The JST was done using a biblical commentary

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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The JST was done using a biblical commentary

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:50 pm

Hot off the presses from Bill Reel. Apparently some academics at BYU have discovered the bible commentary heavily used by Smith for the JST.

http://jur.byu.edu/?p=21296
Our research has revealed that the number of direct parallels between Smith’s translation and Adam Clarke’s biblical commentary are simply too numerous and explicit to posit happenstance or coincidental overlap. The parallels between the two texts number into the hundreds, a number that is well beyond the limits of this paper to discuss.

Reuben
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Re: The JST was done using a biblical commentary

Post by Reuben » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:13 pm

Fascinating!

I imagine than the standard apologetic explanation will be that Joseph needed a starting point. It's a lot easier to get inspiration about an existing suggested change or change based on commentary than to come up with them all yourself. Kind of like Freemasonry and the temple.
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Re: The JST was done using a biblical commentary

Post by RubinHighlander » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:25 pm

Hmmmm....more JS inspiration via plagiarization. No surprise there.
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Hagoth
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Re: The JST was done using a biblical commentary

Post by Hagoth » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:22 pm

“The parallels between the two texts number into the hundreds”
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Palerider
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Re: The JST was done using a biblical commentary

Post by Palerider » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:49 pm

I'm sure Clarke was prepared and inspired by the Lord knowing that someday a greater would come to fully open the scriptures to our understanding. This is how the Lord prepares the way for the small things of the world to do miraculous things.

And there you go! Another miracle proving that the church is true! As a matter of fact....over a hundred miracles if you think about it.
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2bizE
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Re: The JST was done using a biblical commentary

Post by 2bizE » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:06 am

Whoa! This needs to be in the CES letter.
So, these researchers are grappling with the word “translation” and what JS means by this. You can see the wheels of apostacy turning...
I wonder if these guys have now gone through a faith crisis.
~2bizE

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: The JST was done using a biblical commentary

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:30 am

2bizE wrote:Whoa! This needs to be in the CES letter.
So, these researchers are grappling with the word “translation” and what JS means by this. You can see the wheels of apostacy turning...
I wonder if these guys have now gone through a faith crisis.
I still laugh at Brother Jake's BOA video where he talks about "translation" vs "TRANSLATION!". :)

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Red Ryder
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Re: The JST was done using a biblical commentary

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:01 am

The Johnson's pinged on this back in 2011 and talk about it here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... e_clarkes/

It's an interesting timeline to watch as 2 BYU researchers come across it and publish in March 2017 followed by Bill Reel and the exmo crowd nearly 9 months later.
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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: The JST was done using a biblical commentary

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:21 am

Red Ryder wrote:The Johnson's pinged on this back in 2011 and talk about it here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... e_clarkes/

It's an interesting timeline to watch as 2 BYU researchers come across it and publish in March 2017 followed by Bill Reel and the exmo crowd nearly 9 months later.
Not much new under the sun it seems.

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notforprophet
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Re: The JST was done using a biblical commentary

Post by notforprophet » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:14 pm

2bizE wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:06 am
Whoa! This needs to be in the CES letter.
So, these researchers are grappling with the word “translation” and what JS means by this. You can see the wheels of apostacy turning...
I wonder if these guys have now gone through a faith crisis.
I really hope so. I know not to get my hopes up about this causing a wave of members leaving the church, but I hope that a few people leave over it, and certainly at least the researchers coming across it on their own. The cognitive dissonance required otherwise...
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Palerider
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Re: The JST was done using a biblical commentary

Post by Palerider » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:37 pm

This really does show, in an indisputable way, that Joseph was more than willing to plagiarize and then claim not only the writing as his own but that it was inspired by God. Only an idiot would refuse to see the implications for the BofM and the BofA.
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Re: The JST was done using a biblical commentary

Post by wtfluff » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:53 pm

Palerider wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:37 pm
This really does show, in an indisputable way, that Joseph was more than willing to plagiarize and then claim not only the writing as his own but that it was inspired by God. Only an idiot would refuse to see the implications for the BofM and the BofA.
And the "endowment".
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2bizE
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Re: The JST was done using a biblical commentary

Post by 2bizE » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:07 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:30 am
2bizE wrote:Whoa! This needs to be in the CES letter.
So, these researchers are grappling with the word “translation” and what JS means by this. You can see the wheels of apostacy turning...
I wonder if these guys have now gone through a faith crisis.
I still laugh at Brother Jake's BOA video where he talks about "translation" vs "TRANSLATION!". :)
Yes, that video is hilarious
~2bizE

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Re: The JST was done using a biblical commentary

Post by Reuben » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:22 pm

Brother Jake on translation vs "translation":

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t_iuV2vIXlI

Two things I love about Brother Jake: he's very thorough, and he helps you laugh instead of grind your teeth into powder.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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Deepthinker
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Re: The JST was done using a biblical commentary

Post by Deepthinker » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:23 pm

Wow! Published by BYU even!

Here is the quote from that link that really bothers me:
Direct borrowing from this source has not previously been connected to Smith’s translation efforts, and the fundamental question of what Smith meant by the term “translation” with respect to his efforts to rework the biblical text can now be reconsidered in light of this new evidence.1
In other words, the conclusion drawn from this finding is not that Smith was a fraud, but that he just had a different definition of "translation" that we should now consider. Stretching the meaning of words until they have no meaning.

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Red Ryder
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Re: The JST was done using a biblical commentary

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:05 pm

Right, let's expand the definition of translation!

I'm going to borrow one I saw from reddit to use on my wife:

Wife: Red, did you take out the trash?
Red: Well... If you expand the definition of taking out the trash to mean sitting on the couch and watching TV, then yes!
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Rob4Hope
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Re: The JST was done using a biblical commentary

Post by Rob4Hope » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:52 pm

RubinHighlander wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:25 pm
Hmmmm....more JS inspiration via plagiarization. No surprise there.
DUDE! You changed your avatar!.....GAWD..its creepy now!

LOL

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Emower
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Re: The JST was done using a biblical commentary

Post by Emower » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:21 pm

Reuben wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:22 pm
Brother Jake on translation vs "translation":

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t_iuV2vIXlI

Two things I love about Brother Jake: he's very thorough, and he helps you laugh instead of grind your teeth into powder.
I have never seen brother jake. That was funny!

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GoodBoy
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Re: The JST was done using a biblical commentary

Post by GoodBoy » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:48 pm

One of the larger questions raised by this study is whether this new information would alter the reception of Smith’s translation as a canonical or nearly canonical text. With some of the changes that Smith introduced into the text of the Bible resulting from academic sources, albeit modified and altered, the question arises as to whether the changes that arose via Clarke would have the same claim to canonicity that the longer revelatory insertions might have.
This reminds me of how the current Q15 work. They use their own thoughts as "inspiration" but are heavily influenced by academics and especially by lawyers.
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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: The JST was done using a biblical commentary

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:32 am

Searching more about this issue brought me to this mormondialogue forum thread that contains about every apologetic justification possible as well as a nice gem at the end of the thread from Streeter's site about the tale of the twice translated scripture which includes a hilarious oversight where a JS III RLDS modification gets inserted by mistake into the LDS footnotes.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/700 ... rch-shows/

https://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/tw ... scripture/
That’s right. There is new scripture in the official published version of the LDS scriptures which came from the hand of a man who did not have the Priesthood, did not have the keys or gift of translating and who could only be considered a pretender to the rights and power which Joseph Smith held. The question is not “how could this man have been given the power to reveal scripture?” but rather “how could the authorized agent of the church who selected passages for inclusion in LDS scripture footnotes (read Bruce R. McConkie) not be inspired enough to tell the difference between the handwriting of the Prophet and that of of his uninspired son or sensitive enough to distinguish legitimate revealed scripture from illegitimate scripture?”

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