Elder Bednar's latest tithing story

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Rob4Hope
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Re: Elder Bednar's latest tithing story

Post by Rob4Hope » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:15 pm

MoPag wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:52 pm
Rob4Hope wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:11 pm
It will never cease to amaze me that the "pro family" LDS church will deny a parent from seeing the wedding of a family member--because of something like tithing.

The idea that the church is pro-family is a farce.
The church is pro-"their idea" of family. So the only families that really count are the ones that meet their ideal. Hetero, cis- gender. TBMs married in the temple, stay at home mom, lots of kids. Everyone is faithful TBM. Those are the families they are talking about when they say they are pro-family.
I think they have a LOT of nerve and are rather disingenuous about the whole pro-family facade they put up. I am reminded of the SWK days when the "cure" for same-sex-attraction was for men to "force themselves" to get married. Of course, there was little or no counsel for gay women. But that didn't matter. After all, the "family" (as envisioned by the LDS church) was the cure for this ailment, and women don't count that much anyway....right?

We all know that particular cure counsel (from the PROPHET) didn't work. So, let's just act like it was never given; let's not retract it, disavow it; lets just simply ignore it. That way they have plausible deniability.

Reuben
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Re: Elder Bednar's latest tithing story

Post by Reuben » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:09 am

nibbler wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:23 pm
Dad and tithing. He wasn't truly repentant because he wasn't humble. He believed he could command god, when really it's the other way around. The man showed no lasting change, as soon as the wedding was over he'd go right back to not paying tithing and being inactive. That's not repentance.

Kid and mission. The kid was more concerned about his standing with his peers than his standing with god. If he went on a mission he'd forever question whether he was worthy enough to be there (as an aside to being the apologist, I want to say... and what about people like me that hear a talk like this and question their self worth where they never questioned it before, what about the people that start obsessing with perfection - this talk does the opposite of what is intended). It was a lesson that eventually gave the kid confidence.
Ah, yes. The confidence that comes from having met the minimum requirements for other people to call you righteous. Or maybe the ultimate confidence that comes from living life perfectly? After all, the closer you get to perfection, the more confidently you can approach God.

Reading your defenses, I think I've worked out why I didn't like these stories, and maybe why it's so hard to convince believers that they're damaging. You mentioned God twice: standing with God, and commanding God. I don't believe there was a god directing or even influencing those priesthood leaders. Believers almost always do. To me, the stories are about men manipulating people. To believers, they're about God guiding people.

I can see that the stories will give license for some priesthood leaders to act like a**holes to try to save people's souls. They'll give most priesthood leaders license to use milder tactics. They'll strengthen the beliefs most active members have in priesthood leaders' access to divine knowledge, which causes them to submit to being controlled via shame. I can predict these results, but most active members can't.

This difference in understanding has to be addressed before believers will even consider that Elder Bednar is teaching wrong and damaging doctrine. Maybe start with the parable of the wheat and tares? I dunno.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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moksha
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Re: Elder Bednar's latest tithing story

Post by moksha » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:51 am

Reuben wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:09 pm
The ex-Mormon subreddit has two independent posts retelling a story that Elder Bednar told in a Southeast regional conference talk today.
A father who had not paid his tithing in some time and had let his temple recommend lapse had a daughter who was going to get sealed in the temple. So he decided to speak to the bishop about it. This guy pays his backlog of tithing as instructed and is then denied his temple recommend. So naturally, he complains all the way up to Bednar (probably for either a recommend or a refund) who then denied his request calling the bishop’s actions “wise counsel”. No refund was mentioned and he didn’t confirm in the talk that the Father got to see his daughter sealed in the temple either.
Not sure what legal terms fit this story. It is sort of like extortion because of requiring the father to pay a fee to see his own daughter's wedding and sort of like fraud because it was money obtained under false pretenses. There was never any intent for the bishop to complete his end of the contract. The bishop was pulling a fast one. Too bad Elder Bednar chose to be complicit in the fraud. But he need not worry, there is no way the Utah courts would ever charge the bishop or the Elder Bednar.

That said, it is hard for me to understand the family dynamics of the daughter letting this happen. Why stand idly by and let some institution defraud her father? Seems like the decent thing to do in these situations is have a real wedding right before or immediately after this sealing where loved ones can all attend.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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slavereeno
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Re: Elder Bednar's latest tithing story

Post by slavereeno » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:09 am

When in the stake presidency, if we got a non-tithe payer in for a temple recommend, the policy was for them to meet with the stake president. His M.O. was that they needed to "Show a pattern of tithe paying" before they were considered repentant. It was a minimum of 3 months but could be as long as 6. So for those wishing to death-bed this, you will need to plan on paying more than one month.

At the time this made me wonder... Is there any kind of audit that would ever happen if you pay less than 10% ? For example lets say I decide to pay 4% and just always assert I paid a "full" tithe. If the BP sees me buy a boat and a new car does he have any recourse for claiming I am not paying enough? They don't ask you to provide a tax return or anything to my knowledge. So why not take one months Tithing and pay it over the next 3-6 months and say I am a full tithe payer. They also teach its between you and the Lord, so who is to say how much your whittle down your "net" to anyway? Nobody checks to see if I deduct my mortgage and car payment before calculating the "net" I pay to tithing, right?

I get this is an institutional problem that I am not really addressing, just positing ugly hacks on the system...

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Re: Elder Bednar's latest tithing story

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:33 am

slavereeno wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:09 am
When in the stake presidency, if we got a non-tithe payer in for a temple recommend, the policy was for them to meet with the stake president. His M.O. was that they needed to "Show a pattern of tithe paying" before they were considered repentant. It was a minimum of 3 months but could be as long as 6. So for those wishing to death-bed this, you will need to plan on paying more than one month.

At the time this made me wonder... Is there any kind of audit that would ever happen if you pay less than 10% ? For example lets say I decide to pay 4% and just always assert I paid a "full" tithe. If the BP sees me buy a boat and a new car does he have any recourse for claiming I am not paying enough? They don't ask you to provide a tax return or anything to my knowledge. So why not take one months Tithing and pay it over the next 3-6 months and say I am a full tithe payer. They also teach its between you and the Lord, so who is to say how much your whittle down your "net" to anyway? Nobody checks to see if I deduct my mortgage and car payment before calculating the "net" I pay to tithing, right?

I get this is an institutional problem that I am not really addressing, just positing ugly hacks on the system...
The answer to the audit question is a big no based on what the handbook says about tithing being between the Lord and the Individual. They would also have to define it as gross in order to make any auditing work accurately and that 1970 statement just doesn't define that.

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nibbler
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Re: Elder Bednar's latest tithing story

Post by nibbler » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:54 am

Image

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Elder Bednar's latest tithing story

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:08 am

Both of these stories remind me of one of the Mormon stories I really liked, the one with Christine Jeppsen Clark, who was the daughter of GA Malcolm Jeppsen, an old Brigham City family friend of Boyd Packer. She tells the story of when a missionary wanted out of the mission to get married, and Malcolm punished the kid by not allowing him to get married in the temple, because he bagged his mission. In Jeppsen's mind, he represented the Lord, and that's how the Lord would deal with the kid. By punishing him. I'll let the obvious Atonement/mercy blowoff go uncommented upon, but that's the mindset, isn't it?

And knowing that "I am Scripture" Bednar is the reincarnated spirit of BKP, these kinds of statements are EXACTLY what I would expect him to make; he truly believes that he is the Lord in proxy, and his word would match the man upstairs. Only those who can see the power trip for what it is will call him on this, but true blue believers will see "wisdom" in dealing with people this way. That they need to SHOW true repentance, not just feel it. Bunch of Pharisees, the lot of them. That, I'm convinced, will continue to drive young critical thinkers away, and the only ones left will be the hardline, older conservative, justice over mercy crowd. Good luck to them.
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Thoughtful
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Re: Elder Bednar's latest tithing story

Post by Thoughtful » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:57 pm

The very latest tithing story from today's media event is that Nelson announced that not only was he a brilliant wealthy surgeon, but that
1-general authorities do not pay tithing and
2-general authorities are paid via tithing funds.

But people who can't afford to pay rent or eat should pay tithing FIRST.

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wtfluff
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Re: Elder Bednar's latest tithing story

Post by wtfluff » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:32 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:57 pm
The very latest tithing story from today's media event is that Nelson announced that not only was he a brilliant wealthy surgeon, but that
1-general authorities do not pay tithing and
2-general authorities are paid via tithing funds.

But people who can't afford to pay rent or eat should pay tithing FIRST.
Yeah, I noticed that too, and wondered if he realized what he was actually saying.

Though if called out on it, I'm sure there would be some fine dancing around, redirection and denial.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

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moksha
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Re: Elder Bednar's latest tithing story

Post by moksha » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:46 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:57 pm
The very latest tithing story from today's media event is that Nelson announced that not only was he a brilliant wealthy surgeon, but that

1-general authorities do not pay tithing and
2-general authorities are paid via tithing funds.

But people who can't afford to pay rent or eat should pay tithing FIRST.
This is a rather bold admission by President Nelson, although that same information has been discussed before on this board. By the Church President saying it, however, it will change the position of Church apologists from one of outright denial to a position of declaring it to be the will of God.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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deacon blues
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Re: Elder Bednar's latest tithing story

Post by deacon blues » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:05 am

The temple recommend interview is an example of legalism. In a legalistic situation it seems the least a judge should do is follow the rules. If a person answers the questions correctly they they get the recommend. Then it is supposedly on the person's shoulders. But still, the phariseism creeps in. :(
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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slavereeno
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Re: Elder Bednar's latest tithing story

Post by slavereeno » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:32 am

wtfluff wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:32 pm
Yeah, I noticed that too, and wondered if he realized what he was actually saying.

Though if called out on it, I'm sure there would be some fine dancing around, redirection and denial.
The TBMs in my life could give a flying rats anus what they say. Not that I am bitter or anything... but I feel like most of them are so mind effed that if he got up there and said "I buy orphan babies from the Ukraine and dine on them on Thursdays." It would strengthen their testimonies.

Reuben
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Re: Elder Bednar's latest tithing story

Post by Reuben » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:27 pm

slavereeno wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:32 am
wtfluff wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:32 pm
Yeah, I noticed that too, and wondered if he realized what he was actually saying.

Though if called out on it, I'm sure there would be some fine dancing around, redirection and denial.
The TBMs in my life could give a flying rats anus what they say. Not that I am bitter or anything... but I feel like most of them are so mind effed that if he got up there and said "I buy orphan babies from the Ukraine and dine on them on Thursdays." It would strengthen their testimonies.
What he obviously means is that he uses the babies as placemats. What a blessing for those babies to be in the presence of an apostle at such an early age!
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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nibbler
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Re: Elder Bednar's latest tithing story

Post by nibbler » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:50 am

Reuben wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:27 pm
What he obviously means is that he uses the babies as placemats. What a blessing for those babies to be in the presence of an apostle at such an early age!
Doormats. "At the feet of an apostle."
We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.
– Anais Nin

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