God and Mary the mother of Jesus

[GoodBoy]

In honor of Christmas time here are some questions I have been wondering about:

* Was Jesus the literal son of God and Mary? I think in order for Mormon doctrine to work out, he had to be. (1/2 God, 1/2 man and therefore uniquely able to perform the atonement and resurrection).
* If so, was God married to Mary?
* If He wasn't, then He had sex with someone that wasn't his wife. If He was, and Mary was also married to Joseph, does this show that both polygamy and polyandry is OK?
* What did our Mother in Heaven think of this?
* Did God marry and/or possibly have sex with other humans?

[slavereeno]

I asked some of these questions when i was in my early 20s. My dads answer was that God sort of "borrowed" Mary's body. Like her soul was placed in some kind of suspended animation, and heavenly mother's soul was put in there for the deed, then everything was put back the way it was.

Any further inquiry was met with it being "one of the mysteries of God" or that it was too sacred to talk about.

I have sort of put the brakes on my deconstruction. I feel as though I can't answer this in a way that preserves an atoning theology. Maybe if Christ was born in the normal way, but as he became more of what he was supposed to become as he went along. His apotheosis, occurs through greater understanding, and exercising of that understanding. I guess I am not sure.

A friend of mine discusses a book from the apocrypha that has a young Jesus using his power to lash out at someone, wish I could remember the reference.

[Palerider]

In honor of Christmas time here are some questions I have been wondering about:

* Was Jesus the literal son of God and Mary? I think in order for Mormon doctrine to work out, he had to be. (1/2 God, 1/2 man and therefore uniquely able to perform the atonement and resurrection).

From a Christian point of view, I think this is a mystery that doesn't bother me. He is the literal Son of God but if God can create the Universe, I don't see getting this accomplished as a huge hurdle. Mormons (Joseph and other leaders) in their limited and childish way just have to bring this down to their earthly level to try to explain it.

* If so, was God married to Mary?

No, She was a sacred "chosen vessel", the handmaid of the Lord...not the "wife" of the Lord. I guess it was just beyond some earth-bound people with limited vision, to see her calling as strictly sacred rather than marital.


* If He wasn't, then He had sex with someone that wasn't his wife.

It's just impossible that God could accomplish his work in some other way than through sex isn't it? Kind of tells you how Jospeh and Brigham's minds worked doesn't it....

, and Mary was also married to Joseph, does this show that both polygamy and polyandry is OK? NO...
* What did our Mother in Heaven think of this?

There's no scriptural comment on this issue. All we have are the temporal, earth-bound thoughts of soothsayers which are useless.


* Did God marry and/or possibly have sex with other humans?

If no one can see God and live, I wonder what the chances are of this actually happening.....

[Just This Guy]

Maybe god just used his Kolob transporter to beam the fertilized egg into Mary's uterus.

[Palerider]

You mean like invitro fertilization? I just don't think God is smart enough to figure that out....that's something only man could do...

[slavereeno]

From a Christian point of view, I think this is a mystery that doesn't bother me. He is the literal Son of God but if God can create the Universe, I don't see getting this accomplished as a huge hurdle. Mormons (Joseph and other leaders) in their limited and childish way just have to bring this down to their earthly level to try to explain it.

That makes enough sense, for crying out loud man can do this today in a hospital.

[LaMachina]

In honor of Christmas time here are some questions I have been wondering about:

* Was Jesus the literal son of God and Mary? I think in order for Mormon doctrine to work out, he had to be. (1/2 God, 1/2 man and therefore uniquely able to perform the atonement and resurrection).
According to Mormon theology, yes. Although I think in order for any Christian doctrine to work Jesus also has to be equally human and divine.
* If so, was God married to Mary?
According to early church leaders, yes. I haven't found modern leaders who contradict this?
* If He wasn't, then He had sex with someone that wasn't his wife. If He was, and Mary was also married to Joseph, does this show that both polygamy and polyandry is OK?
According to mormons, in particular early mormon leadership, it was absolutely ok.
* What did our Mother in Heaven think of this?
I guess it depends how she viewed her sister-wife Mary? I imagine their feelings were "complicated".
* Did God marry and/or possibly have sex with other humans?
Not that I'm aware of but we have records of angels getting it on. Does that count?

While mormonism's position on the immaculate conception is certainly problematic I don't find it any more problematic than all of Christianity's position on it. It seems to be another case of "I prefer my weird and irrational explanation over yours" which we see in so many other religious arguments over such things as:
the nature of the Eucharist, what the Holy ghost actually is and whether our problems are caused by demons or thetans.

It is interesting to see some become very offended by the notion of celestial p in v. Whether we lean towards the purity model (much of "mainstream" Christianity) the lothario model (good ole Joseph) or try to straddle the difference (modern mormonism) I think it speaks to our inability to have healthy views on sex. Personally, I vote we all go back to paganism and female deity worship.

[alas]

In honor of Christmas time here are some questions I have been wondering about:

* Was Jesus the literal son of God and Mary? I think in order for Mormon doctrine to work out, he had to be. (1/2 God, 1/2 man and therefore uniquely able to perform the atonement and resurrection).
According to Mormon theology, yes. Although I think in order for any Christian doctrine to work Jesus also has to be equally human and divine.
* If so, was God married to Mary?
According to early church leaders, yes. I haven't found modern leaders who contradict this?
* If He wasn't, then He had sex with someone that wasn't his wife. If He was, and Mary was also married to Joseph, does this show that both polygamy and polyandry is OK?
According to mormons, in particular early mormon leadership, it was absolutely ok.
* What did our Mother in Heaven think of this?
I guess it depends how she viewed her sister-wife Mary? I imagine their feelings were "complicated".
* Did God marry and/or possibly have sex with other humans?
Not that I'm aware of but we have records of angels getting it on. Does that count?

While mormonism's position on the immaculate conception is certainly problematic I don't find it any more problematic than all of Christianity's position on it. It seems to be another case of "I prefer my weird and irrational explanation over yours" which we see in so many other religious arguments over such things as:
the nature of the Eucharist, what the Holy ghost actually is and whether our problems are caused by demons or thetans.

It is interesting to see some become very offended by the notion of celestial p in v. Whether we lean towards the purity model (much of "mainstream" Christianity) the lothario model (good ole Joseph) or try to straddle the difference (modern mormonism) I think it speaks to our inability to have healthy views on sex.Personally, I vote we all go back to paganism and female deity worship.

I had to laugh over the idea of going back to paganism to solve this problem. After all, Zeus was known to have all kinds of affairs with mortals. He was constantly having sex with human woman, much to his wife's anger.

There is a theory that the Jews picked up the idea of a Savior being the son of God while they were in captivity in Babalon. The author's evidence as I remember it is that the religion of Babalon BEFORE the Jews arrived had a prophecy about a virgin would swim in some specific lake, and (head)God would rain down his sperm into the lake to impregnate her. And this child would act as their Savior. The Bible has no such prophecy until it was inserted later into Isaiah. This is the deutero Isaiah that is in the BoM that was not written before the exile, so it couldn't have possibly been in the brass plates Nephi got before the exile. So, existing legend in Babalon, and no such prophecy before the exile to Babalon. Then the two religions sort of mix together when Daniel converts King Darious to "one God". And when the Jews returned after exile, they brought with them parts of the Babalonian religion such as the story of the Garden of Eden (located between the two rivers in Babalon.) and the idea of a son of God as Savior. Then three Magi came out of Babalon to worship the newborn Savior.

[moksha]

Hard to imagine that God the creator of the universe would be able to bring anything into existence without boinking it. Boinking in all its splendor is the basis for Mormon belief throughout the dispensations. Any talk of creation that does not involve boinking is heresy and might need to be resolved at the Stake Council level.

Hope that helps.

[GoodBoy]

Hard to imagine that God the creator of the universe would be able to bring anything into existence without boinking it. Boinking in all its splendor is the basis for Mormon belief throughout the dispensations. Any talk of creation that does not involve boinking is heresy and might need to be resolved at the Stake Council level.

Hope that helps.

Yes. Very helpful thank you! LOL

[LaMachina]

I had to laugh over the idea of going back to paganism to solve this problem. After all, Zeus was known to have all kinds of affairs with mortals. He was constantly having sex with human woman, much to his wife's anger.

That's exactly what I'm rooting for! Of course it can be argued how healthy the Greek pantheon's approach to sex was/is but I prefer it to the approach that God would never sully himself to get it on.

Let's say we go with the Trinitarian, Catholic view. Jesus is literally God incarnate. He must condescend to become human, live as a human, suffer as a human. He eats, drinks, sleeps and I'm gonna assume he relieves himself. But he never, ever has sex - cuz it's dirty and sinful. Can he really relate at that point? Does he really understand what it means to be human? I have my doubts.

If there's one thing I almost admire about mormonism it is the attempts to combine Christianity and Paganism. But of course they screwed it up!

[Palerider]

Let's say we go with the Trinitarian, Catholic view. Jesus is literally God incarnate. He must condescend to become human, live as a human, suffer as a human. He eats, drinks, sleeps and I'm gonna assume he relieves himself. But he never, ever has sex - cuz it's dirty and sinful.

I can't say whether Catholics teach this or not but I would argue most Christians don't view sex as "dirty" but rather a blessing under the right circumstances.

Christ knowing what it means to be human doesn't necessarily require his experiencing every degrading thing that a human can do. Why stop at sex? Maybe he should have molested a child so he could truly "understand" what it means to be human.

Understanding the TEMPTATION and yet not yielding to it is quite another thing.

In psychology the act of "projecting" is taking our own personality flaws or ways of acting and thinking and projecting them on to another individual whether they actually think that way or not. Thus the Greeks when imagining their gods gave them characteristics born of their own human flaws.

Does it seem odd then that humans have a difficult time dealing with a God that prefers a higher order of behavior than that to which they are accustomed?

[LaMachina]

I think that fleshes out exactly my point. Sex isn't degrading and most Christians/Mormons would agree (within limits) yet Christianity has fetishized virginity thanks to ideas like the perpetually virginal Mary and Jesus, plus Paul's stance on what makes one truly worthy to serve God.

Why is it degrading for God to do it? Is having a loving relationship a temptation? Or is it a blessing? Jesus enjoyed the blessing of having a family in his youth, why deny him a loving intimate relationship in his adulthood?

As a bit of a sidebar, was Jesus tempted to molest children? He would have to be to fully atone for humanity's ills I'm assuming, right? ...I know mormons who would suggest he was anyways. I find that notion more disturbing than the thought that he and Mary Magdalene were an item or God impregnating Mary but that may be my enviornment and disposition influencing me.

I do think that the Judeo-christian god has a lot more in common with the "projected" Greek gods than is sometimes given credit (see OT )

But in all this I hope I don't come across as overly antagonistic. I find the conversation really interesting.

[Josephsmith]

It is interesting how the entire Christian world views sex in a very dirty and "necessary evil" way. Sex was/is great! If God wants to use that method whats the big deal?! Look at most of the worlds mythology. Lots of it has to do with Gods coming down and messing around with Humans. Marking sex with God off your bucket list may not be all that bad!

[Palerider]

It is interesting how the entire Christian world views sex in a very dirty and "necessary evil" way.

Where does it say this? I mean I know there are possibly a few misguided historical figures who may have thought this but could you show me where the "entire Christian world view" of sex is that it's "very dirty"?

[LaMachina]

Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman... I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

I agree that good ole Joe exaggerates the position of the Christian worldview. As you can see above though, there are passages (plenty in my view) that are far from ringing endorsements. I imagine Paul wouldn't call sex "dirty" but perhaps "unsavory" or even, as you mentioned, "degrading".

It is interesting (to me anyways) that you can have two individuals claiming worship of the same god and one will swear off sex entirely while the other will acquire dozens and dozens of wives.

But the scriptures are nothing if not a little contradictory. So I issue a challenge in return: Where in the Christian worldview is the Joy of sex extolled? Not the obligation or responsibility but the joy? I can think of a couple scriptures that in a pinch could be forced to fit but I'm wondering if there are some better references?

[wtfluff]

But the scriptures are nothing if not a little contradictory. So I issue a challenge in return: Where in the Christian worldview is the Joy of sex extolled? Not the obligation or responsibility but the joy? I can think of a couple scriptures that in a pinch could be forced to fit but I'm wondering if there are some better references?

Thank you. I had the same question.

I don't think we even want to get started on the "mormon world-view" of sex.

[alas]

But the scriptures are nothing if not a little contradictory. So I issue a challenge in return: Where in the Christian worldview is the Joy of sex extolled? Not the obligation or responsibility but the joy? I can think of a couple scriptures that in a pinch could be forced to fit but I'm wondering if there are some better references?

Thank you. I had the same question.

I don't think we even want to get started on the "mormon world-view" of sex.

Oh, but I thing getting started on the Mormon view of sex is the next logical step, because it is a weird combination of the "sex is degrading" and "sex is only for procreation" VS "we will be having sex as Gods" and "God had sex with Mary."

See, we can teach the girls in YW that after they have sex they are forever a chewed piece of gum, with no discussion of consent, or that it is OK after marriage, or the atonement fixing the dirt they get on them. Nope, it is taught as once you lose your virginity, you are forever damaged goods.

Then we go to SS and teach the same girls that Mary was not a virgin after all because God had sex with her. (How then is it a "virgin birth"????) and we can teach them that their reward in Heaven is to be in a harem along with hundreds of other women to their husband who will be God.

Then back to YW where we teach them that they are better off dead than losing their virginity, and putting that in the context of rape. And we teach them that their highest calling is to be a mother, but never mention that they have to lose their virginity in order to do that, but remember that if you lose your virginity you are forever worthless to God and not good man will ever want you.

And then in Sunday school we talk about how much Joseph loved Emma, but we get this sick feeling in the pit of our stomach when the lesson talks about how he eloped with her against her father's will when we wonder if defying her father was what was best for Emma. And someone in the congregation brings up something about poligamy that gets shut down so fast it leaves your head spinning.

Then back to YW for a lovely lesson on how it is your duty to satisfy your husband or he will leave you for someone else, and this woman is so obviously unhappy in her marriage that you feel slightly sick. Then in the hall after class you hear some men ( bishopric) gossip about a nineteen year old who has "decided to keep her bastard."

And then we wonder why my friend I grew up with and shared all those wonderful lessons in YW's, could not bring herself to consummate her wedding. After two years of counseling he finally divorced her because she was still so terrified she would be forever worthless if she had sex with her husband.

Nothing at all wrong with those lessons in YW.

Yeah, but God had sex with Mary, who was under the legal age of consent, but then we never did talk about consent in YW's anyway.

[ulmite]

Huh. In all my years of Church attendance I never once heard that God and Mary actually did it. I always thought that God just 'magically' fertilized an egg cell in Mary's womb. All you really need is a set of chromosomes. No sweat compared to healing all sorts of diseases and raising people from the dead. Or creating the world.

[LaMachina]

I heard about the theory in seminary but it was dismissed as a "mystery". From what I can tell it was common knowledge once upon a time but went the way of many mormon ideas that made people uncomfortable:

Melvin J. Ballard:

as to whether or not his was a virgin birth, a birth wherein divine power interceded... So it came upon her to prepare her for admittance into the divine presence, and the power of the Highest, who is the Father, was present, and overshadowed her, and the holy Child that was born of her was called the Son of God. Men who deny this, or who think that it degrades our Father, have no true conception of the sacredness of the most marvelous power with which God has endowed mortal men--the power of creation. Even though that power may be abused and may become a mere harp of pleasure to the wicked, nevertheless it is the most sacred and holy and divine function with which God has endowed man. Made holy, it is retained by the Father of us all, and in his exercise of that great and marvelous creative power and function, he did not debase himself, degrade himself, nor debauch his daughter. Thus Christ became the literal Son of a divine Father, and no one else was worthy to be his father

Bruce R. McConkie:

…our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only, begotten means begotten, and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in He same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers … There is no need to spiritualize away the plain meaning of the scriptures. There is nothing figurative or hidden or beyond comprehension in our Lord's coming into mortality. He is the Son of God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers. It is just that simple

But one thing I can absolutely agree on. The way mormons approach and teach this stuff is royally messed up...especially for young women.