Brushes with "the other side"?

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:24 am

EIN....(I've asked you a lot of questions, but I have one more)...

What is your take on this placebo effect and it coloring or even dictating NDE experience perception? One of the criticisms I've read about NDE and especially OOBE is the mixture of "religious" experiences: you have christians meeting or speaking of Christ; you have Muslims speaking of Muhammad; you have others speaking of their own religious faith--and they often have confirmation that what they believed is THE TRUE WAY.

Your take on placebo (or confirmation bias in this case) and its effects on religiously "confirmed" OOBEs?

Thoughtful
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Thoughtful » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:22 pm

alas wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:40 am
Thoughtful wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:09 pm
The placebo effect is real, but very small statistical power. So I'm not sure its a great example of a paranormal phenomenon. The reason a placebo is useful in a trial is the fact that it's not actually effective.
Actually, the reason they run trials with a placebo is that the placebo effect can help some 40% of patients treated. for some medication in use today, the placebo is just as effective, so with a medication that helps 40% of patients, you have to run against a placebo, and usually against a "standard drug". A standard drug is one that has been around for years, so they know what percentage of people it helps. Depending on the condition being treated, a placebo is between 1 and 50 percent effective. I think with warts and children, it is about 50%. For things like anti depressants, a "good" new medication will help with maybe 30% of trial patients. But the placebo will also help about 20%. And the "standard drug" might help 40%. But because some people do not respond well to the medications that have been around, the pharmaceutical companies are constantly looking for new drugs. My percentages are inconsistent because placebos are inconsistent. It depends on the condition being treated and the age and education of the subjects.

Scientists have even tested placebo pills against each other and the most effective is bright orange and very nasty--looks like and tastes like poison. Sugar pills are not very effective because people taste sugar and know they are in the control group being given a placebo.

There are things we * do* understand that go into the placebo effect. With many things like placebo with diabetes, it may be that taking a pill makes the person more careful with diet and exercise. That effect we do understand. Also, just because the doctors are fussing over them makes some people feel better. They need the attention, so being involved in an experiment helps them feel better. We know people with a good support system are healthier, so putting the person in an experiment lowers the stress of being sick, and for stress related illness like heart disease, the person does better. People with heart problems actually do better with seeing a counselor than they do on meds (this result is 30 years old and we may have better meds) so the fact that the person has the social support of being in an experiment helps, no matter what they are given as meds. There are things like the pneumonia and heart disease where being rejected from the study helps because it tells them they are not that sick, the "quit yer belly aching effect." And the opposite of the quit yer belly aching effect where people get discouraged because they are sick enough to be part of the study, and just "know" they are taking sugar pills, so they get worse.

So, these effects also have to be ruled out, which is why a control group with a placebo is mandatory. There are too many factors, like being in the experiment, like being reminded to do the things they can like exercise, like the placebo effect, like hope, that have to be teased apart from the effect of the actual medication.
But here's the catch -- placebos apparently (sometimes, and inconsistently) affect the perception of pain, including depression, migraines, knee injuries. They do not affect things like cholesterol or lung capacity that are non-subjective well at all. Actually the asthma placebo tests are interesting because they may say they *feel* better, but tests show they can't actually breathe any better. The effect and statistical power of a placebo is weak in non- subjective symptomology.

Bran scans show that a placebo can affect the activity in a particular area of the prefrontal cortex. But then so do things like mindfulness and CBT, also which relate to beliefs and thought habits.

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alas
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by alas » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:41 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:22 pm
alas wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:40 am
Thoughtful wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:09 pm
The placebo effect is real, but very small statistical power. So I'm not sure its a great example of a paranormal phenomenon. The reason a placebo is useful in a trial is the fact that it's not actually effective.
Actually, the reason they run trials with a placebo is that the placebo effect can help some 40% of patients treated. for some medication in use today, the placebo is just as effective, so with a medication that helps 40% of patients, you have to run against a placebo, and usually against a "standard drug". A standard drug is one that has been around for years, so they know what percentage of people it helps. Depending on the condition being treated, a placebo is between 1 and 50 percent effective. I think with warts and children, it is about 50%. For things like anti depressants, a "good" new medication will help with maybe 30% of trial patients. But the placebo will also help about 20%. And the "standard drug" might help 40%. But because some people do not respond well to the medications that have been around, the pharmaceutical companies are constantly looking for new drugs. My percentages are inconsistent because placebos are inconsistent. It depends on the condition being treated and the age and education of the subjects.

Scientists have even tested placebo pills against each other and the most effective is bright orange and very nasty--looks like and tastes like poison. Sugar pills are not very effective because people taste sugar and know they are in the control group being given a placebo.

There are things we * do* understand that go into the placebo effect. With many things like placebo with diabetes, it may be that taking a pill makes the person more careful with diet and exercise. That effect we do understand. Also, just because the doctors are fussing over them makes some people feel better. They need the attention, so being involved in an experiment helps them feel better. We know people with a good support system are healthier, so putting the person in an experiment lowers the stress of being sick, and for stress related illness like heart disease, the person does better. People with heart problems actually do better with seeing a counselor than they do on meds (this result is 30 years old and we may have better meds) so the fact that the person has the social support of being in an experiment helps, no matter what they are given as meds. There are things like the pneumonia and heart disease where being rejected from the study helps because it tells them they are not that sick, the "quit yer belly aching effect." And the opposite of the quit yer belly aching effect where people get discouraged because they are sick enough to be part of the study, and just "know" they are taking sugar pills, so they get worse.

So, these effects also have to be ruled out, which is why a control group with a placebo is mandatory. There are too many factors, like being in the experiment, like being reminded to do the things they can like exercise, like the placebo effect, like hope, that have to be teased apart from the effect of the actual medication.
But here's the catch -- placebos apparently (sometimes, and inconsistently) affect the perception of pain, including depression, migraines, knee injuries. They do not affect things like cholesterol or lung capacity that are non-subjective well at all. Actually the asthma placebo tests are interesting because they may say they *feel* better, but tests show they can't actually breathe any better. The effect and statistical power of a placebo is weak in non- subjective symptomology.

Bran scans show that a placebo can affect the activity in a particular area of the prefrontal cortex. But then so do things like mindfulness and CBT, also which relate to beliefs and thought habits.
Actually the placebo effect can make a difference with cholesterol. Just like it can cure the physical warts on my brother's hands. Sure, it has less effect than on very subjective things, but the effect is still there. The placebo effect is *weaker* in things that are not subjective, but it is still there.

We didn't talk much in my classes about the placebo effect on asthma, so I can't specifically comment on asthma. But we did study it extensively on heart disease, which is not subjective at all, because death was one outcome studied. The tests of heart blood flow, the EKGs, and the death rate all were changed by placebo effect compared to controls who were given no medication. This was a 4 way study testing counseling alone, meds alone, placebo alone, and training in better health things like diet and exercise. That was the first four groups. The next set used a combination of meds and training, training + counseling, training + placebo. So each group was given 1 or 2 out of the four options of counseling, training, meds, or placebo. The placebo groups showed almost as much improvement as the meds groups. Counseling plus meds showed the best results. Trading was least effective. So, yeah, the placebo effect is real on physical things too.

Thoughtful
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Thoughtful » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:50 pm

alas wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:41 pm
Thoughtful wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:22 pm
alas wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:40 am


Actually, the reason they run trials with a placebo is that the placebo effect can help some 40% of patients treated. for some medication in use today, the placebo is just as effective, so with a medication that helps 40% of patients, you have to run against a placebo, and usually against a "standard drug". A standard drug is one that has been around for years, so they know what percentage of people it helps. Depending on the condition being treated, a placebo is between 1 and 50 percent effective. I think with warts and children, it is about 50%. For things like anti depressants, a "good" new medication will help with maybe 30% of trial patients. But the placebo will also help about 20%. And the "standard drug" might help 40%. But because some people do not respond well to the medications that have been around, the pharmaceutical companies are constantly looking for new drugs. My percentages are inconsistent because placebos are inconsistent. It depends on the condition being treated and the age and education of the subjects.

Scientists have even tested placebo pills against each other and the most effective is bright orange and very nasty--looks like and tastes like poison. Sugar pills are not very effective because people taste sugar and know they are in the control group being given a placebo.

There are things we * do* understand that go into the placebo effect. With many things like placebo with diabetes, it may be that taking a pill makes the person more careful with diet and exercise. That effect we do understand. Also, just because the doctors are fussing over them makes some people feel better. They need the attention, so being involved in an experiment helps them feel better. We know people with a good support system are healthier, so putting the person in an experiment lowers the stress of being sick, and for stress related illness like heart disease, the person does better. People with heart problems actually do better with seeing a counselor than they do on meds (this result is 30 years old and we may have better meds) so the fact that the person has the social support of being in an experiment helps, no matter what they are given as meds. There are things like the pneumonia and heart disease where being rejected from the study helps because it tells them they are not that sick, the "quit yer belly aching effect." And the opposite of the quit yer belly aching effect where people get discouraged because they are sick enough to be part of the study, and just "know" they are taking sugar pills, so they get worse.

So, these effects also have to be ruled out, which is why a control group with a placebo is mandatory. There are too many factors, like being in the experiment, like being reminded to do the things they can like exercise, like the placebo effect, like hope, that have to be teased apart from the effect of the actual medication.
But here's the catch -- placebos apparently (sometimes, and inconsistently) affect the perception of pain, including depression, migraines, knee injuries. They do not affect things like cholesterol or lung capacity that are non-subjective well at all. Actually the asthma placebo tests are interesting because they may say they *feel* better, but tests show they can't actually breathe any better. The effect and statistical power of a placebo is weak in non- subjective symptomology.

Bran scans show that a placebo can affect the activity in a particular area of the prefrontal cortex. But then so do things like mindfulness and CBT, also which relate to beliefs and thought habits.
Actually the placebo effect can make a difference with cholesterol. Just like it can cure the physical warts on my brother's hands. Sure, it has less effect than on very subjective things, but the effect is still there. The placebo effect is *weaker* in things that are not subjective, but it is still there.

We didn't talk much in my classes about the placebo effect on asthma, so I can't specifically comment on asthma. But we did study it extensively on heart disease, which is not subjective at all, because death was one outcome studied. The tests of heart blood flow, the EKGs, and the death rate all were changed by placebo effect compared to controls who were given no medication. This was a 4 way study testing counseling alone, meds alone, placebo alone, and training in better health things like diet and exercise. That was the first four groups. The next set used a combination of meds and training, training + counseling, training + placebo. So each group was given 1 or 2 out of the four options of counseling, training, meds, or placebo. The placebo groups showed almost as much improvement as the meds groups. Counseling plus meds showed the best results. Trading was least effective. So, yeah, the placebo effect is real on physical things too.
Ive seen several studies showing 6% or less on placebo group effectiveness for cholesterol reduction. However,
In a study with a "treatment package" like you described, there's some potential for confounds like the relationship between doctor/ patient influencing on treatment success. Nevertheless, the other issue is that placebo effect is extremely difficult to study. Here's one example of why (it doesn't mention the asthma studies, but does discuss allergy treatment, and relationships interacting with treatment)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3146959/

Warts-- I don't have studies I recall reading on that v. placebo, but there's face validity regarding warts responding to placebo similarly to perception of pain, depression, etc responding. Warts are viral, but outbreaks and duration are influenced by immune system factors. Those factors are influenced by subjective experiences-- stress, depression, pain and so on can depress the immune system.

Incidentally, I had a client with complex mental health dx and also treatment resistant HPV wart on his knee. Freezing, surgical removal, cimetidine/ranitidine drug therapy, duct tape, banana peels all failed. So he tried selling it to a magick practitioner and that failed also. He still had it 10 years later when I worked with him, at which point he accepted the wart as part of his life and wasn't interested in trying to remove it anymore. His psychiatrist was also unable to find very effective drug therapy for his depression/ anxiety/ suicidality over several medication trials. CBT treatment had a small effect but acceptance & commitment therapy was ultimately a much better fit for him. I can't say that means anything for predicting mental health treatment based on responses to wart treatments (lol), but it's kinda interesting coincidence.

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EternityIsNow
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by EternityIsNow » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:55 pm

alas wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:40 am
Thoughtful wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:09 pm
The placebo effect is real, but very small statistical power. So I'm not sure its a great example of a paranormal phenomenon. The reason a placebo is useful in a trial is the fact that it's not actually effective.
Actually, the reason they run trials with a placebo is that the placebo effect can help some 40% of patients treated. for some medication in use today, the placebo is just as effective, so with a medication that helps 40% of patients, you have to run against a placebo, and usually against a "standard drug". A standard drug is one that has been around for years, so they know what percentage of people it helps. Depending on the condition being treated, a placebo is between 1 and 50 percent effective. I think with warts and children, it is about 50%. For things like anti depressants, a "good" new medication will help with maybe 30% of trial patients. But the placebo will also help about 20%. And the "standard drug" might help 40%. But because some people do not respond well to the medications that have been around, the pharmaceutical companies are constantly looking for new drugs. My percentages are inconsistent because placebos are inconsistent. It depends on the condition being treated and the age and education of the subjects.
Just want to add that placebos usually fail in longitudinal studies. The 40% placebo effect is short-term, usually a few days or weeks, depending on the condition that is improved. There may be cases where a pathology is permanently changed by the short-term placebo effect, but from what I have studied, in most cases, after the placebo effect wears off, the patient's condition returns to its prior state. Even if they keep taking the placebo.

Personally, I believe the placebo effect is a neurological phenomenon and not paranormal. What this tells us is how amazing the human brain must be in its ability to manage the neural, endocrine and immune systems. Also gives us some clues about how rapid changes in our beliefs can temporarily alter the brain's functional state. I'm sure this phenomenon is at the heart of many religious transformative experiences.

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EternityIsNow
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by EternityIsNow » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:08 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:24 am
EIN....(I've asked you a lot of questions, but I have one more)...

What is your take on this placebo effect and it coloring or even dictating NDE experience perception? One of the criticisms I've read about NDE and especially OOBE is the mixture of "religious" experiences: you have christians meeting or speaking of Christ; you have Muslims speaking of Muhammad; you have others speaking of their own religious faith--and they often have confirmation that what they believed is THE TRUE WAY.

Your take on placebo (or confirmation bias in this case) and its effects on religiously "confirmed" OOBEs?
I love this topic, so have no problem going on and on about it... :)

I don't think the placebo effect has anything to do with the NDE experience. My own NDE happened during a medical crisis, I had a condition that is known to not respond to placebo. You need to read what I already posted above, sorry my writing can be a bit compact, a lot to say and I don't have a lot of time or energy to write. There is a reason people see religious symbolism that is familiar to them, this is part of the design of the NDE, as a transitional experience.

I have little interest in helping out with the validation debate about NDEs. Partly because my experience included many personal proofs, I know it was real. And partly because I have learned that we are not here to answer those types of questions, so it does not really matter whether someone believes in NDEs or not, we will all know they are real after we die... I've had many of the other candidate experiences (drug-induced hallucination, vivid and lucid dreams, temporal epilepsy experiences, etc) and the NDE was unlike any of them. I just posted my belief about placebos as a neurological phenomenon. I do believe there are powers in the universe that we would consider paranormal, but placebo is probably not one of them.

As for alternative explanations for the NDE, I am very familiar with that literature and research. My own belief is that the brain can be put into a variety of states that are incompatible with our consciousness's frequency/energy level, and in those cases a mini-NDE is triggered because our consciousness can no longer 'tune in' to the body's neurological frequencies. So the DMT and God-Helmet induced NDEs in my opinion are real but only partial NDEs. In other words, I see the induced NDE as evidence that NDEs are real, rather than evidence that the NDE is strictly a neurological phenomenon.

As for OOBEs, those are really interesting, they are not NDEs, but they do seem to involve part of the process of an NDE. The OOBE that can be triggered by meditation does sound like separation of the consciousness from the body. I've been out of my body before, in fact that happened years before my NDE. The NDE was orders of magnitude more powerful of an experience, but the OOBE did have some of the elements. Again, I don't think OOBEs are related to placebo, I think they are the 'little brother' of the NDE, your consciousness leaves the body, but it does not shift frequency, so it stays within layers of the universe that are close to this physical plane. Whereas in an NDE you shift to a much, much higher frequency, and a very different layer of the universe (the 'spirit world'). The OOBE is not actually in this physical world, although it seems that way to the experiencer. The OOBE is in a close layer that is a kind of clone of the physical plane. So things in the OOBE universe layer can be similar but slightly different from the mortal plane.

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:06 pm

EternityIsNow wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:08 pm
Rob4Hope wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:24 am
EIN....(I've asked you a lot of questions, but I have one more)...

What is your take on this placebo effect and it coloring or even dictating NDE experience perception? One of the criticisms I've read about NDE and especially OOBE is the mixture of "religious" experiences: you have christians meeting or speaking of Christ; you have Muslims speaking of Muhammad; you have others speaking of their own religious faith--and they often have confirmation that what they believed is THE TRUE WAY.

Your take on placebo (or confirmation bias in this case) and its effects on religiously "confirmed" OOBEs?
I love this topic, so have no problem going on and on about it... :)

I don't think the placebo effect has anything to do with the NDE experience. My own NDE happened during a medical crisis, I had a condition that is known to not respond to placebo. You need to read what I already posted above, sorry my writing can be a bit compact, a lot to say and I don't have a lot of time or energy to write. There is a reason people see religious symbolism that is familiar to them, this is part of the design of the NDE, as a transitional experience.

I have little interest in helping out with the validation debate about NDEs. Partly because my experience included many personal proofs, I know it was real. And partly because I have learned that we are not here to answer those types of questions, so it does not really matter whether someone believes in NDEs or not, we will all know they are real after we die... I've had many of the other candidate experiences (drug-induced hallucination, vivid and lucid dreams, temporal epilepsy experiences, etc) and the NDE was unlike any of them. I just posted my belief about placebos as a neurological phenomenon. I do believe there are powers in the universe that we would consider paranormal, but placebo is probably not one of them.

As for alternative explanations for the NDE, I am very familiar with that literature and research. My own belief is that the brain can be put into a variety of states that are incompatible with our consciousness's frequency/energy level, and in those cases a mini-NDE is triggered because our consciousness can no longer 'tune in' to the body's neurological frequencies. So the DMT and God-Helmet induced NDEs in my opinion are real but only partial NDEs. In other words, I see the induced NDE as evidence that NDEs are real, rather than evidence that the NDE is strictly a neurological phenomenon.

As for OOBEs, those are really interesting, they are not NDEs, but they do seem to involve part of the process of an NDE. The OOBE that can be triggered by meditation does sound like separation of the consciousness from the body. I've been out of my body before, in fact that happened years before my NDE. The NDE was orders of magnitude more powerful of an experience, but the OOBE did have some of the elements. Again, I don't think OOBEs are related to placebo, I think they are the 'little brother' of the NDE, your consciousness leaves the body, but it does not shift frequency, so it stays within layers of the universe that are close to this physical plane. Whereas in an NDE you shift to a much, much higher frequency, and a very different layer of the universe (the 'spirit world'). The OOBE is not actually in this physical world, although it seems that way to the experiencer. The OOBE is in a close layer that is a kind of clone of the physical plane. So things in the OOBE universe layer can be similar but slightly different from the mortal plane.
I'm not a physics buff, but I almost went that route...literally: the topic interested me, but had more of a knack for math so chose mathematics in place of physics. Ended up being a computer guy for my graduate work, but did again look at the physics side of things. I do, however, still dabble a little in physics. Its fascinating!

Some of the latest stuff in physics is still this multi-dimensional concept. I've heard some of the currently renowned physicists (and what is renowned today will be old news tomorrow--that is for sure) explain there are 11 dimensions. One said that higher dimensions are unstable, and when you get into those, they slowly disintegrate back into 11 so 11 is the sweet spot. Now, take this for what its worth--I'm not an expert, and I can ONLY repeat what some of these folks talk about. But this is something that is currently being debated and looked at big time.

Many physicists believe we live in a "lower" dimension, just enough to allow for experience, but constrained and limited, and subsetted in a real way inside the higher levels which are "reality".

In a speculative way, this idea fits with some of the NDE literature. Many of those people (including yourself) talk about energy levels, or "shift[ing] frequencies" as you put it.

Tell me what you think related to this frequency shift? Are we talking some of the stuff these physicists are looking into, or something different?

Thoughts?

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EternityIsNow
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by EternityIsNow » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:41 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:06 pm
Some of the latest stuff in physics is still this multi-dimensional concept. I've heard some of the currently renowned physicists (and what is renowned today will be old news tomorrow--that is for sure) explain there are 11 dimensions. One said that higher dimensions are unstable, and when you get into those, they slowly disintegrate back into 11 so 11 is the sweet spot. Now, take this for what its worth--I'm not an expert, and I can ONLY repeat what some of these folks talk about. But this is something that is currently being debated and looked at big time.

Many physicists believe we live in a "lower" dimension, just enough to allow for experience, but constrained and limited, and subsetted in a real way inside the higher levels which are "reality".

In a speculative way, this idea fits with some of the NDE literature. Many of those people (including yourself) talk about energy levels, or "shift[ing] frequencies" as you put it.

Tell me what you think related to this frequency shift? Are we talking some of the stuff these physicists are looking into, or something different?
Great question. I believe you are referring to M-Theory, which is an overarching string theory. The simple answer is yes and no.

The 11 dimensions of M-Theory are not dimensions that you 'get into'. I hope I can explain this right, the M-Theory/String Theory dimensions are ways to describe how physicists believe the multiverse is organized, and these are 11 ways to measure physical reality, not 11 planes of existence. There could be endless planes of existence, called alternate universes, in M-Theory, as I understand it. Dimensions 1-3 and 4 are spacetime as we know it. But dimensions 5-10 are mathematical abstractions, not geospatial dimensions like spacetime. You mention energy, IIRC energy is the 11th dimension of M-Theory, so that is consistent with NDEs.

If you look at dimensions 5-10 as abstractions that suggest we live in a multi-verse (or in one many-layered universe, which I think is more accurate), I believe those dimensions of M-Theory are consistent with the NDE explanation of the universe. But it is important to clarify that the dimensions beyond 3 are not 'spatial'. All of the NDE experiences I am familiar with, including my own, exist in 4-dimensional 'spacetime'. Although time is more flexible in some layers, something like time still passes by in most layers, but the time there passes at a different rate. I've had an OOBE experience that involved flexible time, so I have experienced this first-hand. Time passed slower for me when I was out of the body, and I could hear and feel time passing about 100x faster around me in the physical world. This was a unique experience and I have never found anyone else who had this happen out of the body. Don't know why that happened to me.

Probably the most important consistency between M-Theory and NDEs is that NDEs involve the travel of our consciousness to 'alternate universes' exactly as described in some explanations of M-Theory's dimensions 5-10. Physicists are trying hard to confirm string theory (searching for the God particle, etc), but I think there is some great evidence for string theory in the NDE experience, if they would consider that (probably not since they can't measure the NDE reality). Maybe the NDE experience is the confirming data the physicists are looking for to validate string theory. The many layers of the universe, the travel between layers by altering vibrational frequencies, and the energy being expressed as light and various forms of matter could be consistent with vibrating string theory/M-Theory and all are mentioned in NDE literature. For example, I believe I experienced a frequency shifting during the tunnel travel part of the NDE. The tunnel was perhaps a type of 'worm hole' that lets us travel between universe layers that exist each at different frequencies. I believe these phenomenon are all consistent with M-Theory's multiple universes allowed by the higher dimensions (5-10). Maybe someday physicists will find a way to consider NDE experiences as a form of data.

I believe the NDE can even add to M-theory. Based on my own experience and study and thinking about this problem since the 1980s, I believe there is a 12th dimension that might be added to string theory, the dimension of consciousness. Why consciousness is a possible 12 dimension would be too much to explain here, but it is really fun that you asked this question. I had forgotten some of my earlier work on this topic, conducted before my NDE, but now I can tie it all together in this explanation.

I need to spend some time trying to remember what I know about how consciousness interacts with the NDE layers of the universe. In particular, I believe I had some information communicated to me about gravity, and how it works the same in all the layers of the universe, how it is a phenomenon of consciousness (the 12th dimension perhaps?). Also I seem to know more about how everything is ultimately constructed from consciousness, how the entire universe is a manifestation of consciousness, and being supported by consciousness. Basically, everything, all matter, has some type of consciousness supporting it, or it would not exist. This information has been coming to me over many years, mostly as pre-earth memory but sometimes I feel like I should study a topic and I need to know more before a memory will be recalled, and make sense. So I have some information that I can sense, but have not deciphered yet.

From what I do know and recall, I think a computer simulation is a good metaphor for how consciousness creates everything. The computer user is analogous to our consciousness, and the many simulations the user can experience are the many layers of the universe. Navigating between layers requires interacting with a user interface, which is icons on the computer simulation, but simply altering brain state in a way that our consciousness is freed from the physical plane in the physical universe. However, a computer simulation is only a metaphor for the universe in an abstract way, the universe is real to us, but it is not really real to the collective consciousness, rather it functions like a simulation would here on earth. I hope this makes at least some sense. My NDE seemed to change how my brain works, and I'm not always sure I am communicating well. Nothing has been the same in my life since that time, I feel like I can tune in to more information in the universe than I ever could before. Also, I have mentioned this before, but my NDE was what made my religion shelf finally crash down, although it took time for me to study out the issue and be certain my experience was consistent with the general phenomenon (which it was completely).

So you are a fan of physics and into IT? I think computer science is to our time what physics was to society 100 years ago. The science that is changing the world dramatically in our age. I have felt drawn to both physics and computers nearly all of my life. I also studied physics in college for a few years, but the computer age was starting with real jobs (unlike physics), so I shifted gears and had an IT career working in business and government. I also had a second career as a researcher, trying to apply computer and cognitive sciences to some important educational problems.

My NDE Story: You asked earlier about my NDE story. My NDE was fairly ordinary, but as I mentioned above, it seemed to change how my brain works and has triggered memories from before this life. The NDE happened during my second career, I became very sick, I had lost a lot of weight and my doctor and DW did not expect me to live. My NDE happened in the middle of the night during this period and I don't know what happened medically, but I either died briefly or was maybe not breathing and just woke up suddenly and realized something was happening. I felt elevated, like an extraordinary spiritual moment giving a talk, or something like that. This went on for a few seconds, it was as if someone was adjusting me to prepare for a shift. Then suddenly my 'spirit' consciousness was pulled out of my body, down through my feet. That was a really strange sensation. I next went through a tunnel, that sounded like a freight train with vibration, and came out into a light, and then a bright world that looked like an idealized earth. I 'flew' around for awhile trying to figure out what had happened. I gradually realized I had probably died or was in the process, which worried me a bit, but I could not do much about that. Eventually I figured out how to explore my environment by using thought to navigate. After some exploring I realized I had perfect vision, and could focus in on something and see it clearly. My vision is pretty bad on earth so this was interesting. Eventually I saw a being, who looked like a person, a black female in an African dress, which seemed out of place, but that being looked at me and communicated telepathically that I needed to return to earth. I did not know what to do, but as I thought of my body I felt myself being pulled back into it. I came to again still very sick, but things slowly started to change, and I recovered from the worst of the illness. I did not appreciate at the time what had happened, but due to a disability and many questions I had as my life became more stable, I began studying the NDE phenomenon, and that led me down the rabbit hole and out of religion. But that is another story...
Last edited by EternityIsNow on Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:51 am

Years ago it was the sense I got of non-accountability from the LDS leadership that finally crashed my shelf. You can't have doctrines taught years ago, still published and made available via books and lds.org, have them come back when needed and denied when not needed, and then shirk accountability for them and still be honest. Doctrinal change by attrition is, to put it frank, a massive cop out.

I started to look at things for the first time back then. Things had become available via the internet. At that point the crash became complete, total, and irreparable. MY GAWD...how blind was I?!! How "mind controlled"?!!

WHAT EASY PREY I WAS!

The most frightening thing to ever happen to me involved this crash. I didn't realize the solace I took in having a "purpose of life" packaged in a nice little box that I could always rely on as needed, taking it out or storing it as situation required. When that little box no longer existed, panic is an UNDERSTATEMENT!

Something I had always suspected seemed more clear: people generally think they are informed when they've seen a small info blurb on TV, or they've overheard people talk about a topic, etc. One of the biggest deceptions I've ever seen EVER is the self delusion of understanding something when the person who claims that understanding knows VIRTUALLY NOTHING of the topic at hand! I've seen a lot of this, and am hyper-aware of the problem.

The greatest intellectual discovery of my life was also the most stark: I KNOW that I DON'T KNOW!

I've wrestled with that for years...YEARS! Its taken a lot of time to make peace with it. At 50 years old,...you think its kindof time?..I sure the H#LL DO!

The peace I've made?....Knowing that I don't know is a pretty good place to start. In fact, its a PERFECT PLACE to start. NOW...FINALLY....I can open my mind, shut my damned ego OFF, and start to learn.

Its about time!

---------------------------------------------------------------
EternityIsNow wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:41 pm
The 11 dimensions of M-Theory are not dimensions that you 'get into'. I hope I can explain this right, the M-Theory/String Theory dimensions are ways to describe how physicists believe the multiverse is organized, and these are 11 ways to measure physical reality, not 11 planes of existence. There could be endless planes of existence, called alternate universes, in M-Theory, as I understand it.
I don't know a lot about this--I'm a novice with some of this stuff, and string theory is part of that. Had to GOOGLE it. But I do appreciate the clarification of on 11 planes of existence not being something you get into.

I am familiar with some of the idea of multi-universes where every possible outcome actually happens. When I first read this,...freaked me the H#LL OUT. But, to apply what small intellectual honesty I have (and I am trying really hard to have some), I suspend judgement and just learn. I don't know enough yet to draw a conclusion. But, the idea is freaky and freaking awesome at the same time of this multi-universe deal.
EternityIsNow wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:41 pm
Dimensions 1-3 and 4 are spacetime as we know it. But dimensions 5-10 are mathematical abstractions, not geospatial dimensions like spacetime. You mention energy, IIRC energy is the 11th dimension of M-Theory, so that is consistent with NDEs.
Einstein once said that intuition is a "sacred gift". My intuition, which I can't prove or disprove in this case, says there is a link between the spacetime dimensions you are talking about here and NDEs. I can't put my finger on it....yet. But dang it...I feel it. There is something to this: my spidey-sense is tingling man!
EternityIsNow wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:41 pm
All of the NDE experiences I am familiar with, including my own, exist in 4-dimensional 'spacetime'. Although time is more flexible in some layers, something like time still passes by in most layers, but the time there passes at a different rate. I've had an OOBE experience that involved flexible time, so I have experienced this first-hand.
This "time" thing is intriguing; it exists in MANY NDEs and is one of the common characteristics that transverse culture, age, religion, ethnicity, etc of experiencers.

One of the things that I eventually need to understand better is how JS somehow got some of this right. I wonder--though I have no proof--if during his leg operation he had an OOB himself. I know the family was into occult teachings, and I'm sure the Swedenborg book was available. So, when there are parallels that happen between NDE and JS teachings, the typical LDS person will apply confirmation bias and say: "See!...Its TRUE! JS KNEW!". My take at this point is that a lot of this information was and has been available for centuries.
EternityIsNow wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:41 pm
The many layers of the universe, the travel between layers by altering vibrational frequencies, and the energy being expressed as light and various forms of matter could be consistent with vibrating string theory/M-Theory and all are mentioned in NDE literature. For example, I believe I experienced a frequency shifting during the tunnel travel part of the NDE. The tunnel was perhaps a type of 'worm hole' that lets us travel between universe layers that exist each at different frequencies. I believe these phenomenon are all consistent with M-Theory's multiple universes allowed by the higher dimensions (5-10).
Spidey sense mate!....tingle tingle tingle. I think there is something to this.

Looks like this thing is going to truncate the rest of my response. .....

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:09 am

EIN...

All the stuff I wrote that got truncated because of my stupid computer boils down to this.

I'm a "reader" (and I don't mean books, though I am reading as fast as I can and have time for). I'm empathic to an uncanny degree. I've freaked a lot of my friends out because of it actually--telling them things they didn't want me to know, but I just did, etc. Also being able to sense "marks" placed on objects or knowing what happened at a place, for example.

Those who are naturalists will scoff at me saying that, but it's OK. I don't claim to be Mr. Prophet guy, or psychic guru of level 9th powers--or whatever (I'm joking here). I don't claim any super-powers. I just have a knack that goes beyond typical or ordinary and I am aware of it, as are many who I associate with. It allows me to be helpful and loving to people, but can also be a burden. Sharing pain with someone when you are plugged in and "reading" them can bring joy, but it can hurt like H#LL to.

This gift gives me the ability to cry with those who cry. So in that sense, a typical LDS person would say its a Spiritual Gift. I think its something I've had for a long time, don't know where it came from, but its there anyway.

In one of the books I read by P M H Atwater, she explained a common phenomenon after NDE is a person's I/Q will actually INCREASE! Can you believe that? I don't think she is making that up. One of the other things that often happens and is coming up over and over as a more common characteristic, is there are various psychic gifts that manifest in people who have had NDEs.

There are probably scoffers out there who, when they read the word "psychic" are thinking...Yeh, rob4hope is going off the deep end again. But I'm not talking about reading cards psychic, or the "psychic hotline" people. I'm talking about gifts like being a "reader" (as I've described above), or being able to sense things, or even this I/Q thing.

How does it make any biological sense for someone to ALMOST DIE (as in their brain starving for oxygen, for example) and come back SMARTER?! I mean,..come on folks! Science can't explain this. I've read some of these stupid (I have to use that word here,...sorry) explanations that grasp so hard it becomes comical. You can't FORCE a square block through a round hole!...(well, I guess you can. LDS Apologist do it all the time!) But you get my drift.

Anyway, this gift thing. There is something to this. I believe this.

EIN...I'm getting a clear sense you were given some of these gifts as the result of your NDE.

Can you share more about this? I am VERY curious....

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by alas » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:44 am

I was not suggesting that the placebo effect was paranormal, but that the things we consider paranormal are really neurological. Our brain is more powerful than we give it credit for, kind of thinking. My point is that if the placebo effect can be explained totally as neurologically (which I believe it is) then maybe OOBE can be explained that way. It is a question, not an opinion.

But then, I don't expect anyone who has had a NDE or OOBE to believe that it is all in our head, because having had an out of body experience myself, I don't think it was all inside my skull. So, not my brain somehow creating the experience and physically seeing what was blocked from my normal vision)

But, let's throw alien abduction into the mix. There are people who swear they are real, but science has an explanation that I kind of think fits. But those who have had them swear that they are so real, just like those of us who have had OOBE swear that it was real. But, not real in my opinion. Their brain wakes up and they are still dreaming, and it is really weird, but they don't really leave their body or go anywhere.

So, my real facination is, where is the line between what is "all in our head" and what is our being outside of our head.

Are my clients who "went into the wall" to escape being sexually abused, really taking their consciousness into the wall, or are they shutting down their brain and imagining what it is like inside the wall? What about the ones who go up to the ceiling and watch this girl get raped? Are they really out of their body and watching or are they shutting off all physical feeling and margining from the perspective of the ceiling? What about my clients with DID (multiple personality for laymen) do they have another (several other) spirit that shares their bodies like some of them believe (possession) or does their identity fragment into these personalities who have different vision, allergies and so on. How can one physical body with one set of eyes have different vision depending on what their brain is imagining? (I had a client whose main personality wore glasses, but an alternate had 20/20 vision.) Just what the heck are the dissociation disorders?

Psychology could not answer my question back when I was in college. My religious professor said bah humbug to the paranormal. My atheist professor was a believer in the paranormal. Confusing.

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Thoughtful » Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:08 pm

alas wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:44 am
I was not suggesting that the placebo effect was paranormal, but that the things we consider paranormal are really neurological. Our brain is more powerful than we give it credit for, kind of thinking. My point is that if the placebo effect can be explained totally as neurologically (which I believe it is) then maybe OOBE can be explained that way. It is a question, not an opinion.

But then, I don't expect anyone who has had a NDE or OOBE to believe that it is all in our head, because having had an out of body experience myself, I don't think it was all inside my skull. So, not my brain somehow creating the experience and physically seeing what was blocked from my normal vision)

But, let's throw alien abduction into the mix. There are people who swear they are real, but science has an explanation that I kind of think fits. But those who have had them swear that they are so real, just like those of us who have had OOBE swear that it was real. But, not real in my opinion. Their brain wakes up and they are still dreaming, and it is really weird, but they don't really leave their body or go anywhere.

So, my real facination is, where is the line between what is "all in our head" and what is our being outside of our head.

Are my clients who "went into the wall" to escape being sexually abused, really taking their consciousness into the wall, or are they shutting down their brain and imagining what it is like inside the wall? What about the ones who go up to the ceiling and watch this girl get raped? Are they really out of their body and watching or are they shutting off all physical feeling and margining from the perspective of the ceiling? What about my clients with DID (multiple personality for laymen) do they have another (several other) spirit that shares their bodies like some of them believe (possession) or does their identity fragment into these personalities who have different vision, allergies and so on. How can one physical body with one set of eyes have different vision depending on what their brain is imagining? (I had a client whose main personality wore glasses, but an alternate had 20/20 vision.) Just what the heck are the dissociation disorders?

Psychology could not answer my question back when I was in college. My religious professor said bah humbug to the paranormal. My atheist professor was a believer in the paranormal. Confusing.
Great questions. People learn astral projection to have OOB at will, but I've heard of some disturbing demonic possession things happening as well while they're OOB, that even if not real, were traumatic.

I watched a documentary about alien abduction and there was a lot of clearly attention seeking behavior, so I didn't believe them at all. But there was one guy that I believe *something* happened. His story was very different than the others, and his disappearance was corroborated by friends who had been searching for him for several days before he was found.

Also, my grandmother and her neighbors saw something large with lights land in a vacant lot in their gated community. They didn't want the news to bother their privacy. There were burned out patches on the weeds the next day. That's a head scratcher -- at least half a dozen people saw the landing and everyone on the street saw the burns.

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:12 pm

alas wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:44 am
I was not suggesting that the placebo effect was paranormal, but that the things we consider paranormal are really neurological. Our brain is more powerful than we give it credit for, kind of thinking. My point is that if the placebo effect can be explained totally as neurologically (which I believe it is) then maybe OOBE can be explained that way. It is a question, not an opinion.

But then, I don't expect anyone who has had a NDE or OOBE to believe that it is all in our head, because having had an out of body experience myself, I don't think it was all inside my skull. So, not my brain somehow creating the experience and physically seeing what was blocked from my normal vision)

But, let's throw alien abduction into the mix. There are people who swear they are real, but science has an explanation that I kind of think fits. But those who have had them swear that they are so real, just like those of us who have had OOBE swear that it was real. But, not real in my opinion. Their brain wakes up and they are still dreaming, and it is really weird, but they don't really leave their body or go anywhere.

So, my real facination is, where is the line between what is "all in our head" and what is our being outside of our head.

Are my clients who "went into the wall" to escape being sexually abused, really taking their consciousness into the wall, or are they shutting down their brain and imagining what it is like inside the wall? What about the ones who go up to the ceiling and watch this girl get raped? Are they really out of their body and watching or are they shutting off all physical feeling and margining from the perspective of the ceiling? What about my clients with DID (multiple personality for laymen) do they have another (several other) spirit that shares their bodies like some of them believe (possession) or does their identity fragment into these personalities who have different vision, allergies and so on. How can one physical body with one set of eyes have different vision depending on what their brain is imagining? (I had a client whose main personality wore glasses, but an alternate had 20/20 vision.) Just what the heck are the dissociation disorders?

Psychology could not answer my question back when I was in college. My religious professor said bah humbug to the paranormal. My atheist professor was a believer in the paranormal. Confusing.
DID is a very sad, yet fascinating thing. And you mentioned this question: "Where is the line between what is 'all in our head' and what is our being outside of our head".

THAT IS A REALLY GREAT QUESTION!

I know less about some of the things you brought up Alas than just about anything. But I know some or all of it is real to some extent. You mentioned you to had an OOBE?

Now I don't wish any trauma on anyone, especially myself--by WHY THE H#LL HAVEN'T I HAD ONE OF THESE SO I HAVE A PERSPECTIVE TO WORK FROM!!!!

ALAS, sounds like you are a mental health professional of some type. Can you share more about this DID phenomena, and specifically about different manifestations when different personalities are dominant. I'm interested in things like being right handed and then switching to left handed. That is, at least to an untrained person like myself, a pretty BIG shift.

Also, someone above mentioned "waking dreams". AHA! I've had one of those! Its called hypnagogic hallucination. It is certainly VERY freaky. In my case, I was aware it was happening, and though frightening, I was 100% certain what it was while it was happening, and I waited it out. But, others may not have been a lucky.

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:24 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:08 pm
alas wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:44 am
I was not suggesting that the placebo effect was paranormal, but that the things we consider paranormal are really neurological. Our brain is more powerful than we give it credit for, kind of thinking. My point is that if the placebo effect can be explained totally as neurologically (which I believe it is) then maybe OOBE can be explained that way. It is a question, not an opinion.

But then, I don't expect anyone who has had a NDE or OOBE to believe that it is all in our head, because having had an out of body experience myself, I don't think it was all inside my skull. So, not my brain somehow creating the experience and physically seeing what was blocked from my normal vision)

But, let's throw alien abduction into the mix. There are people who swear they are real, but science has an explanation that I kind of think fits. But those who have had them swear that they are so real, just like those of us who have had OOBE swear that it was real. But, not real in my opinion. Their brain wakes up and they are still dreaming, and it is really weird, but they don't really leave their body or go anywhere.

So, my real facination is, where is the line between what is "all in our head" and what is our being outside of our head.

Are my clients who "went into the wall" to escape being sexually abused, really taking their consciousness into the wall, or are they shutting down their brain and imagining what it is like inside the wall? What about the ones who go up to the ceiling and watch this girl get raped? Are they really out of their body and watching or are they shutting off all physical feeling and margining from the perspective of the ceiling? What about my clients with DID (multiple personality for laymen) do they have another (several other) spirit that shares their bodies like some of them believe (possession) or does their identity fragment into these personalities who have different vision, allergies and so on. How can one physical body with one set of eyes have different vision depending on what their brain is imagining? (I had a client whose main personality wore glasses, but an alternate had 20/20 vision.) Just what the heck are the dissociation disorders?

Psychology could not answer my question back when I was in college. My religious professor said bah humbug to the paranormal. My atheist professor was a believer in the paranormal. Confusing.
Great questions. People learn astral projection to have OOB at will, but I've heard of some disturbing demonic possession things happening as well while they're OOB, that even if not real, were traumatic.

I watched a documentary about alien abduction and there was a lot of clearly attention seeking behavior, so I didn't believe them at all. But there was one guy that I believe *something* happened. His story was very different than the others, and his disappearance was corroborated by friends who had been searching for him for several days before he was found.

Also, my grandmother and her neighbors saw something large with lights land in a vacant lot in their gated community. They didn't want the news to bother their privacy. There were burned out patches on the weeds the next day. That's a head scratcher -- at least half a dozen people saw the landing and everyone on the street saw the burns.
With regards to the alien thing, I'm open to the possibility of "something" happening, and am not ruling out the idea of government being involved. I'm not a "conspiracy theory" nut, but I'm aware of several government things that are less than disingenuous. One of many lies is the Tuskegee Syphilis Study. Now I DO NOT want to derail this discussion into what I think is a tangential topic, so please forgive me for being direct here. This single example (and there are a LOT LOT LOT more) shows that the government has lied, and is willing to sacrifice life in the process. So, it doesn't seem all that big of a stretch to think there are possibilities with this alien thing, including by not limited to government involvement. That is ALL I want to say about that.

This astral projection thing is directly related to OOB experiences. I've also heard mention of these demonic possessions happening while someone is doing that.

Now, pulling this BACK onto point, I want to mention something George Ritchie said in his book Return From Tomorrow. In the bar he visited as a disembodied spirit, he said he could tell who was embodied and who wasn't by a kindof halo of light surrounding those with bodies. One sailor, who was embodied, was drinking dangerously at the bar. When he became so inebriated he passed out, Ritchie said he saw this halo of light crack open at the crown of this sailor's head and begin to peel down away from his body. The moment that happened, Ritchie said he saw a disembodied spirit launch himself like a snake at that crack and literally slide down into that mans body.

This is what Ritchie said he saw. That is his report.

I find this rather interesting, because the idea of spirit possession is biblical and also part of MANY cultures. I know, for example that voodoo practitioners encourage this type of event through their dance, ceremony, and drug use. Occultists do the same in many instances.

Anyone ever see the movie Ghost with Whoppie Goldberg? Remember the scene where that spirit melded into her body and comically said: "Baby...what you do to your hair?" Then with a few shrugs, Whoppie demanded he "GET OUT OF ME!" and the spirit was thrown out across the room. When I saw that movie the first time,...I SWEAR the script writer had read Ritchie's book. It was, IMHO, what I envisioned a perfect rendition of possession would be like.

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by alas » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:19 pm

My husband has a friend who envies the spiritual experiences like OOBE, NDE, and seeing spirits. My husband has had to tell him to stop wishing for such things. My OOBE was during a traumatic experience. I also have four close friends who have had NDEs, and with all of them they died in the sense that their heart stopped. One was flat lining as far as brain activity. They were just waiting to get the whole family together to turn off the machine, because she was brain dead. They had lined up heart transplant, kidney transplant, and liver transplant recipients. And she woke up. She was flat lining with no brain activity, dead by any measure. So, she woke up and told people what was going on in the room--while her brain was flat lining. How could that be something like she must have been semi conscious, or it was a dream? Her brain was doing nothing, not dreaming, not hearing what was going on, nothing. But she had not only heard, but saw what was happening. She left the hospital and did the whole NDE, with the tunnel and meeting a being who talked to her about her life. She died a couple of years later from then injuries from the car accident. Her brain was damaged, and she never walked again, she was in a powered wheel chair that had belonged to my mother. Another friend died during childbirth, when her uterus exploded, and her child was born way premature and 18 years later still has physical issues, and of course she could not have any more children. She watched as the doctor was yelling to get the cardiac equipment over here, that her heart had just stopped, and she saw her husband pass out during this panic. Another friend died in the dentist chair. She was completely out, under anesthetic, when she had an alergic reaction to the anesthetic, and her heart stopped. She remembers watching from the ceiling as the dentist panicked. She remembers being revived by paramedics, all watching from above, and even read the chart that one paramedic held. It was not where she could physically see it, so no way did she read it with physical eyes. The paramedic confirmed what was on the chart. The final friend died after childbirth because she was hemorrhageing and they had not realized she was losing so much blood. She remembers a monitor going off, but felt irritated by the loud alarm. She tried to get away from the noise, so she went up through the ceiling and saw the patient in the room above her, then she was jerked back into her body by the doctors attempts to restart her heart. She later said what she saw in the room above and had the facts confirmed, that was I dead what was n the room above.

My husband says he saw some dead relatives "hanging around" the hospital room just before his mother died. My mother was in the emergency room with serious berating issues because her lungs were full of fluid, and she says my dead dad was standing just behind the two doctors and three nurses working on her. This was a couple of months before she died.

So, all of these are traumatic, some with life changing consequences, and you don't wanna do that. So, don't go wishing you could have any such experience. Trust me, you do not want the trauma that creates these experiences.

But see, the brain does strange things under stress. So, could it all be our brains? Trauma does strange things. Our brain has more control over our body than most people realize.

Going the exact opposite of the placebo effect, there is a whole class of psychosmatic illness. Some people think this s "faking it" because the injury is not real. But the physical body really is not working. And t is not under the person's conscious control. He does not know that he is creating the illness. The illness is "real" in the sense that the body really is not working. These are reaction to trauma, such as the shell shock seen in WWI, with soldiers having things physically wrong after being in battle, but there was no physical injury. So, maybe his hand is paralyzed. The only way the doctors could tell if the nerve was actually damaged , or if it was shell shock, was because of the way the nerves are bundled going to the fingers. But the nerves were not conducting. That can be measured electronically. But he had trouble with two fingers that are not bundled together, and not the two fingers where the nerves are bundled together. The doctors realized that is not how hands are wired, so they recognized it as something that was psychosmatic. It started in his brain as a reaction to trauma, rather than an injury in his arm. But his nerves really were not conducting. Now that PTSD is more recognized, there is less of the psychosmatic illness, because the military takes efforts to deal with trauma before it reaches the level where the person "creates" their own injuries to get out of battle.

If you really really want such experiences, I understand they can be created by going into a trance, and then you can learn to take up astral projection. So, take up yoga.

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by EternityIsNow » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:26 pm

Those are some amazing NDE accounts alas! Have they been posted online to nderf.org ? They really like accounts with evidence like that.
alas wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:19 pm
If you really really want such experiences, I understand they can be created by going into a trance, and then you can learn to take up astral projection. So, take up yoga.
Look at the Monroe Institute, they have books, meditation CDs, seminars, etc, on how to learn out-of-body travel. Also William Buhlman is probably the modern version of E.Swedenborg today, he has some books and I believe teaches sometimes for the Monroe Institute. Another prolific traveler, is Jurgen Zewie (http://www.multidimensionalman.com). Zewie is probably one of the most successful OOBE travelers ever, beyond Buhlman or Swedenborg in my opinion. Zewie and Buhlman insist that many people can learn this, it is not as much a special gift as a learned skill.

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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:55 pm

ALAS!!!!!!!! THANK YOU for this rocking cool post! Its filled with so much stuff, I will have to read it multiple times!

Your warning about not wishing for a NDE is well received because I do have enough empathy and sense to realize sometimes what you think you want, when all is said and done, you really don't.

The NDE accounts you shared here are of the "veridical" type. The book I'm reading now from the IANDS group is of this type--and when I got that book, I didn't know what that word meant. It means, in the context of the book, an experience that is verified by a 3rd party. So, the clearest example you shared is that clipboard that was read by the consciousness of your friend. It wasn't where it could be seen, but it was read and VERIFIED later as accurate.

This type of confirmation is what the naturalists struggle with. They come up with plausible scenarios that try to discount the accuracy of the story, such as: well, the person is lying; or the person overheard the doctors talking and just manufactured pieces of information to put it all together. You get the idea.

I can understand the skepticism, and I also actually think its warranted, but not for the reasons to discount or discredit the veridical nature of the account; I think the value lies in examining the truth and trying to punch holes in it. I believe TRUTH stands on its own. If something is true, punching holes in it (or I should say ATTEMPTING to punch holes in it) will fail. Why?...because its true, and that is all there is to it. So, if these folks are trying to punch holes in it, but their attempts are failing to really explain the circumstances, then MAYBE there is something to it. Skepticism has value, but its value as far as I'm concerned is helping to establish truth.

One of the places where skepticism crosses a line is the ad hominem attack. I've got another post out there talking about that. Its a favorite (at least it seems that way to me) approach of the typical TBM person who is trying to protect themselves (as in their faith tradition) against questions they can't answer. As soon as someone asks about polyandry, Danites, Kinderhook, BoA, anachronisms (the list goes on), the defense is to stop the questioning by attacking the person asking the hard questions. The same thing happens in just about anything, and ad hominem attacks are VERY common in this arena. NDE and OOBEs are explained away by challenging the mental credulity of the people involved. Hookey, stupid, crazy, waco, etc. Oh,...you have no idea how it made me feel when there were others like PhDs, medical doctors, lawyers, business people of renown, and others who had the experience themselves. It wasn't as easy to attack their credulity. Those folks talked back and didn't put up with all the mud slinging going on. It breathed life into the arena, and arena it is. The whole idea of NDE, OOBE and so forth challenges not only religion, but it even messes with science!

Now, as time is passing, more veridical type of examples are emerging. The simplest answer I've seen so far, applying the occam's razor approach, is that it appears consciousness can exist outside the physical body. And, it even appears there are 'things' outside the body which exist in a different realm.

Wow...there is this strange place out there...this "other side".

And it appears from the responses on this thread that some of you "nomers" out there have had brushes with it!

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Rob4Hope » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:44 pm

I'm liking the non-exaggerated approach this book is taking.

Here is a typical example of a veridical account:
CASE 2.12. Tony Physician Barbara R. Rommer of Fort Lauderdale, Florida, investigated the case of Tony, the husband of Pat Meo, a nursing supervisor at Rommer’s own Holy Cross Hospital. Tony had to undergo a complex open-heart operation in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, in 1993, some 1,250 miles from Fort Lauderdale. During the operation, his heart was arrested for 30 minutes, and he went into a coma that lasted for 2 weeks. During his NDE, he “floated” back to his house in Fort Lauderdale. Later, he told his skeptical wife, Pat, how he had seen that the person looking after their house was having sex there with an unknown girlfriend. He described what the girlfriend looked like in detail. Pat considered the experience as nothing more than a dream, but the man who was looking after the house confirmed the accuracy of Tony’s observations. What really convinced Pat, however, was the description Tony had given of the mail strewn all over their dining room table. He had seen a Danish office supply catalog lying there, that, according to Pat, they had absolutely never written away for. To her utter surprise, they had indeed received the catalog in question that one time. In addition to these paranormal observations, Tony also had a vision of life after death, and when he was sent back, a higher being shared with him the exact date of his death. His mission in life until that time would be to bear witness to his NDE. Over a year after his death, Pat found a small piece of paper in one of her husband’s desk drawers. Written on it was, “Return date: August 29,” the date that corresponded exactly with the day he had died. SOURCE Rommer, B. R. (2000). Blessing in disguise: Another side of the near death experience. St. Paul, MN: Llewellyn.

Rivas, Titus; Dirven,Anny; Smit,Rudolf. The Self Does Not Die: Verified Paranormal Phenomena from Near-Death Experiences (pp. 42-43). International Association for Near-Death Studies. Kindle Edition.

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EternityIsNow
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by EternityIsNow » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:39 pm

Rob4Hope wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:55 pm
Skepticism has value, but its value as far as I'm concerned is helping to establish truth.

One of the places where skepticism crosses a line is the ad hominem attack. I've got another post out there talking about that. Its a favorite (at least it seems that way to me) approach of the typical TBM person who is trying to protect themselves (as in their faith tradition) against questions they can't answer. .... The whole idea of NDE, OOBE and so forth challenges not only religion, but it even messes with science!

Now, as time is passing, more veridical type of examples are emerging. The simplest answer I've seen so far, applying the occam's razor approach, is that it appears consciousness can exist outside the physical body. And, it even appears there are 'things' outside the body which exist in a different realm.
I agree, it seems some skeptics are protecting themselves emotionally from more harm, rather than exploring the topic openly and without bias. The evidence for NDE is some of the best you will find for a subjective phenomenon that relies on human reports. The evidence is solid and growing. And scientific attempts to portray the experience as material tend to ignore the alternate hypothesis that their ability to trigger low-level OOBE type experiences is evidence of how a non-local consciousness might interface with the body.

But some skeptics are so skeptical because of the trauma of having to suffer through the consequences of their own faith transition, so I can understand that, and have been there also. I try to keep my emotions out of these types of discussions, but sometimes that is hard when you know that if people understood this, even the skeptics would have major stress reduction in their lives. Particularly family members, I have a large family, half of whom are now out of religion, and none of them, not a single family member, is interested in this topic. It seems to almost frighten them. The only time any of them have been at all interested was when they were dying (I've lost 3 family members the last 3 years), and even then, they are cautious and only want to know a little. Religion can really, really damage us psychologically, but so can extreme post-religious views that block us from our own progress... Sigh.

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Emower
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Re: Brushes with "the other side"?

Post by Emower » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:44 pm

I havent been following the thread much. I just jumped to page 5. It got deep.

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