver for this guy for 8 months. I tended to his comfort, cleanliness, and care. And now I am forced to watch him be put down as it were!

GAWD DAMNIT IT ALL TO EFFING HELL!!!!

I've had to do some fast research on this topic of death by dehydration--and that is exactly what is going on. Many sites and studies actually say its humane--as the ketones and other things kick in with the body, alertness, and pain disappear. Its the panic that seems to come up in his face that bothers me. Its the loss of control.

I was with him for about 5 hours today with other family members and I had to leave: emotionally I can't take much more.

You know, when it comes right down to it, I have to say something from the experience that I couldn't say some 3 months ago. This whole idea of death is NOT trivial in the least. It is serious serious business. In my own experience, I am brushing up against the other side from the perspective of someone losing a loved one, and ideas of pain, suffering, fear, sadness ARE VERY REAL.

There was joy in there. There were good times, and this guy didn't want to be in a care-center wasting away without meaningful life. He has passed that threshold, and now this lingering type of death is disturbing now that we have reached this point.

I hope to make it through this. I am certain it will change me forever.

For those who are concerned for me, YES, I am seeking out a grief counselor. I need help, and I need to weep in my own way.

My life is changing right under my feet.

Im so sorry. It really is awful. I don't know why we don't do better for people. Take good care of yourself, my friend.

[RubinHighlander]

Good pod cast on Radio West last night:
http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/heavens-earth

Talks about the history and evolution of God, as well as scientific explanations, reproducible in the lab, of NDEs. I'm not discounting anyone's personal experiences here. However, from my own personal experiences with spiritual things, dreams, funerals of loved ones, drugs, etc., the scientific explanations for me are more plausible than anything else at this point.

[alas]

Well...I don't mean this thread to turn into a "support" topic, but I just need to write. It soothes and helps comfort my soul.

My family member is in hospice. It isn't what I had envisioned, and the decision to go this route, though not made by me, really is the only choice. While there they don't use tubes and intravenous things. What he takes is given him in his mouth. Half the time he can't swallow it, and it goes down in his lungs, but he is drugged up really bad and he acts like he is choking or drowning. So, the workers suction him out. And he motions that he wants to drink...he is thirsty very badly. He can't speak, he can't move hardly at all and sometimes he seems so agitated and upset. I'm not sure he knows where he is or what is going on, and then more drugs.

I didn't know this at the time, but this type of care really is death by dehydration. His heart, though only pumping 20% capacity, is NOT quitting. So, we are in the wait time.

I was a caregiver for this guy for 8 months. I tended to his comfort, cleanliness, and care. And now I am forced to watch him be put down as it were!

GAWD DAMNIT IT ALL TO EFFING HELL!!!!

I've had to do some fast research on this topic of death by dehydration--and that is exactly what is going on. Many sites and studies actually say its humane--as the ketones and other things kick in with the body, alertness, and pain disappear. Its the panic that seems to come up in his face that bothers me. Its the loss of control.

I was with him for about 5 hours today with other family members and I had to leave: emotionally I can't take much more.

You know, when it comes right down to it, I have to say something from the experience that I couldn't say some 3 months ago. This whole idea of death is NOT trivial in the least. It is serious serious business. In my own experience, I am brushing up against the other side from the perspective of someone losing a loved one, and ideas of pain, suffering, fear, sadness ARE VERY REAL.

There was joy in there. There were good times, and this guy didn't want to be in a care-center wasting away without meaningful life. He has passed that threshold, and now this lingering type of death is disturbing now that we have reached this point.

I hope to make it through this. I am certain it will change me forever.

For those who are concerned for me, YES, I am seeking out a grief counselor. I need help, and I need to weep in my own way.

My life is changing right under my feet.

I was the primary care giver for the last year of my mother's life. The hardest point was when she was still in the hospital and they were torturing her with medical procedures trying to prolong her life, but making it very painful. She was completely coherent and able to say, no more treatment. So, she was the in control of her treatment right up to the end. Once she went on hospice and said she wanted to go back to my house, things got easier. But she was able to swallow, right up to the end, so I didn't have the issue with her being uncomfortable or thirsty and unable to drink. Although one is never ready to let go of a parent, I had accepted it was time. It really helped me that she had made the decision to not have more aggressive treatment and go on hospice. My siblings were all there when she decided, so we had a month to come to terms with it.

I wish that having been through it, I had some bit of wisdom that could make it easier for you.

My dad's death was probably closer. He was put on hospice and stayed in the hospital. He was only semi aware, but essentially died of dehydration. He didn't have moments of panic, but just seemed kind of vegetive. If the nurse asked him to move his arm, he could do that, but otherwise didn't respond.

I wish I could do more than just say I am thinking of you.

[Fifi de la Vergne]

Well...I don't mean this thread to turn into a "support" topic, but I just need to write. It soothes and helps comfort my soul.

My family member is in hospice. It isn't what I had envisioned, and the decision to go this route, though not made by me, really is the only choice. While there they don't use tubes and intravenous things. What he takes is given him in his mouth. Half the time he can't swallow it, and it goes down in his lungs, but he is drugged up really bad and he acts like he is choking or drowning. So, the workers suction him out. And he motions that he wants to drink...he is thirsty very badly. He can't speak, he can't move hardly at all and sometimes he seems so agitated and upset. I'm not sure he knows where he is or what is going on, and then more drugs.

I didn't know this at the time, but this type of care really is death by dehydration. His heart, though only pumping 20% capacity, is NOT quitting. So, we are in the wait time.

I was a caregiver for this guy for 8 months. I tended to his comfort, cleanliness, and care. And now I am forced to watch him be put down as it were!

GAWD DAMNIT IT ALL TO EFFING HELL!!!!

I've had to do some fast research on this topic of death by dehydration--and that is exactly what is going on. Many sites and studies actually say its humane--as the ketones and other things kick in with the body, alertness, and pain disappear. Its the panic that seems to come up in his face that bothers me. Its the loss of control.

I was with him for about 5 hours today with other family members and I had to leave: emotionally I can't take much more.

You know, when it comes right down to it, I have to say something from the experience that I couldn't say some 3 months ago. This whole idea of death is NOT trivial in the least. It is serious serious business. In my own experience, I am brushing up against the other side from the perspective of someone losing a loved one, and ideas of pain, suffering, fear, sadness ARE VERY REAL.

There was joy in there. There were good times, and this guy didn't want to be in a care-center wasting away without meaningful life. He has passed that threshold, and now this lingering type of death is disturbing now that we have reached this point.

I hope to make it through this. I am certain it will change me forever.

For those who are concerned for me, YES, I am seeking out a grief counselor. I need help, and I need to weep in my own way.

My life is changing right under my feet.

I wish I had more to offer also. I am so sorry; sending thoughts of strength and comfort.

[Rob4Hope]

We pulled the oxygen at about 1:30 PM, and at 4:00 PM he passed away.

I feel, of all strange emotions, relief. His suffering is past.

I think tonight I may sleep better than expected.

[wtfluff]

Condolences Rob.

[Thoughtful]

We pulled the oxygen at about 1:30 PM, and at 4:00 PM he passed away.

I feel, of all strange emotions, relief. His suffering is past.

I think tonight I may sleep better than expected.

Im glad he has relief. I hope you do sleep very well.

[Reuben]

We pulled the oxygen at about 1:30 PM, and at 4:00 PM he passed away.

I feel, of all strange emotions, relief. His suffering is past.

I think tonight I may sleep better than expected.

Im glad he has relief. I hope you do sleep very well.

I was going to say exactly this. We sit in the ashes with you, Rob.

[RubinHighlander]

We pulled the oxygen at about 1:30 PM, and at 4:00 PM he passed away.

I feel, of all strange emotions, relief. His suffering is past.

I think tonight I may sleep better than expected.

Such a difficult thing to have to go through. I felt similar feelings when my friend finally ended his 3 year long battle with cancers at the end of last year. I have a lot of empathy for his DW, but it was so hard watching him suffer and endure in that dimished state of pain and suffering.

Hoping you continue to find some peace through all of this brother Rob!

[Rob4Hope]

Thank you all for the kindness.

I'm still here. I ain't going no where--you apostates are my clan.

[Red Ryder]

Rob, we are all dying one day at a time. May you be at peace dude. You can now focus on gaining your life and sanity back.

Get some sleep!

[Rob4Hope]

Rob, we are all dying one day at a time. May you be at peace dude. You can now focus on gaining your life and sanity back.

Get some sleep!

You ever come up this way again, lets do the dinner thing.

[redjay]

sorry to hear of your loss Rob.

[EternityIsNow]

adding my condolences also, hope you can get some rest now.

[Rob4Hope]

OK. One of the things that cloud the issues with this whole NDE side is when I read something that tends to negate what I already have fairly good reason to believe.

There is another book: Gaze Into Heaven -- Near Death Experiences in Early Church History.

Its been a few years since I read this, and I was more of a TBM at the time. But this book takes the entire thing from the LDS perspective, and STRONGLY supports that JS and HS are both resurrected and ... well,....gods at this point. They are up there doing their business of presiding and running things, etc. Or so the book indicates.

It seems that what we believe in this mortal life influences our experiences/life if we have NDEs.

I've got another 2 books that are both fascinating, and am plowing through both at the moment. The first talks of "veridical" experience--those where things reported after the NDE can be confirmed as accurate, but could not have been known or observed BEFORE the NDE; meaning, they support that something science can not explain--a type of psychic experience--has in fact happened. The second book flows better and is just a really good one.

All of the books I've read are pretty much from the Christian perspective; meaning, the demographics of those having the experience is primarily Christian--be they active all the way down to agnostic or atheist. I've got a big hole or more eastern beliefs in my book list, and I know it.

The next books I seek out will be from that more eastern perspective. It would be interesting to see the similarities and/or differences.

At this point, I see that "subjectivity" is a MAJOR component of NDE's, or at least it is starting to play out as such.

I do NOT know what to think of the book "Gaze Into Heaven" I mentioned above.