Why is D&C 19 not a bigger deal?

[oliver_denom]

This section of the Doctrine and Covenants is one of the earliest examples of Mormon doctrine that really started me questioning the church's claims. Essentially, god explains to Martin Harris that when the Book of Mormon says humanity needs to be rescued from, "...that awful monster the devil, and death, and hell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment" in 2 Nephi, Jacob, Mosiah, and Moroni; that god didn't really mean endless torment, but "endless" torment.

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.
...
10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

That by itself was incredibly unsettling. God is admitting that his word, his scripture, is INTENTIONALLY misleading because fear of eternal punishment is somehow necessary to glorify his name. But then I decided I had to dig deeper to figure out where this is coming from, because I knew that I had to be misunderstanding it.

That's when I found the backstory. This entire revelation was received because Martin Harris held Universalist beliefs and didn't believe in hell. This was a huge problem for Smith, because it was Harris bankrolling the printing of the Book of Mormon. Without Harris, there wasn't a book, and he wasn't keen on publishing pages which promised people a hell he didn't believe in. Obviously Smith couldn't re-write the book, it was supposed to be a translation by the gift and power of god. So what could he do? He produced a revelation using reasoning that my ten year old would laugh at.

Then section 19 gets down to the real business at hand beginning in verse 26:

26 And again, I command thee that thou shalt not covet thine own property, but impart it freely to the printing of the Book of Mormon, which contains the truth and the word of God—
...
32 Behold, this is a great and the last commandment which I shall give unto you concerning this matter; for this shall suffice for thy daily walk, even unto the end of thy life.

33 And misery thou shalt receive if thou wilt slight these counsels, yea, even the destruction of thyself and property.

34 Impart a portion of thy property, yea, even part of thy lands, and all save the support of thy family.

35 Pay the debt thou hast contracted with the printer. Release thyself from bondage.

This section begins with god letting Harris know that he wasn't serious about eternal punishment, but then threatens his property and happiness if he doesn't keep paying the printer.

Of all things that people site as evidence against the truth claims of the church, how is D&C 19 not at the very top of the list of smoking guns? Of the many revelations produced by Joseph Smith, this one stands out as the most ridiculously stupid. It's only rival is perhaps section 132 where he states that polygamy needs to be conducted only with the assent of the first wife, all the while Smith was hiding his own marriages, and then threatens Emma with destruction if she wouldn't go along with it.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

I think universalism was more prevalent than just Martin Harris. You had father Smith that was also a strong universalist. It seems Joseph had to somehow reconcile all those conflicting religious ideas he was brought up with. Certainly it does appear to be a manipulation play on Harris.

[Corsair]

I think it was simply effective for Martin Harris and still resonates with many Mormons as the kind of Old Testament God that they assume they are living under. Yes, it looks like a shakedown of Martin Harris, but this is in line with the more intense physical sacrifices of the 19th century. I think it has the weird effect of reassuring Mormons today. Since modern Mormons are not getting chastised and fleeced like poor Brother Harris, this righteously implies that the average modern Mormon is living in a manner pleasing to Mormon God. With salvation reassured, the average Mormon can proudly look down on the disobedience of Martin Harris as a cautionary tale.

[deacon blues]

If my memory serves correctly I was bothered by D&C 19 the first time I heard it in Seminary. The idea is staggering; God misleads us, in scripture. This is the god I'm supposed to worship as a god of truth? However, no one else in the class raised a stir, and so I went quietly on down the road of indoctrination. Later in life, understanding the context as Oliver explains it so well, I agree. Do people read this, understand the context, and still believe Joseph was inspired by a loving God?

[Emower]

Yeah, along with Corsair I think that this oddly serves as a connection to the awful mean God we learn about in the Old Testament. God shook down a lot of people for a lot of different stuff in the Old Testament and this is enough similar that it does not raise any flags.

Edit: It does not raise flags for someone not thinking critically.

[alas]

The first time I read through the D&C, I kept thinking, "How convient for Joseph Smith." There are several places where "God" instructs some poor sucker to give Joseph money, or do what Joseph wants. Not just this one with Martin Harris and 132 with threatening Emma, but several of them. Prophecy convient to no one but Joseph.

So, I would answer your question about why isn't this smoking gun talked about more often as there are simply too many smoking guns. There are so many instances where Joseph used his supposed authority to manipulate people. From the way he told women that he would be destroyed if they didn't pretend marriage and hop in bed with him, to the way he threatened Emma if she didn't go along with polygamy, to sticking prophecies about himself into the BoM, to having himself declared general of the militia, mayor of the city, and King of the world. There is and story told in Rough Stone Rolling where town members got together to have friendly debates. This particular night they were debating some religious topic and Joseph's brother William was winning the debate. Almost to the end of the debate, Joseph comes, interrupts the debate and breaking all the rules of debate says This is how it is, because I am the prophet, and I win the debate. He violated all the rules of debate and declared himself the winner of a contest he was not even part of. Well, William punched him in the face for his pulling "I am the prophet so I win."

So many many cases where if you apply critical thinking you see his behavior as an egotistical child using the belief others had that he was a prophet to manipulate them into giving the spoiled child what he wanted, and not any where near what you would expect from a prophet.

[Palerider]

It really isn't different from the revelation on using water instead of wine for the sacrament.

Backstory is that the Whitmers? came by to visit Joseph and decided to do the sacrament. Joseph had no wine (or money) but let on that he would take his buggy to town and buy some.

A short time later he returns with the story of an angel appearing to him and stating that wine isn't necessary, water is "okey dokey" and it's the thought that counts (paraphrasing).

Total revelation of convenience and not masked very well at all. The really sad part is how gullible and susceptible people were to his charms. Total charismatic con man.

[LaMachina]

Two things come to mind:

1) The D&C is easily the least read book in mormon canon. Besides some odd verses here and there (like the Eternal punishment section) mormons don't read it. Honestly I never put two and two together on that section til your post. I don't know if I've ever read that particular section beginning to end and I've never read D&C start to finish. And I read the BofM, PofGP and even the NT many times.

2) This is why it's so important to indoctrinate early. Someone who does run across that verse who is convinced Joseph is a prophet will be able to brush it off or at least put it on the shelf. Someone without that worldview will look at that passage and say - holy crap...what a manipulative a-hole.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

Interesting! Where can I read more about this back story?

I also remember reading D&C 19 in Seminary. I thought it was cool that Mormons didn't believe in an endless hell, because that didn't make sense to me, either. If I remember the discussion correctly, we learned that "endless" meant endless in magnitude, but not endless in duration. It's sort of like a fire of infinite power and heat will burn you up, but the burning will not last indefinitely. It certainly gave me pause, but I tried my best to wrap my head around it, and eventually it kinda made sense.

Hearing that back story makes more sense, though! I think the other posters are right, too- Universalism didn't only appeal to Harris. I think most compassionate people wouldn't like the idea of an endless hell for anybody. Joseph Smith may have felt this way, too. I get the idea that Smith was often just trying to correct things he saw as problems within Christianity. And if he felt his ideas were right, he assumed they were right. Didn't he say something like, if he couldn't get a revelation, he just went with his own thinking, which was just as good (but he never said something was a revelation if it wasn't)? I wish I could find that quote again!

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Another reason these inconsistencies don't trigger any response from our stage 3 members is that the D&C is all "revelation from God through the prophet Joseph Smith" it is simply not even on the thought radar to contemplate that it could be Joseph trying to get what he wants.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

Another reason these inconsitencies don't trigger any response from our stage 3 members is that the D&C is all "revelation from God through the prophet Joseph Smith" it is simply not even on the thought radar to contemplate that it could be Joseph trying to get what he wants.

Never occurred to me for many years.

[moksha]

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

Was this eternal and endless punishment threat used when the thought of Joseph being skewered, on the Angel's drawn sword, proved insufficient to assure compliance?

When you read something extreme, you always wonder what was going on with the author when they wrote it. Were they angry, horny, or perhaps ingested a spot of bad mustard? Had their pet turtle died or perhaps a really neat trick involving wooden planks just under the surface of the water had fallen through?

[oliblish]

Interesting! Where can I read more about this back story?

There is a Mormon Expression podcast about D&C 19 which goes into detail about the back story:

http://mormonexpression.com/?p=1973

[Hagoth]

D&C 19 is a huge deal for me. It is just so obviously Joseph manipulating Martin for money. Why didn't God just let Joseph use his rock and find some treasure to pay the printer?

Another biggie for me is D&C 124 wherein the Lord commands the people of Nauvoo to build a hotel for Joseph and his family...

59 Therefore, let my servant Joseph and his seed after him have place in that house, from generation to generation, forever and ever, saith the Lord.

...and then proceeds to list people by name who are supposed to contribute.

I think of how specific the instructions are for building Joseph's hotel when I read in the polygamy essay that God didn't give clear instructions (even though he did in D&C 132 and Joseph ignored them) so Joseph had to fumble his way through the whole celestial marriage thing.

On top of everything else this is a false prophecy. Joseph did get his hotel but his family failed to "have place in that house, from generation to generation, forever and ever."

[BriansThoughtMirror]

There is a Mormon Expression podcast about D&C 19 which goes into detail about the back story:
http://mormonexpression.com/?p=1973

Thanks!

[The Beast]

Infinite torture can only be a punishment for infinite evil, and I don't believe that infinite evil can be said to exist even in the case of Hitler. Besides, if most human governments are civilized enough to try to eliminate torture and outlaw cruel and unusual punishments, can we expect anything less of an all-merciful God?

I feel that if there were an afterlife, punishment for evil would be reasonable and of a fixed term. And I feel that the longest and worst punishment should be reserved for those who slandered God by inventing Hell.
Isaac Asimov I. Asimov: A Memoir (1994)

[Dravin]

If my memory serves correctly I was bothered by D&C 19 the first time I heard it in Seminary. The idea is staggering; God misleads us, in scripture. This is the god I'm supposed to worship as a god of truth? However, no one else in the class raised a stir, and so I went quietly on down the road of indoctrination. Later in life, understanding the context as Oliver explains it so well, I agree. Do people read this, understand the context, and still believe Joseph was inspired by a loving God?

Yep. I'm sure we're all familiar with the phrase lying for the Lord, well, this is lying by the Lord. "God is not a man that he should lie" indeed.

[Josephsmith]

Hey guys, dont shoot the messenger. Wait...

[Hagoth]

Hey guys, dont shoot the messenger. Wait...

Well, maybe you should have been a little bit more demanding in the quality of information you needed to get the message across, because something was getting lost in translation.

p.s. was it always angels or did you ever get to hang out with any cool dead people like Genghis Khan or Leonardo da Vinci?

[slavereeno]

Hey guys, dont shoot the messenger. Wait...