Elder Bednar's latest tithing story

[Reuben]

The ex-Mormon subreddit has two independent posts retelling a story that Elder Bednar told in a Southeast regional conference talk today.

a father who had not paid his tithing in some time and had let his temple recommend lapse had a daughter who was going to get sealed in the temple. So he decided to speak to the bishop about it. This guy pays his backlog of tithing as instructed and is then denied his temple recommend. So naturally he complains all the way up to Bednar (probably for either a recommend or a refund) who then denied his request calling the bishop’s actions “wide counsel”. No refund was mentioned and he didn’t confirm in the talk that the Father got to see his daughter sealed in the temple either.

In his talk he just told a story about when he was a stake president and a member of his stake hadn't paid tithing for a long while, but came and paid his tithing and then wanted to get a temple recommend because his child was shortly going to be married in the temple. Bednar wasn't having none of that crap. He denied the temple recommend and when the guy got upset and said, "I paid my tithing, what else do you want?!" Bednar replied, "Christ doesn't require your tithing, he requires your heart." This guy couldn't be more of an asshat religious extremist if he tried. God bless Mormonism when he's in charge.

—The quotes are paraphrased because I was listening to the Spanish broadcast so I don't know exactly how he phrased it. If anyone was there please let me know if you recall him saying it a different way—

I've seen evidence that GAs sometimes shop and hone their stories before they use them in GC. I'm not sure whether I want this one told or not.

In any case, be on the lookout during next GC if you're listening. You might be able to predict the end of a Bednar story and come off as a prophet.

[wtfluff]

"I paid my tithing, what else do you want?!" Bednar replied, "Christ doesn't require your tithing, he requires your heart."

Well Mr. Bednar. "Christ" might not require tithing, but the LDS Corporation sure does, or have they removed that question from the recommend interview?

[Rob4Hope]

It will never cease to amaze me that the "pro family" LDS church will deny a parent from seeing the wedding of a family member--because of something like tithing.

The idea that the church is pro-family is a farce.

[Palerider]

A man with any integrity would have refused the man's tithing until it was clear to everyone involved that the tithing wasn't going to get the father a temple recommend. It's called "full disclosure" and LDS leadership is renowned for hiding your obligations until after the fact. To wit, the temple endowment.

Once the details of the agreement were made clear, THEN Bednar could have asked the man if he still wanted to pay his tithing. Then the man could have examined his own heart without Bednar making a judgment that he is unqualified and unauthorized (except on the corporation's behalf) to make.

What Bednar has shown all of us is the apparently poor quality of his own hardened heart caused by the bad fruit from the false doctrine of the tree where he worships.

[1smartdodog]

I am starting to conclude if you want to do everything Mormon you have to pay the dues. If you do not accept that you will be denied full benefits. It operates like a corporation so we should not expect more.

It may be wrong and unethical but it is reality

[alas]

Moral of story, do not pay up your tithing thinking this will get you a temple recommend. Deathbed repentance or wedding attendance repentance may be good enough for Jesus, but not the corporation. Better to tell your child that you will use that money to pay for their honeymoon if they decide to marry outside of the temple owned by the money changers.

My mother ran into a stake president like that when I got married in the temple. As the non wage earning spouse, technically she was not required to pay any tithing. But she literally risked the family going hungry to pay up the family's tithing and quit drinking the coffee that the doctor had prescribed for her instead of expensive pills. The stake president did not want changed behavior. He wanted proof of humility by seeing tears. It wasn't enough that she was paying the equivalent in today's dollars of $800 a month for pills when coffee did as good as the medicine without the side effects, and going into debt to pay tithing. No, this a**hat wanted her to prove a change of heart by showing tears of remorse for obeying her doctor. My mother was one who never cried in front of anyone, but this stake president kept needling her until she was reduced to tears, he had to humiliate her for two hours to get her to cry, then he sat back with this triumphant look on his face and gave her the second signature on her recommend.

I think that those of us who are disaffected can change church culture by expressing how anti family, how shameful to charge people to see family married. We need to turn the conversation around from shaming those who cannot get a recommend, to putting the shame onto a church that taxes salvation, taxes weddings, taxes going on missions. Money changers outside of the temple policing who goes in is just as outrageous as money changers in the temple.

[Hagoth]

Moral of story, do not pay up your tithing thinking this will get you a temple recommend.

I think the moral of the story is "give unto us as we would have you give unto us, but don't get any crazy ideas that it's a two-way street."

[nibbler]

Attended. Can confirm. The second story is closer to what I remember.

From what I remember: At the time Bednar was serving as stake president and the "what more do you want?" guy was denied a TR by his bishop. The guy then took his complaints to his SP (Bednar) that only told the man to listen to his BP, his counsel was wise.

Reading between the lines, the "what more do you want" guy was the villain of the story because he was demanding a TR in a quid pro quo way. Another no-no... he challenged authority. It wasn't stated outright, but that's an underpinning. The man wasn't truly repentant (the theme of Bednar's talk) because he was demanding. IIRC, there was no mention of the guy paying all the back tithing. The guy was inactive in the church and only came back long enough to make a tithing payment so he could see a wedding... so lots of red flags for faithful members. Those damned day laborers that only worked a little while, am I right?

I'll preface my criticism of the meeting with a little praise. These days I pay attention to how much Christ comes up as opposed to a church leader. The first few talks quoted church leaders left and right but didn't ever quote Christ. I'll give Bednar this much, he at least talked about Christ, which we struggle to do at church.

The "what more do you want?" guy wasn't the story that upset me. There was another story about a kid that was preparing to serve a mission. He had an unstated sin (read: he watched porn) that he didn't initially disclose. Bednar was his SP and Bednar wouldn't allow the boy to leave on his mission until he deemed he had fully repented. The boy was concerned because the timeout that Bednar put him on would take him past his enter the MTC date. Bednar didn't flinch, made the kid go through the humiliation of explaining to family and friends why he couldn't go on a mission. And the moral of the story? Bednar said that if he didn't learn true repentance then, he wouldn't learn it in the field. If he didn't know how to repent, how could he teach it to investigators, and that entering the field fully repented of that sin would help him realize that he "belonged there."

In fact Bednar went on to say that the missionary got special permission from his MP to call Bednar to gush about his investigators and to thank him for helping him feel like he "belonged there."

It was the belonged there thing that triggered me. I strongly dislike the emphasis we place on perfection and obedience in the church. When I was orthodox I had scrupulosity, I never felt worthy enough. Bednar's comments here feed negatively into people struggling with scrupulosity. All it does is tear them down, make them feel they don't belong in church, they don't belong in heaven, and they don't belong period. It's very damaging.

[Culper Jr.]

Also attended. That was a horrible talk. I felt whatever the opposite is of what the Spirit is supposed to feel like.

[Not Buying It]

Is this a preview of what life in the Church will be like when Elder Bednar becomes president?

It goes without saying that the Dad in the story, who did everything he thought he had to do up to and including a hefty monetary fine to attend his child’s wedding, is the hero of this story. The jerk who denied him out of a capricious need to assert his own authority was the villain, and anybody with any integrity should see the story that way.

I need to go puke now...

[Hagoth]

I'll preface my criticism of the meeting with a little praise. These days I pay attention to how much Christ comes up as opposed to a church leader. The first few talks quoted church leaders left and right but didn't ever quote Christ. I'll give Bednar this much, he at least talked about Christ, which we struggle to do at church.

Except that when you analyze what they're really saying, "Christ" and "God" are often substitutes words that really mean "Church" or "Leaders."

In fact Bednar went on to say that the missionary got special permission from his MP to call Bednar to gush about his investigators and to thank him for helping him feel like he "belonged there."

The true purpose of the story: provide and example of gushing respect and gratitude for leaders. You don't want your apostolic blessing revoked, after all.

[Corsair]

Is this a preview of what life in the Church will be like when Elder Bednar becomes president?

It goes without saying that the Dad in the story, who did everything he thought he had to do up to and including a hefty monetary fine to attend his child’s wedding, is the hero of this story. The jerk who denied him out of a capricious need to assert his own authority was the villain, and anybody with any integrity should see the story that way.

I need to go puke now...

There is the very real chance that this narrative will be repeated in my own life in the next few years. I have made peace with this possibility as well as made plans against it. This might be what a Bednar administration will look like.

[MoPag]

It will never cease to amaze me that the "pro family" LDS church will deny a parent from seeing the wedding of a family member--because of something like tithing.

The idea that the church is pro-family is a farce.

The church is pro-"their idea" of family. So the only families that really count are the ones that meet their ideal. Hetero, cis- gender. TBMs married in the temple, stay at home mom, lots of kids. Everyone is faithful TBM. Those are the families they are talking about when they say they are pro-family.

[oliver_denom]

The "what more do you want?" guy wasn't the story that upset me. There was another story about a kid that was preparing to serve a mission. He had an unstated sin (read: he watched porn) that he didn't initially disclose. Bednar was his SP and Bednar wouldn't allow the boy to leave on his mission until he deemed he had fully repented. The boy was concerned because the timeout that Bednar put him on would take him past his enter the MTC date. Bednar didn't flinch, made the kid go through the humiliation of explaining to family and friends why he couldn't go on a mission. And the moral of the story? Bednar said that if he didn't learn true repentance then, he wouldn't learn it in the field. If he didn't know how to repent, how could he teach it to investigators, and that entering the field fully repented of that sin would help him realize that he "belonged there."

In fact Bednar went on to say that the missionary got special permission from his MP to call Bednar to gush about his investigators and to thank him for helping him feel like he "belonged there."

It was the belonged there thing that triggered me. I strongly dislike the emphasis we place on perfection and obedience in the church. When I was orthodox I had scrupulosity, I never felt worthy enough. Bednar's comments here feed negatively into people struggling with scrupulosity. All it does is tear them down, make them feel they don't belong in church, they don't belong in heaven, and they don't belong period. It's very damaging.

These are terrible stories if you're looking at it from the perspective of winning a person's heart through love and mercy, but they're wonderful if you're looking for examples of how shame and humiliation can control and manipulate.

I know that they look at these things as breaking a person's pride, but that's not what's happening. What they're doing is breaking a person's spirit. Beating a human being into submission is not a moral victory. In fact, it says more about the so called "gospel" that justifies that type of behavior than it does about the person who is being broken.

By their fruits ye shall know them. A change of heart is personal, spiritual, and uplifting. The fruits of Mr. Bednar's stories are horrific tails of humiliation and insults. He may have gotten what he wanted, but that's no small feat when you have all the power and the people you're abusing have none. So *slow clap* congratulations Mr. Bednar, you've done it. Not only did you defeat a father trying to see his child get married, and score a "win" over a teenager trying to serve God, but you've spread your bile to all the stake presidents and bishops who will now follow your example.

Having been on the receiving end of these satanic doctrines, I hope Mr. Bednar sees the error of his ways before he takes over the reigns of the church.

[Fifi de la Vergne]

I know that they look at these things as breaking a person's pride, but that's not what's happening. What they're doing is breaking a person's spirit. Beating a human being into submission is not a moral victory. In fact, it says more about the so called "gospel" that justifies that type of behavior than it does about the person who is being broken.

By their fruits ye shall know them. A change of heart is personal, spiritual, and uplifting. The fruits of Mr. Bednar's stories are horrific tails of humiliation and insults. He may have gotten what he wanted, but that's no small feat when you have all the power and the people you're abusing have none. So *slow clap* congratulations Mr. Bednar, you've done it. Not only did you defeat a father trying to see his child get married, and score a "win" over a teenager trying to serve God, but you've spread your bile to all the stake presidents and bishops who will now follow your example.

Having been on the receiving end of these satanic doctrines, I hope Mr. Bednar sees the error of his ways before he takes over the reigns of the church.

You articulated this really well. These stories are vile. Reading them threatens to undo my efforts at indifference to all things LDS.

[nibbler]

So you know where I'm coming from before I start playing devil's advocate for Bednar.

I developed scrupulosity during my mission. Maybe it was the culture's obsession with obedience and belief in the prosperity gospel, maybe that's the fruit of really paying attention and believing at church... or maybe my personality was predispositioned to end up there. Regardless, I spent an unhealthy amount of time concerned about whether god accepted me. I needed some sign from above just to confirm that god wasn't angry at me for not being good enough on my mission... and I was a straight arrow missionary.

I get the sense that Bednar leans towards the justice end of the justice mercy scale. To him god must be "fair" above all else. It wouldn't be fair to all the people that never went inactive and consistently paid their tithing if the dad in the story swooped in in the 11th hour, cut a check, and got to enjoy the blessing... of not being deprived of something most people take for granted because that's just normal life. While I'm there, isn't that a real kick to the groin? We're not talking about the more traditional blessing where you receive something. No, for this blessing to work we've first got to take away dad's ability to attend the wedding, then if he's good we'll give it back. Disgusting. I'm straying.

oliver_denom, I thought about raising your points at church next Sunday, because I know everyone is going to be talking about how great it was to listen to Bednar and how great his message was. I thought forward and came up with what I'd expect to hear. Devil's advocate time.

Dad and tithing. He wasn't truly repentant because he wasn't humble. He believed he could command god, when really it's the other way around. The man showed no lasting change, as soon as the wedding was over he'd go right back to not paying tithing and being inactive. That's not repentance.

Kid and mission. The kid was more concerned about his standing with his peers than his standing with god. If he went on a mission he'd forever question whether he was worthy enough to be there (as an aside to being the apologist, I want to say... and what about people like me that hear a talk like this and question their self worth where they never questioned it before, what about the people that start obsessing with perfection - this talk does the opposite of what is intended). It was a lesson that eventually gave the kid confidence.

Now, I don't like the kid and the mission story because that kid was me. Someone that was always worried about whether god loved/forgave me. Ironically, Bednar's talk would have reinforced those worries rather than calmed them because we all sin. We all repeat sins. We're never perfect but the lesson seems to be to destroy our self esteem in the attempt.

I considered discussing some of this at church to challenge what's sure to be considered one of the best conferences ever. But I don't think there's any discussion to be had. If I started out with, "I liked the talk but..." as soon as I say the word but the defenses go up, ears close, and people start formulating their attack. I doubt it's worth having a conversation with anyone at church about the potential harm Bednar's message can cause.

[Corsair]

Dad and tithing. He wasn't truly repentant because he wasn't humble. He believed he could command god, when really it's the other way around. The man showed no lasting change, as soon as the wedding was over he'd go right back to not paying tithing and being inactive. That's not repentance.

Kid and mission. The kid was more concerned about his standing with his peers than his standing with god.

Knowing that this is the likely policy (i.e., "doctrine") going forward, I will continue my longstanding science experiment by "giving the answers they want" to maintain my temple recommend. This is simply maintaining social standing in my current ward. I don't feel like I have to prove anything to them or to God.

I considered discussing some of this at church to challenge what's sure to be considered one of the best conferences ever. But I don't think there's any discussion to be had. If I started out with, "I liked the talk but..." as soon as I say the word but the defenses go up, ears close, and people start formulating their attack. I doubt it's worth having a conversation with anyone at church about the potential harm Bednar's message can cause.

Nobody who is a believer cares about that. A common refrain on the "angrier" apostate websites is that once you truly leave the LDS church, no one really wants to know the details of why you left. Don't rely on that kind of emotional validation for your well being.

[oliver_denom]

I considered discussing some of this at church to challenge what's sure to be considered one of the best conferences ever. But I don't think there's any discussion to be had. If I started out with, "I liked the talk but..." as soon as I say the word but the defenses go up, ears close, and people start formulating their attack. I doubt it's worth having a conversation with anyone at church about the potential harm Bednar's message can cause.

I think you're right about not being able to discuss this in church, because the rules say that the apostle is always correct. Any suggestion that this isn't the case would be perceived as an attack.

The fact of the matter is that the ideology of Mr. Bednar is the one which currently controls the church. It's the belief system in charge and the one which won the battle over what's right and what's wrong. The system itself is organized so that change can only occur from the top down, therefore even the smallest suggestion which flows from the bottom up is dealt with in the harshest way.

The ideology is absolutist and authoritarian. Given this, the system itself only allows for two acceptable actions: obedience or silence. We can choose other paths, but they will not be accepted by the organization. If we obey, then it's expected that we'll do so completely. If not, then they will harass us until we conform. If we remain silent in disobedience, then they will harass us and use us as examples. We become opportunities to reinforce the doctrine, so that we serve the church either way we choose.

That's the bad news. This ideology is the one which holds all the cards. The good news is that fewer and fewer people are playing along. That makes life a lot easier for us silent dissenters. In some wards, there may even exist an environment where dissenters can speak, but those aren't the majority. I always hold out hope, but I suspect the McCarthyites will hold onto power for at least another thirty to forty years. Whether the membership decides to follow is yet to be seen. So far, most seem more willing to leave than remain and be quiet.

[nibbler]

I'm more concerned with protecting my kids from future local leaders that get ideas from those sorts of talks. I suppose the answer there is to talk with my kids, not the potential leaders. Even then it comes down to chance. Which person will your family place more stock in.

[deacon blues]

I’m reminded of the Pharisee and Publican parable when I hear these kind of stories. One thing the LDS church often leaves out of the gospel, is the fact that we are all sinners, or for those with agnostic view, we are all human. Sadly, LDS temple practices emphasize that there are the righteous temple worthy, and then there is everybody else. It’s a pathway to pride.