How and When did Church take over your "self"

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Linked
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How and When did Church take over your "self"

Post by Linked » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:35 pm

After reading some journals I felt like my tipping point in losing my "self" to the church was midway through my mission. My journal writings had "me" in them up to that point, but after that it seemed to just be what I thought I should write based on my belief in the church. Up to that point I was a believer and did all the things mormons do like read scriptures, daily prayer, seminary, 100% church attendance, etc; but I was still thinking for myself and writing for myself.

Perhaps I just lost my writing voice to the church at that point, in the continuing march toward conformity to the church. We gave so much and were always asked for more.

Now to see my siblings continuing to change toward more conformity is heartbreaking. These are good, kind, fun people who are striving to shove themselves into whatever box the church leadership tells them. My sister cut out sleep overs immediately upon request. My snarky brother is trying to be less snarky. My nice brother is trying to be less nice. I guess that could just be who they want to become and I am overly sensitive to the church having some part in it.

Well, I got my voice back.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: How and When did Church take over your "self"

Post by Palerider » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:19 pm

I felt like I made a fairly understandable mistake of equating the church with Christ because I happened to come to Christ while being a member of the church. Age 19.

And the church does a pretty good job of convincing people that's true. Church = Christ.

And since it was my desire to follow Christ, I permitted those who claimed to be His representatives unfettered access to all aspects of my psyche and development. Thinking that by following their counsel I was pleasing God.
This is quite different from the Biblical puting off of the old man of sin and becoming a new creation in Christ. Instead it is a denial of everything that is ourselves and attempting to remake ourselves through a legalist system that varies with the personality of the leader in charge.

Trying to perfectly follow the "unwritten order" of things is in reality a way of saying "copy and submit to whomever is in charge at the moment." This is nothing more than worshipping the arm of flesh.

Remaking one's self in the image of varying mortal men who come only to then pass away, will make you somewhat schizoid. It's a game that can be played but never won.

One can never trust one's own judgment because it's impossible to know what President Joe would be thinking in the current circumstances. When we should be relying on our own good judgment and allowing the Spirit of God to aid us when necessary, we're trying to remember what some leader said in his last conference talk....

It reminds me of how the ancient Polynesians navigated the Pacific Ocean. In this life we're in the middle of an ocean. We need more than a map. Mormonism goes on about giving you a map to reach your destination but in the middle of the ocean maps will do you no good without a sextant and compass. So how did Polynesians navigate? They learned to read the waves and the stars.

Mormons have been given maps that are insufficient. They need to stop looking at them and learn to read the stars and the waves.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Re: How and When did Church take over your "self"

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:56 pm

Probably when I was standing in that flappy shield stepping into the garments for the first time. Everything after that was fulfilling church responsibilities.

Mission
Marriage
Children

You're so busy running on the church hamster wheel living the lifestyle then one day you wake up questioning why you're so miserable. Then a faith crisis develops and you can't step out of the underwear without making your family think you're deceived by satan.

Nobody ever gets their voice back in this nightmare. There will always be that nagging mormon voice in the back of your head!
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

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Re: How and When did Church take over your "self"

Post by wtfluff » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:29 pm

LDS-Inc. took over my "self" the instant I was conceived.

There was a nice long checklist that planned out much of my life even before conception happened.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Re: How and When did Church take over your "self"

Post by slavereeno » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:27 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:29 pm
LDS-Inc. took over my "self" the instant I was conceived.
Exactly.

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Re: How and When did Church take over your "self"

Post by moksha » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:04 pm

When I returned to the Church I did so as a progressive Christian. You might say I looked at the Church's truths and added some to my own. The end result is that I have sturdy shelves made out of hardwood with metal bracketing and sensors that will jettison outdated editions when necessary. If they were a reed in the wind they would be capable of bending.

The best part is that these metaphorical shelves are incredibly affordable. Ultimately these shelves will end like the tale of the one-hoss shay. Logic is logic. That's all I'll say.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Re: How and When did Church take over your "self"

Post by Rob4Hope » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:03 am

slavereeno wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:27 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:29 pm
LDS-Inc. took over my "self" the instant I was conceived.
Exactly.
For the first 43 years of my life, I have no memory of self--I ONLY existed from the perspective of the church. It was who I was.

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Re: How and When did Church take over your "self"

Post by BriansThoughtMirror » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:23 am

Rob4Hope wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:03 am
For the first 43 years of my life, I have no memory of self--I ONLY existed from the perspective of the church. It was who I was.
Ouch... That's awful, Rob. There are chunks of my life that are fuzzily hazed over with Mormony-ness (and guilt, shame, fear, and self loathing) where it seems like other people had memorable life experiences, but nothing like what you are saying. I'm sorry...
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Re: How and When did Church take over your "self"

Post by 2bizE » Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:52 pm

As a kid having to go back to sacrament meeting on sundays at 6 pm. Missing out on wonderful world of Disney every week.
~2bizE

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Re: How and When did Church take over your "self"

Post by Rob4Hope » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:51 am

BriansThoughtMirror wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:23 am
Rob4Hope wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:03 am
For the first 43 years of my life, I have no memory of self--I ONLY existed from the perspective of the church. It was who I was.
Ouch... That's awful, Rob. There are chunks of my life that are fuzzily hazed over with Mormony-ness (and guilt, shame, fear, and self loathing) where it seems like other people had memorable life experiences, but nothing like what you are saying. I'm sorry...
LOL. I'm resilient,...thank GAWD!

But, if you ever hear me venting some pretty deep anger, now you know why. I feel like a big chunk of my life was stolen. Fortunately, there were some good times in there--even inside the Morgdom Church--and I feel gratitude for those.

I was a TBM, to the extreme. Well read, very devout, and I even got a few stars on my forhead. Which is why reading history and finding out about stuff was like taking a bullet.

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Re: How and When did Church take over your "self"

Post by Ghost » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:14 am

I was talking to someone the other day about the word "authenticity." This word has long bothered me a little for reasons I won't go into here, but that conversation got me thinking about my identity and how much of it is inextricably tied to Mormonism. Although I've (very slowly but pretty dramatically) changed my thinking and how I approach my religious tradition, I don't think that I have a "self" that is entirely separate from that influence.

In other words, much of my true, authentic self (if there is such a thing) has been "built" by Mormonism. I don't see that as regrettable, though. If I think vaguely about what things might have been like without those those experiences, I realize that the product of a different upbringing would not really be me but someone else. If that makes any sense.

But existential thoughts aside, I can relate to a lot of what has been said in this thread. I don't miss feeling intense guilt over inconsequential things, for example. (I might miss certainty a little, though.)

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Re: How and When did Church take over your "self"

Post by Rob4Hope » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:48 pm

Ghost wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:14 am
I was talking to someone the other day about the word "authenticity." This word has long bothered me a little for reasons I won't go into here, but that conversation got me thinking about my identity and how much of it is inextricably tied to Mormonism. Although I've (very slowly but pretty dramatically) changed my thinking and how I approach my religious tradition, I don't think that I have a "self" that is entirely separate from that influence.
I've always felt like the church sets up dichotomies that control choice. In this case, you have "Righteous" vs. "Wicked". There is no real 3rd term. The "natural man is an enemy to God..." and you either choose righteous or wicked.

But you have brought up the 3rd possibility which the church rejects: namely, "authentic". Is there no room for someone to be authentic and still be righteous in the LDS church? If you begin to investigate and even experiment with this idea, you immediately run into the "pleasure problem" (the LDS church adopts some of the 'mortify the flesh' ideals from early New England ideas), as well as the "power problem" (thinking for yourself and trying to find your best authentic self is ALWAYS prescribed by deferring to the authorities over you: ie, bishop, SP, and Q15 above all). The church, IMHO, doesn't want free thinkers, and it certainly doesn't want someone who is "authentic".

This idea permeates throughout LDS teachings and culture. If you are gay, for example, that can't be right--"God would never allow someone to be born that way...(BKP)"; if you are a historian, for example--"some things that are true are not very useful...(BKP)";..."frankly, some mistakes have been made...(DFU, and being removed from the FP!)"...etc. These are just some of the obvious ones. The real damage, at least for me, happened down in the cultural level.

I learned something from the church: being a bully is OK. In fact, if you do it in the name of God, you are justified. Its called "righteous indignation",...and its always justified when moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

What a load of rot!

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Re: How and When did Church take over your "self"

Post by Palerider » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:37 pm

I'm beginning to think that this discussion is more about the church's mistaking "uniformity" for "unity" in the Spirit.

I do think there is a place for unity in the saving doctrines of the Gospel. But like the Pharisees of old, they (leadership) have replaced spiritual unity with a web of laws and pseudo-ordinances that have a "form of godliness" but are in reality just the commandments of men. Thus they attempt to form all men in their own image and to create women after their own ideal of how women should behave.

Step outside of those parameters and you start to make leadership feel "uncomfortable". And you are perceived as a threat....a problem. A disease that has to be diagnosed, healed or cut out.

And thus, the "self" which could be entirely acceptable to the true God, is sacrificed on the alter of "uniformity" to the false gods of legalism and flesh worship.

Worshipping the flesh is not limited to sexual sin but is equally applied to the adoration of mortal men who have usurped what should be only God's place in our lives.
Last edited by Palerider on Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

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Re: How and When did Church take over your "self"

Post by Rob4Hope » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:48 pm

Palerider wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:37 pm
And thus, the "self" which could be entirely acceptable to the true God, is sacrificed on the alter of "uniformity" to the false gods of legalism and flesh worship.
I think you said this very well.

As I read your post Palerider, the first thing that came to my mind was D&C 89 and the "mild drink" area. From what I've read and heard via pod-casts, mild-drinks made with grain include beer. Back in the day, beer wasn't considered "off the program" (OTP). Along comes this extreme temperance movement, "commandments of men" (as you put it), and the idea of uniformity that becomes prescribed by a host of rules, and pretty soon people had to be told why "hot drinks" were bad. I've even have read something from JD where one of the early leaders said "hot soup" was bad.

The idea of "teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves" is total crap. The church hasn't done that for years!

PS. If you are gunna bless or pass the sacrament, you had BETTER have on a white shirt and tie. To do otherwise is grounds to have your calling curtailed to a degree until you learn humility and confirm.

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Re: How and When did Church take over your "self"

Post by LSOF » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:58 pm

When my great-great-great-grandparents fell for a con.
"I appreciate your flesh needs to martyr me." Parture

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Re: How and When did Church take over your "self"

Post by wtfluff » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:30 pm

LSOF wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:58 pm
When my great-great-great-grandparents fell for a con.
This ^ works for me too...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

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Re: How and When did Church take over your "self"

Post by NOMinally Mormon » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:30 pm

The church took over my "self" by teaching me that I could never be good enough. As a teen, I would think about my future, but then remember that I had to have a lot of kids if I wanted to be good enough. It was a depressing thought. Later in life whenever I accomplished something I would have a niggling thought that I should be prioritizing church stuff instead. It's been a few years now since I've been active, and I think I've finally gotten rid of the negative voice in my head.

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Re: How and When did Church take over your "self"

Post by moksha » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:01 pm

How and When did Church take over your "self"
I was just standing around with some friends one night outside the 7-Eleven when we saw a bright light in the sky and heard a pinging sound. Within ten seconds there was a shape in the sky. A few seconds more and we recognized it as some spacecraft. It finally landed as we stood all amazed.

A panel opened and a ramp descended. Down it walked two people. Well, sort of people since they appeared to be part human and part machine. They approached till they were right in front of us. They had on black nametags with some strange writing. We understood them when they said, "We are the Morg. We shall add you to the collective". The next thing we remember was waking up on the Mothership and having strange implants on various parts of our bodies and holding what we later learned was to be called our "quad".
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Re: How and When did Church take over your "self"

Post by Palerider » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:27 am

Hugh Pinnock
April 1980 Gen. Conf.

"The great programs we have for our little ones assure them from their first consciousness that we love them and desire to teach them the truth."

Let the programming begin!!!

:(
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Re: How and When did Church take over your "self"

Post by alas » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:28 pm

Palerider wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:37 pm
I'm beginning to think that this discussion is more about the church's mistaking "uniformity" for "unity" in the Spirit.

I do think there is a place for unity in the saving doctrines of the Gospel. But like the Pharisees of old, they (leadership) have replaced spiritual unity with a web of laws and pseudo-ordinances that have a "form of godliness" but are in reality just the commandments of men. Thus they attempt to form all men in their own image and to create women after their own ideal of how women should behave.

Step outside of those parameters and you start to make leadership feel "uncomfortable". And you are perceived as a threat....a problem. A disease that has to be diagnosed, healed or cut out.

And thus, the "self" which could be entirely acceptable to the true God, is sacrificed on the alter of "uniformity" to the false gods of legalism and flesh worship.

Worshipping the flesh is not limited to sexual sin but is equally applied to the adoration of mortal men who have usurped what should be only God's place in our lives.
Recently I read, somewhere on the Mormon Blogernackle a really good discussion of the difference between obedience and conformity that ties in exactly to your thoughts here. I would find it and link if I could do links on my iPad. Don't own a computer. But since I can't link to the discussion, I will paraphrase. Basically, with obedience, it is based on love. I want to obey God because I love God. And I know God loves me and wants what is best for me. Conformity is based in duty, shame, and fear. I conform to the rules and culture of the church because they will reject me if I don't. I will be loved less if I am different. I obey the prophet because I will be punished with banning by my tribe if I don't. The prophet is a stand in for God and is demanding "obedience" but they are really talking about conformity. They discussed how the church has been moving more and more toward conformity and seems to have forgotten what real obedience is about. They even said things such as "step outside these parameters and leadership starts to become uncomfortable."

So, tying the two discussions together, with obedience to God, you can be your authentic self and no one is going to punish you or shame you. The church does not own your self because you are free to obey and suffer whatever consequences, or disobey and suffer consequences. You are not shamed for who you are because God made you. You are never shamed for normal feelings or behavior because God does not shame people for how he made them.



To answer the question. I think I managed to maintain my self. Poor little self was angry, damaged, worthless, but still kicking and screaming about how I was treated, and rebelling agains teachings I didn't like. I never really was TBM, because there was always this part of me that rebelled against Joseph Smith and saw him for the arrogant twit that he was. I rebelled against polygamy, and hatedBrigham Young. I saw him as a good leader and saw how the territory of Utah could not have been settled without his strong fist coming down on people, so, you could say I admired the tyrant. So, since there was always this small rebellious part of me that refused to worship Joseph Smith, I don't think I ever completely lost my self to the machine, but I for sure got chewed to bits by that machine. My self was so damaged that I was unable to trust my own judgement and leave. Perhaps if I had grown up ANYWHERE but Provo, Utah, I would have had enough outside influence to strengthen that poor damaged doubter. But as it was, I fell in love with an RM, married in the temple, had kids, and spent years trying to heal that damaged child who felt like no one cared or liked her and that even God didn't like girls.

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